The Elshamah mega-thread

[Elshamah]

Re: Rubisco is the most important enyzme on the planet.

How do proponents of naturalism explain how natural mechanisms would have favoured a protein complex the function of which was to prevent a still-useless Rubisco small subunit from folding outside the chloroplast? Before it evolved a way to get the protein inside, there would be no benefit from keeping it unfolded outside. How could blind chance ‘know’ it needed to cause large subunit polypeptides to fold ‘correctly’ and to keep them from clumping? It could not ‘anticipate’ the ‘correct’ conformation before the protein became useful.

magic

Let's play hypothetical for a min. I'll pretend there was a designer with the ability to confound us and made all the intricacies and complexity involved in cellular interaction and creation and you reconcile that with the rest of the story.

How do you reconcile that entity with the one who decided putting testicles outside the abdomen was a feature? Because THAT was a brilliant decision. I'm by no means a mental giant but there are hundreds if not thousands of these "design features" in every species that even I couldn't have missed and only make sense in light of evolution. Some of which we can't even say the creator didn't know about because it IS done in other species. So which is this entity? The one that "created" the intricacies and complexity or the moron who didn't realize balls get smashed? Or do you propose that he/she/it had their brains sucked out once the cell was complete and hasn't been heard from since?

no testicle failure. Quite the contrary is the case.

Evolution or design? You will be amazed at the complexity and different systems needed to be in place for human reproduction to be possible!

http://goddidit.org/human-reproduction/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaGfCq8a4uE


women is born with a limited number of eggs and generally releases only one egg per cycle.
Question : without an egg release fertilisation is impossible. Therefore, would this system not have to be in place right from the beginning ?
Sperms develop only 3 to 5 degrees lower than body temperature. The scrotum expands/contracts to get further/closer from the body. This keeps the sperms at the right temperature in order that they do not die.
Question : would this system not have to be fully in place right from the beginning ? Otherwise, no sperms would be produced.
Sperms and eggs have each 23 chromosomes, while the other cells in humans have 46 chromosomes.
Question : how did evolution produce these highly specialized cells, which have only half of the number of chromosomes, than all the other cells ?
The gender of the baby is decided by the sperm. Sperms either have x , or y chromosomes. The egg is always x.xx = girl , xy = boy.
Wouldn't have both the x and the y chromosome sperm have to have been in place at the same time ? Otherwise only one gender would be produced.
To have any hope of reproduction first men would have to be able to pass semen from his body to the woman's body.
Question : wouldn't this system have to be in place right from the beginning ? Also , what intermediary system could there be ? Either the sperm was able to leave the body, or it was not.
Sperm must be able to swim. Sperm are highly specialized for the task to fertilize the egg which includes being able to swim.
Question : would sperm not need to be able to swim right from the beginning ? Without being able to swim, it could not reach the egg.
Sperm must find the egg. Even if they can swim, they have the hudge task to find the egg. Fortunately, the egg releases progesterone as a chemoattractant that points the sperm the way to the egg.
Questions : Wouldn't this system need to be in place from the beginning ? How did evolution produce sperms that can sense progesterone ? And know that they have to follow it to find the egg ?
Sperm has the correct enzyme on the head to be able to penetrate the egg wall. When a sperm reaches the egg it releases special enzymes which break down the tougher wall of the egg. Whithout these enzymes, the egg could not fertilize the egg.
Question: wouldnt this system have to be in place from the beginning ?
Egg outer wall hardens in order another sperm not being able to penetrating the same egg. Fertilisation by more than one sperm inevitably leads to the death of the embryo. Shortly after the egg enters the sperm, the outer membrane hardens, and becomes impenetrable to an other.
Question: would this system not have to be in place right from the beginning?
Sperm and egg must fuse in order their nuclei to become one. The nucleus of the egg fuses with the nucleus of the sperm uniting both genetic materials to become a new individual.
Question: How can evolution explain this ?
Fertilized egg must attach to the uterus wall. The newly fertilized egg is covered in the molecule " i selectin " which enables it to stick to the uterus wall.
Question : wouldn't this molecule have to be in place right from the beginning ? Without it, the egg would not attach, and the pregnancy would end.
The placenta is a extremely complex piece of equipment. it acts as the lung, kidney, and digestive system of the baby.
Question: how does evolution explain the placenta ? Without it, the baby would not survive. Would it not have to be there right from the beginning with all its functions in place ?
Before birth, the baby gets its oxygen from the placenta. Its lungs are in a collapsed state, and receive little blood supply. Most of the blood destined for the lungs is diverted through a hole between the top chambers of the heart. All of this has to change within the first moments of birth. Sensors in the baby's skin and within its blood vessels detect temperature drops and rising CO2 level which makes the baby take its first breath.
The babys lungs are coated in a fluid called surfactant which significantly reduces the force needed to inflate the lungs. The inflated lungs reduce the pressure in the heart which in turn closes the hole in the heart which in turn sends more blood to the lungs.
Questions : Wouldnt the sensors and programming to stimulate the first breath not had to have been there right from the beginning ?
Conclusion : The human reproductive process is a complicated process of systems that could not have come about gradually.
Evolution, or design ? definitively, design.

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t1685-sex-the-queen-of-problems-in-evolutionary-biology#2637

 

[Elshamah]

Re: Rubisco is the most important enyzme on the planet.

This is something that has always baffled me. Even if the intelligent design creationists were correct in their assertion that we believe [insert process/organ] came about because of random chance, that would still be a better explanation than magic/miracles. We have evidence that random events do happen and can create things. We have no evidence that magic/miracles have ever occurred.

Darwins doubt, pg.268

What natural selection lacks, intelligent design—purposive, goal-directed selection—provides. Rational agents can arrange both matter and symbols with distant goals in mind. In using language, the human mind routinely "finds" or generates highly improbable linguistic sequences to convey an intended or preconceived idea. In the process of thought, functional objectives precede and constrain the selection of words, sounds, and symbols to generate functional (and meaningful) sequences from a vast ensemble of meaningless alternative possible combinations of sound or symbol. Similarly, the construction of complex technological objects and products, such as bridges, circuit boards, engines, and software, results from the application of goal-directed constraints. Indeed, in all functionally integrated complex systems where the cause is known by experience or observation, designing engineers or other intelligent agents applied constraints on the possible arrangements of matter to limit possibilities in order to produce improbable forms, sequences, or structures. Rational agents have repeatedly demonstrated the capacity to constrain possible outcomes to actualize improbable but initially unrealized future functions. Repeated experience affirms that intelligent agents (minds) uniquely possess such causal powers. Analysis of the problem of the origin of biological information, therefore, exposes a deficiency in the causal powers of natural selection and other undirected evolutionary mechanisms that corresponds precisely to powers that agents are uniquely known to possess. Intelligent agents have foresight. Such agents can determine or select functional goals before they are physically instantiated. They can devise or select material means to accomplish those ends from among an array of possibilities. They can then actualize those goals in accord with a preconceived design plan or set of functional requirements. Rational agents can constrain combinatorial space with distant information-rich outcomes in mind. The causal powers that natural selection lacks—by definition—are associated with the attributes of consciousness and rationality—with purposive intelligence. Thus, by invoking intelligent design to overcome a vast combinatorial search problem and to explain the origin of new specified information, contemporary advocates of intelligent design are not positing an arbitrary explanatory element unmotivated by a consideration of the evidence.

Irreducible complexity is not based on a negative, namely that there is no evidence for a naturalistic pathway. Rather than that, it makes a positive claim, which can be falsified, upon : (a) gene knockout, (b) reverse engineering, (c) examining homologous systems, and (d) sequencing the genome of the biochemical structure. ( Dennis Jones ) Gene knockout has been done several times, providing evidence that the organism was unable to replace given gene or protein by natural means. 1 The absence of evidence that evolution is not capable to replace given part is empirical evidence, that falsifies the claim of the ToE. Its therefore not justified to claim the inference is a argument of ignorance. Quit the contrary is the case. As for example, if i ask you : can you change a us$100 bill ? and you answer: sorry, i have no smaller bills. You open your wallet, and and its confirmed, no change in your wallet, then you have proven that you have indeed no smaller bills. You have proven a negative, which is not a argument of ignorance, since you checked and got a empirical proof.

If proponents of intelligent design were arguing in the preceding manner, they would be guilty of arguing from ignorance. But the argument takes the following form:

Premise One: Despite a thorough search, no material causes have been discovered that demonstrate the power to produce large amounts of specified information, irreducible and interdependent biological systems.
Premise Two: Intelligent causes have demonstrated the power to produce large amounts of specified information, irreducible and interdependent systems of all sorts.
Conclusion: Intelligent design constitutes the best, most causally adequate, explanation for the information and irreducible complexity in the cell, and interdependence of proteins, organelles, and bodyparts, and even of animals and plants, aka moths and flowers, for example.

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t2099-irreducible-complexity-is-not-a-argument-from-ignorance#3676

 

[SpecialFrog]

Re: Rubisco is the most important enyzme on the planet.

Hey Elshamah, try actually engaging and not spamming.

 

[Collecemall]

Re: Rubisco is the most important enyzme on the planet.

Let's play hypothetical for a min. I'll pretend there was a designer with the ability to confound us and made all the intricacies and complexity involved in cellular interaction and creation and you reconcile that with the rest of the story.

How do you reconcile that entity with the one who decided putting testicles outside the abdomen was a feature? Because THAT was a brilliant decision. I'm by no means a mental giant but there are hundreds if not thousands of these "design features" in every species that even I couldn't have missed and only make sense in light of evolution. Some of which we can't even say the creator didn't know about because it IS done in other species. So which is this entity? The one that "created" the intricacies and complexity or the moron who didn't realize balls get smashed? Or do you propose that he/she/it had their brains sucked out once the cell was complete and hasn't been heard from since?

no testicle failure. Quite the contrary is the case.

Evolution or design? You will be amazed at the complexity and different systems needed to be in place for human reproduction to be possible!

http://goddidit.org/human-reproduction/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaGfCq8a4uE


women is born with a limited number of eggs and generally releases only one egg per cycle.
Question : without an egg release fertilisation is impossible. Therefore, would this system not have to be in place right from the beginning ?
Sperms develop only 3 to 5 degrees lower than body temperature. The scrotum expands/contracts to get further/closer from the body. This keeps the sperms at the right temperature in order that they do not die.
Question : would this system not have to be fully in place right from the beginning ? Otherwise, no sperms would be produced.
Sperms and eggs have each 23 chromosomes, while the other cells in humans have 46 chromosomes.
Question : how did evolution produce these highly specialized cells, which have only half of the number of chromosomes, than all the other cells ?
The gender of the baby is decided by the sperm. Sperms either have x , or y chromosomes. The egg is always x.xx = girl , xy = boy.
Wouldn't have both the x and the y chromosome sperm have to have been in place at the same time ? Otherwise only one gender would be produced.
To have any hope of reproduction first men would have to be able to pass semen from his body to the woman's body.
Question : wouldn't this system have to be in place right from the beginning ? Also , what intermediary system could there be ? Either the sperm was able to leave the body, or it was not.
Sperm must be able to swim. Sperm are highly specialized for the task to fertilize the egg which includes being able to swim.
Question : would sperm not need to be able to swim right from the beginning ? Without being able to swim, it could not reach the egg.
Sperm must find the egg. Even if they can swim, they have the hudge task to find the egg. Fortunately, the egg releases progesterone as a chemoattractant that points the sperm the way to the egg.
Questions : Wouldn't this system need to be in place from the beginning ? How did evolution produce sperms that can sense progesterone ? And know that they have to follow it to find the egg ?
Sperm has the correct enzyme on the head to be able to penetrate the egg wall. When a sperm reaches the egg it releases special enzymes which break down the tougher wall of the egg. Whithout these enzymes, the egg could not fertilize the egg.
Question: wouldnt this system have to be in place from the beginning ?
Egg outer wall hardens in order another sperm not being able to penetrating the same egg. Fertilisation by more than one sperm inevitably leads to the death of the embryo. Shortly after the egg enters the sperm, the outer membrane hardens, and becomes impenetrable to an other.
Question: would this system not have to be in place right from the beginning?
Sperm and egg must fuse in order their nuclei to become one. The nucleus of the egg fuses with the nucleus of the sperm uniting both genetic materials to become a new individual.
Question: How can evolution explain this ?
Fertilized egg must attach to the uterus wall. The newly fertilized egg is covered in the molecule " i selectin " which enables it to stick to the uterus wall.
Question : wouldn't this molecule have to be in place right from the beginning ? Without it, the egg would not attach, and the pregnancy would end.
The placenta is a extremely complex piece of equipment. it acts as the lung, kidney, and digestive system of the baby.
Question: how does evolution explain the placenta ? Without it, the baby would not survive. Would it not have to be there right from the beginning with all its functions in place ?
Before birth, the baby gets its oxygen from the placenta. Its lungs are in a collapsed state, and receive little blood supply. Most of the blood destined for the lungs is diverted through a hole between the top chambers of the heart. All of this has to change within the first moments of birth. Sensors in the baby's skin and within its blood vessels detect temperature drops and rising CO2 level which makes the baby take its first breath.
The babys lungs are coated in a fluid called surfactant which significantly reduces the force needed to inflate the lungs. The inflated lungs reduce the pressure in the heart which in turn closes the hole in the heart which in turn sends more blood to the lungs.
Questions : Wouldnt the sensors and programming to stimulate the first breath not had to have been there right from the beginning ?
Conclusion : The human reproductive process is a complicated process of systems that could not have come about gradually.
Evolution, or design ? definitively, design.

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t1685-sex-the-queen-of-problems-in-evolutionary-biology#2637

Is copy pasta all you have? There are answers to most of these but why would I bother? Why do you even post here? It's certainly not for discussion. So why? Is it just to advertise your own echo chamber that nobody else bothers to inhabit?

 

[Rumraket]

Re: Rubisco is the most important enyzme on the planet.

Let's play hypothetical for a min. I'll pretend there was a designer with the ability to confound us and made all the intricacies and complexity involved in cellular interaction and creation and you reconcile that with the rest of the story.

How do you reconcile that entity with the one who decided putting testicles outside the abdomen was a feature? Because THAT was a brilliant decision. I'm by no means a mental giant but there are hundreds if not thousands of these "design features" in every species that even I couldn't have missed and only make sense in light of evolution. Some of which we can't even say the creator didn't know about because it IS done in other species. So which is this entity? The one that "created" the intricacies and complexity or the moron who didn't realize balls get smashed? Or do you propose that he/she/it had their brains sucked out once the cell was complete and hasn't been heard from since?

no testicle failure. Quite the contrary is the case.

Evolution or design? You will be amazed at the complexity and different systems needed to be in place for human reproduction to be possible!

http://goddidit.org/human-reproduction/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaGfCq8a4uE


women is born with a limited number of eggs and generally releases only one egg per cycle.
Question : without an egg release fertilisation is impossible. Therefore, would this system not have to be in place right from the beginning ?
Sperms develop only 3 to 5 degrees lower than body temperature. The scrotum expands/contracts to get further/closer from the body. This keeps the sperms at the right temperature in order that they do not die.
Question : would this system not have to be fully in place right from the beginning ? Otherwise, no sperms would be produced.
Sperms and eggs have each 23 chromosomes, while the other cells in humans have 46 chromosomes.
Question : how did evolution produce these highly specialized cells, which have only half of the number of chromosomes, than all the other cells ?
The gender of the baby is decided by the sperm. Sperms either have x , or y chromosomes. The egg is always x.xx = girl , xy = boy.
Wouldn't have both the x and the y chromosome sperm have to have been in place at the same time ? Otherwise only one gender would be produced.
To have any hope of reproduction first men would have to be able to pass semen from his body to the woman's body.
Question : wouldn't this system have to be in place right from the beginning ? Also , what intermediary system could there be ? Either the sperm was able to leave the body, or it was not.
Sperm must be able to swim. Sperm are highly specialized for the task to fertilize the egg which includes being able to swim.
Question : would sperm not need to be able to swim right from the beginning ? Without being able to swim, it could not reach the egg.
Sperm must find the egg. Even if they can swim, they have the hudge task to find the egg. Fortunately, the egg releases progesterone as a chemoattractant that points the sperm the way to the egg.
Questions : Wouldn't this system need to be in place from the beginning ? How did evolution produce sperms that can sense progesterone ? And know that they have to follow it to find the egg ?
Sperm has the correct enzyme on the head to be able to penetrate the egg wall. When a sperm reaches the egg it releases special enzymes which break down the tougher wall of the egg. Whithout these enzymes, the egg could not fertilize the egg.
Question: wouldnt this system have to be in place from the beginning ?
Egg outer wall hardens in order another sperm not being able to penetrating the same egg. Fertilisation by more than one sperm inevitably leads to the death of the embryo. Shortly after the egg enters the sperm, the outer membrane hardens, and becomes impenetrable to an other.
Question: would this system not have to be in place right from the beginning?
Sperm and egg must fuse in order their nuclei to become one. The nucleus of the egg fuses with the nucleus of the sperm uniting both genetic materials to become a new individual.
Question: How can evolution explain this ?
Fertilized egg must attach to the uterus wall. The newly fertilized egg is covered in the molecule " i selectin " which enables it to stick to the uterus wall.
Question : wouldn't this molecule have to be in place right from the beginning ? Without it, the egg would not attach, and the pregnancy would end.
The placenta is a extremely complex piece of equipment. it acts as the lung, kidney, and digestive system of the baby.
Question: how does evolution explain the placenta ? Without it, the baby would not survive. Would it not have to be there right from the beginning with all its functions in place ?
Before birth, the baby gets its oxygen from the placenta. Its lungs are in a collapsed state, and receive little blood supply. Most of the blood destined for the lungs is diverted through a hole between the top chambers of the heart. All of this has to change within the first moments of birth. Sensors in the baby's skin and within its blood vessels detect temperature drops and rising CO2 level which makes the baby take its first breath.
The babys lungs are coated in a fluid called surfactant which significantly reduces the force needed to inflate the lungs. The inflated lungs reduce the pressure in the heart which in turn closes the hole in the heart which in turn sends more blood to the lungs.
Questions : Wouldnt the sensors and programming to stimulate the first breath not had to have been there right from the beginning ?
Conclusion : The human reproductive process is a complicated process of systems that could not have come about gradually.
Evolution, or design ? definitively, design.

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t1685-sex-the-queen-of-problems-in-evolutionary-biology#2637

Already been over this. Same fundamental mistake you make every time. Evolution demonstrably produces multi-component irreducibly complex structures, in fact we predict they will emerge through the evolutionary process and we have seen it happen in experiment without any guidance or design.

Irreducible complexity is not a successful argument against evolution for reasons already stated in your three other threads.

In fact we have observed the origin of an irreducibly complex pathway for the utilization of citrate under aerobic conditions in Richard Lenski's long-term evolution experiment with E coli.

A gene duplication spawned a copy of the citrate transporter in vicinity of a regulatory element that is only active under aerobic conditions. This allows the cells to use citrate when oxygen is present, which they normally cannot do.

If you remove the duplicate gene, the cell can no longer use citrate with oxygen present. If you remove the regulatory element, the citrate transporter fails to activate when oxygen is present, and the cell cannot use citrate and will die if there is no other food available. So there you go, a two-component, irreducibly complex system that requires both components to be present to work. If you remove one of the components, the system stops working. So it is irreducibly complex and it evolved.

If it is irreducibly complex it can still evolve. In fact we expect that the evolutionary process will create irreducibly complex structures. Do you understand this? If evolution is true, there should be irreducibly complex structures in living organism.

 

[MarsCydonia]

Re: Rubisco is the most important enyzme on the planet.

Women is born with a limited number of eggs and generally releases only one egg per cycle.
Question : without an egg release fertilisation is impossible. Therefore, would this system not have to be in place right from the beginning ?

The cdesign proponentsists answer: it happened by magic

Sperms develop only 3 to 5 degrees lower than body temperature. The scrotum expands/contracts to get further/closer from the body. This keeps the sperms at the right temperature in order that they do not die.
Question : would this system not have to be fully in place right from the beginning ? Otherwise, no sperms would be produced.

The cdesign proponentsists answer: it happened by magic

Sperms and eggs have each 23 chromosomes, while the other cells in humans have 46 chromosomes.
Question : how did evolution produce these highly specialized cells, which have only half of the number of chromosomes, than all the other cells ?

The cdesign proponentsists answer: it happened by magic

Etc.

All to lead to:

Conclusion : The human reproductive process is a complicated process of systems that could not have come about gradually.
Evolution, or design ?

The cdesign proponentsists answer: I personally find it incredulous that the human reproductive process could arrive by natural processes so I will fill the gaps in our knowledge by the magic of the god I prefer to believe in.

Magic! It explains everything...

 

[MarsCydonia]

Re: Rubisco is the most important enyzme on the planet.

At least, thank you Elshamah for the inspiration of a new topic under the Creationism/ID board. As a cdesign proponentsist, I would certainly value your input.

 

[MarsCydonia]

Re: Rubisco is the most important enyzme on the planet.

If proponents of intelligent design were arguing in the preceding manner, they would be guilty of arguing from ignorance. But the argument takes the following form:

Premise One: Despite a thorough search, no material causes have been discovered that demonstrate the power to produce large amounts of specified information, irreducible and interdependent biological systems.
Premise Two: Intelligent causes have demonstrated the power to produce large amounts of specified information, irreducible and interdependent systems of all sorts.
Conclusion: Intelligent design constitutes the best, most causally adequate, explanation for the information and irreducible complexity in the cell, and interdependence of proteins, organelles, and bodyparts, and even of animals and plants, aka moths and flowers, for example.

"no material causes have been discovered that" is arguing from ignorance.

Furthermore, your first premise is flawed and your second premise is flawed. So, inexcapably, your conclusion is flawed. Can you find the flaws on your own?

 

[SpecialFrog]

Re: Rubisco is the most important enyzme on the planet.

If proponents of intelligent design were arguing in the preceding manner, they would be guilty of arguing from ignorance. But the argument takes the following form:

Premise One: Despite a thorough search, no material causes have been discovered that demonstrate the power to produce large amounts of specified information, irreducible and interdependent biological systems.
Premise Two: Intelligent causes have demonstrated the power to produce large amounts of specified information, irreducible and interdependent systems of all sorts.
Conclusion: Intelligent design constitutes the best, most causally adequate, explanation for the information and irreducible complexity in the cell, and interdependence of proteins, organelles, and bodyparts, and even of animals and plants, aka moths and flowers, for example.

"no material causes have been discovered that" is arguing from ignorance.

Furthermore, your first premise is flawed and your second premise is flawed. So, inexcapably, your conclusion is flawed. Can you find the flaws on your own?

I bet you he can find some copypasta that claims that it isn't an argument from ignorance.

 

[MarsCydonia]

Re: Rubisco is the most important enyzme on the planet.

I bet you he can find some copypasta that claims that it isn't an argument from ignorance.

From the man who provided us with "justified special pleading"? I would not be surprised.

 

[Rumraket]

Re: Rubisco is the most important enyzme on the planet.

He will just write it on his blog first, then copy-paste it from there to here. :facepalm:

 

[Elshamah]

The amazing fatty acid synthase nano factories, and origin o

The amazing fatty acid synthase nano factories, and origin of life scenarios

The four basic categories of molecules for building life are carbohydrates, lipids, proteins, and nucleic acids.  Here we will give a closer look at fatty acids,  constituents of lipids, and their biosynthesis.

Lipids (‘fats’) are essential for the formation of a cell membrane that contains the cell contents, as well as for other cell functions. The cell membrane, comprised of several different complex lipids, is an essential part of a free-living cell that can reproduce itself.

Lipids have much higher energy density than sugars or amino acids, so their formation in any chemical soup is a problem for origin of life scenarios (high energy compounds are thermodynamically much less likely to form than lower energy compounds).  Fatty acids are hydrocarbon chains of various lengths. The ability to synthesize a variety of lipids is essential to all organisms.  Fatty acid synthesis requires the oxidation of the co-factor NADPH.

The major source of NADPH in animals and other non-photosynthetic organisms is the pentose phosphate pathway. Due to the complexity of the metabolic pathways, it has been argued that metabolism‐like chemical reaction sequences are unlikely to be catalysed by simple environmental catalysts.


This constitutes a serious problem for naturalistic explanations of the origin of life. The pentose phosphate pathway requires 7 enzymes, and is interdependent with glycolysis , since the beginning molecule for the pentose phosphate pathway is glucose-6-P, which is the second intermediate metabolite in glycolysis. 

Eukaryotic cells face a dilemma in providing suitable amounts of substrate for fatty acid synthesis. Sufficient quantities of acetyl-CoA, malonyl-CoA, and NADPH must be generated in the cytosol for fatty acid synthesis. Malonyl-CoA is made by carboxylation of acetyl-CoA, so the problem reduces to generating sufficient acetyl-CoA and NADPH. There are three principal sources of acetyl-CoA. The acetyl-CoA derived from amino acid degradation is normally insufficient for fatty acid biosynthesis, and the acetyl-CoA produced by pyruvate dehydrogenase and by fatty acid oxidation cannot cross the mitochondrial membrane to participate directly in fatty acid synthesis. Instead, acetyl-CoA is linked  with  oxaloacetate to form citrate, which is transported from the mitochondrial matrix to the cytosol by  citrate carriers (CIC),  nuclear-encoded proteins located in the mitochondrial inner membrane, members of the mitochondrial carrier family.  Biosynthesis of oxaloacetate requires  malate dehydrogenase enzymes or, in plants, pyruvate carboxylase enzymes.

So all these listed functional units and substrates are required in the synthesis process. They are essential, constituting a interdependent interlocked system of the cell.

As Bruce Alberts said in 1998, the biology of the future was going to be the study of molecular machines: “the entire cell can be viewed as a factory that contains an elaborate network of interlocking assembly lines, each of which is composed of a set of large protein machines.”  One of those machines is like a mini-factory in itself. It’s called fatty acid synthase.

The first step of fatty acid biosynthesis requires the participation of  malonyl-CoA, a three-carbon intermediate.  The formation of malonyl-CoA from acetyl-CoA is an irreversible process, catalyzed by acetyl-CoA carboxylase enzymes. a multifunctional protein with 3 subunits, which is carefully regulated.

In the second step, fatty acid synthase ( FAS) proteins come into action. These are the little heroes of this article. FAS most striking feature is the “high degree of architectural complexity” – some 48 active sites, complete with moving parts

Which organism has one of the most elaborate fatty-acid machines of all?  The surprising answer: fungi. 
Perhaps the most striking feature of fungal FAS is its high degree of architectural complexity, in which 48 functional centers exist in a single ... particle.  Detailed structural information is essential for delineating how this complex particle coordinates the reactions involved in many steps of synthesis of fatty acids.... The six alpha subunits form a central wheel in the assembly, and the beta subunits form domes on the top and bottom of the wheel, creating six reaction chambers within which each Acyl Carrier Protein (ACP) can reach the six active sites through surprisingly modest movements.

The crystal structure of yeast FAS reveals that this large, macromolecular assembly functions as a six-chambered reactor for fatty acid synthesis.  Each of the six chambers functions independently and has in its chamber wall all of the catalytic units required for fatty acid priming, elongation, and termination, while one substrate-shuttling component, ACP, is located inside each chamber and functions like a swinging arm.  Surprisingly, however, the step at which the reactor is activated must occur before the complete assembly of the particle since the PPT domain that attaches the pantetheine arm to ACP lies outside the assembly,inaccessible to ACP that lies inside.  Remarkably, the architectural complexity of the FAS particle results in the simplicity of the reaction mechanisms for fatty acid synthesis in fungi.

To imagine this level of precision and master-controlled processing on a level this small, cannot help but induce a profound sense of wonder and awe.  Here, all this time, this machine has been helping to keep living things functioning and we didn’t even know the details till now.

The fatty acids are useless without the amino acids, and vice versa .  Even if some kind of metabolic cycle were to be envisioned under semi-realistic conditions, how did this elaborate machine, composed of amino acids with precise charge distributions, arise?  It’s not just the machine, it’s the blueprints and construction process that must be explained.  What blind process led to the precise placement of active sites that process their inputs in a programmed sequence?  What put them into a structure with shared walls where six reaction chambers can work independently?  All this complexity, involving thousands of precision amino acids in FAS  has to be coded in DNA, then built by the formidably complex translation process, then assembled together in the right order, or FAS won’t work.  But the storage, retrieval, translation and construction systems all need the fatty acids, too, or they won’t work.

We are witnessing an interdependent system of mind-boggling complexity that defies any explanation besides intelligent design.  Yes, Bruce Alberts, “as it turns out, we can walk and we can talk because the chemistry that makes life possible is much more elaborate and sophisticated than anything we students had ever considered.”  We have tended to “vastly underestimate the sophistication of many of these remarkable devices.”

The closer they look, the more wondrous the cell gets.  Who would have thought that the requirement to make these fatty acids would require machinery with moving parts and reaction chambers?  Who would have imagined their surfaces would be covered with complex proteins that regulate the production inside?  Who would have realized that fat was so important, the cell had complex assembly plants to build it?  Fat is almost a mild cussword in our vocabulary, but it is another class of molecular building blocks we couldn’t live without.  Fats, sugars, proteins and nucleic acids all work together in life, from humans to lowly fungi.  Each class of molecules has immense variety, each is essential, and each is manufactured to spec by precision machinery.  What a wonderful post-Darwinian world.

How do origin of life researchers envision the arise of these hyper complex nano factories and assembly lines to make fatty acids ? The scientific paper The lipid world says :

Self-assembly of amphiphilic molecules into complex supramolecular structures is spontaneous. The plausibility that such structures were present in the prebiotic environment is supported by the occurrence of amphiphilic molecules in carbonaceous meteorites and the demonstration that they can assemble into membrane vesicles. 

This paper shows the helplessness of proponents of  natural prebiotic origin of lipids. Its a hudge gap between above explanation, and the arise of hypercomplex multyenzymatic proteins, which produce fatty acids through advanced, regulated, precise, coordinated multistep factory assembly-line like robotic  procedures. 

I conclude that the make of  essential fatty acids, ingredients of cell membranes, requires interdependent irreducible complex procedures,  several different metabolic pathways in order to make the substrates and produce the energy used in the process, several enzymes, the whole machinery to make the assembly proteins and enzymes. Since this constitutes a complex interlocked process, it could not be due to step by step evolutionary manner. Fatty acids, constituents of the cell membranes, had to exist right from the start for life to arise. This fact makes the design inference the most rational one.

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t2168-the-amazing-fatty-acid-synthase-nano-factories-and-origin-of-life-scenarios

Following parts are involved direct or indirectly in fatty acid synthesis, and must exist in order for fatty acids to be able to be synthesized :

the cytosol
NADPH.

enzymes of the Pentose phosphate pathway enzymes :

Glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase
6-phosphogluconolactonase
Phosphogluconate dehydrogenase
Ribose-5-phosphate isomerase
Phosphopentose epimerase
Transketolase
Transaldolase

of the glycolysis pathway, at least : hexokinase enzymes

oxaloacetate
phophopantetheinyl transferases
citrate
mitochondria
The citrate carrier (CiC)
the nucleus
malate dehydrogenase enzymes or pyruvate carboxylase enzymes
acetyl-CoA carboxylase enzymes
Acyl Carrier Proteins
FAS fatty acid synthase proteins
The citric acid cycle
ATP

 

[Prolescum]

Re: Rubisco is the most important enyzme on the planet.

Elshamah, you've been warned about spamming this forum with essentially the same discussions. Your new topic has been merged here, and any new threads will now be put in a moderation queue to ensure your adherence as you can no longer be trusted to follow the rules of your own volition.


When you have spent some time actually engaging other users instead of posting reams of copy/pasta, we will reconsider giving back your privileges. On the other hand, if you simply spam this thread continually without entering the discussion, the thread will be locked and you'll find yourself a spectral guest in this house.

 

[Rumraket]

Re: The amazing fatty acid synthase nano factories, and orig

The amazing fatty acid synthase nano factories, and origin of life scenarios

The four basic categories of molecules for building life are carbohydrates, lipids, proteins, and nucleic acids.  Here we will give a closer look at fatty acids,  constituents of lipids, and their biosynthesis.

Lipids (‘fats’) are essential for the formation of a cell membrane that contains the cell contents, as well as for other cell functions. The cell membrane, comprised of several different complex lipids, is an essential part of a free-living cell that can reproduce itself.

*snipped for size*

Already been over this. Same fundamental mistake you make every time. Evolution demonstrably produces multi-component irreducibly complex structures, in fact we predict they will emerge through the evolutionary process and we have seen it happen in experiment without any guidance or design.

Irreducible complexity is not a successful argument against evolution for reasons already stated in your three other threads.

In fact we have observed the origin of an irreducibly complex pathway for the utilization of citrate under aerobic conditions in Richard Lenski's long-term evolution experiment with E coli.

A gene duplication spawned a copy of the citrate transporter in vicinity of a regulatory element that is only active under aerobic conditions. This allows the cells to use citrate when oxygen is present, which they normally cannot do.

If you remove the duplicate gene, the cell can no longer use citrate with oxygen present. If you remove the regulatory element, the citrate transporter fails to activate when oxygen is present, and the cell cannot use citrate and will die if there is no other food available. So there you go, a two-component, irreducibly complex system that requires both components to be present to work. If you remove one of the components, the system stops working. So it is irreducibly complex and it evolved.

If it is irreducibly complex it can still evolve. In fact we expect that the evolutionary process will create irreducibly complex structures. Do you understand this? If evolution is true, there should be irreducibly complex structures in living organism.

 

[red]

Re: The amazing fatty acid synthase nano factories, and orig

The amazing fatty acid synthase nano factories, and origin of life scenarios

Deja vu

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

Re: The amazing fatty acid synthase nano factories, and orig

The amazing fatty acid synthase nano factories, and origin of life scenarios

Deja vu

:lol:

Looks like curtailing Elshamah's posts did not go over well with him. I love the first response he got. One wonders how long he will last on that forum.

 

[Elshamah]

Re: Proteintransport into Mitochondria is irreducible comple

The amazing fatty acid synthase nano factories, and origin of life scenarios

The four basic categories of molecules for building life are carbohydrates, lipids, proteins, and nucleic acids.  Here we will give a closer look at fatty acids,  constituents of lipids, and their biosynthesis.

Lipids (‘fats’) are essential for the formation of a cell membrane that contains the cell contents, as well as for other cell functions. The cell membrane, comprised of several different complex lipids, is an essential part of a free-living cell that can reproduce itself.

Lipids have much higher energy density than sugars or amino acids, so their formation in any chemical soup is a problem for origin of life scenarios (high energy compounds are thermodynamically much less likely to form than lower energy compounds).  Fatty acids are hydrocarbon chains of various lengths. The ability to synthesize a variety of lipids is essential to all organisms.  Fatty acid synthesis requires the oxidation of the co-factor NADPH.

The major source of NADPH in animals and other non-photosynthetic organisms is the pentose phosphate pathway. Due to the complexity of the metabolic pathways, it has been argued that metabolism‐like chemical reaction sequences are unlikely to be catalysed by simple environmental catalysts.


This constitutes a serious problem for naturalistic explanations of the origin of life. The pentose phosphate pathway requires 7 enzymes, and is interdependent with glycolysis , since the beginning molecule for the pentose phosphate pathway is glucose-6-P, which is the second intermediate metabolite in glycolysis. 

Eukaryotic cells face a dilemma in providing suitable amounts of substrate for fatty acid synthesis. Sufficient quantities of acetyl-CoA, malonyl-CoA, and NADPH must be generated in the cytosol for fatty acid synthesis. Malonyl-CoA is made by carboxylation of acetyl-CoA, so the problem reduces to generating sufficient acetyl-CoA and NADPH. There are three principal sources of acetyl-CoA. The acetyl-CoA derived from amino acid degradation is normally insufficient for fatty acid biosynthesis, and the acetyl-CoA produced by pyruvate dehydrogenase and by fatty acid oxidation cannot cross the mitochondrial membrane to participate directly in fatty acid synthesis. Instead, acetyl-CoA is linked  with  oxaloacetate to form citrate, which is transported from the mitochondrial matrix to the cytosol by  citrate carriers (CIC),  nuclear-encoded proteins located in the mitochondrial inner membrane, members of the mitochondrial carrier family.  Biosynthesis of oxaloacetate requires  malate dehydrogenase enzymes or, in plants, pyruvate carboxylase enzymes.

So all these listed functional units and substrates are required in the synthesis process. They are essential, constituting a interdependent interlocked system of the cell.

As Bruce Alberts said in 1998, the biology of the future was going to be the study of molecular machines: “the entire cell can be viewed as a factory that contains an elaborate network of interlocking assembly lines, each of which is composed of a set of large protein machines.”  One of those machines is like a mini-factory in itself. It’s called fatty acid synthase.

The first step of fatty acid biosynthesis requires the participation of  malonyl-CoA, a three-carbon intermediate.  The formation of malonyl-CoA from acetyl-CoA is an irreversible process, catalyzed by acetyl-CoA carboxylase enzymes. a multifunctional protein with 3 subunits, which is carefully regulated.

In the second step, fatty acid synthase ( FAS) proteins come into action. These are the little heroes of this article. FAS most striking feature is the “high degree of architectural complexity” – some 48 active sites, complete with moving parts

Which organism has one of the most elaborate fatty-acid machines of all?  The surprising answer: fungi. 
Perhaps the most striking feature of fungal FAS is its high degree of architectural complexity, in which 48 functional centers exist in a single ... particle.  Detailed structural information is essential for delineating how this complex particle coordinates the reactions involved in many steps of synthesis of fatty acids.... The six alpha subunits form a central wheel in the assembly, and the beta subunits form domes on the top and bottom of the wheel, creating six reaction chambers within which each Acyl Carrier Protein (ACP) can reach the six active sites through surprisingly modest movements.

The crystal structure of yeast FAS reveals that this large, macromolecular assembly functions as a six-chambered reactor for fatty acid synthesis.  Each of the six chambers functions independently and has in its chamber wall all of the catalytic units required for fatty acid priming, elongation, and termination, while one substrate-shuttling component, ACP, is located inside each chamber and functions like a swinging arm.  Surprisingly, however, the step at which the reactor is activated must occur before the complete assembly of the particle since the PPT domain that attaches the pantetheine arm to ACP lies outside the assembly,inaccessible to ACP that lies inside.  Remarkably, the architectural complexity of the FAS particle results in the simplicity of the reaction mechanisms for fatty acid synthesis in fungi.

To imagine this level of precision and master-controlled processing on a level this small, cannot help but induce a profound sense of wonder and awe.  Here, all this time, this machine has been helping to keep living things functioning and we didn’t even know the details till now.

The fatty acids are useless without the amino acids, and vice versa .  Even if some kind of metabolic cycle were to be envisioned under semi-realistic conditions, how did this elaborate machine, composed of amino acids with precise charge distributions, arise?  It’s not just the machine, it’s the blueprints and construction process that must be explained.  What blind process led to the precise placement of active sites that process their inputs in a programmed sequence?  What put them into a structure with shared walls where six reaction chambers can work independently?  All this complexity, involving thousands of precision amino acids in FAS  has to be coded in DNA, then built by the formidably complex translation process, then assembled together in the right order, or FAS won’t work.  But the storage, retrieval, translation and construction systems all need the fatty acids, too, or they won’t work.

We are witnessing an interdependent system of mind-boggling complexity that defies any explanation besides intelligent design.  Yes, Bruce Alberts, “as it turns out, we can walk and we can talk because the chemistry that makes life possible is much more elaborate and sophisticated than anything we students had ever considered.”  We have tended to “vastly underestimate the sophistication of many of these remarkable devices.”

The closer they look, the more wondrous the cell gets.  Who would have thought that the requirement to make these fatty acids would require machinery with moving parts and reaction chambers?  Who would have imagined their surfaces would be covered with complex proteins that regulate the production inside?  Who would have realized that fat was so important, the cell had complex assembly plants to build it?  Fat is almost a mild cussword in our vocabulary, but it is another class of molecular building blocks we couldn’t live without.  Fats, sugars, proteins and nucleic acids all work together in life, from humans to lowly fungi.  Each class of molecules has immense variety, each is essential, and each is manufactured to spec by precision machinery.  What a wonderful post-Darwinian world.

How do origin of life researchers envision the arise of these hyper complex nano factories and assembly lines to make fatty acids ? The scientific paper The lipid world says :

Self-assembly of amphiphilic molecules into complex supramolecular structures is spontaneous. The plausibility that such structures were present in the prebiotic environment is supported by the occurrence of amphiphilic molecules in carbonaceous meteorites and the demonstration that they can assemble into membrane vesicles. 

This paper shows the helplessness of proponents of  natural prebiotic origin of lipids. Its a hudge gap between above explanation, and the arise of hypercomplex multyenzymatic proteins, which produce fatty acids through advanced, regulated, precise, coordinated multistep factory assembly-line like robotic  procedures. 

I conclude that the make of  essential fatty acids, ingredients of cell membranes, requires interdependent irreducible complex procedures,  several different metabolic pathways in order to make the substrates and produce the energy used in the process, several enzymes, the whole machinery to make the assembly proteins and enzymes. Since this constitutes a complex interlocked process, it could not be due to step by step evolutionary manner. Fatty acids, constituents of the cell membranes, had to exist right from the start for life to arise. This fact makes the design inference the most rational one.

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t2168-the-amazing-fatty-acid-synthase-nano-factories-and-origin-of-life-scenarios

Following parts are involved direct or indirectly in fatty acid synthesis, and must exist in order for fatty acids to be able to be synthesized :

the cytosol
NADPH.

enzymes of the Pentose phosphate pathway enzymes :

Glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase
6-phosphogluconolactonase
Phosphogluconate dehydrogenase
Ribose-5-phosphate isomerase
Phosphopentose epimerase
Transketolase
Transaldolase

of the glycolysis pathway, at least : hexokinase enzymes

oxaloacetate
phophopantetheinyl transferases
citrate
mitochondria
The citrate carrier (CiC)
the nucleus
malate dehydrogenase enzymes or pyruvate carboxylase enzymes
acetyl-CoA carboxylase enzymes
Acyl Carrier Proteins
FAS fatty acid synthase proteins
The citric acid cycle
ATP

 

[DutchLiam84]

Re: Proteintransport into Mitochondria is irreducible comple

I guess it was fun while it lasted....sort of.

 

[SpecialFrog]

Re: Proteintransport into Mitochondria is irreducible comple

Elshamah, you keep making the same argument and ignoring the fact that people have pointed out that it has fundamental problems. Try addressing the problems rather than just making the same flawed argument again with a different cellular feature.

 

[Dragan Glas]

Re: Proteintransport into Mitochondria is irreducible comple

Greetings,

Post #7 is particularly apt:

RE: The amazing fatty acid synthase nano factories, and origin of life scenarios

(Today 09:34 AM)Aliza Wrote:
I assume you realize that I'm not going to read a word of that....

What pisses me off about GE [aka Elshamah - DG] is that I used to sort through all that crap and actually address it, and then instead of acknowledging there's an error in his approach to ID/IC, he just comes right back with more "examples".

It's a lot of work to address, for no gain (since the answers will be ignored by the fundie), and therefore fundamentally (pun intended) dishonest.

Kindest regards,

James