The Design of the Simplest Self-Replicator

[red]

here goes a improved version of my post above.

Cell Membranes, origins through natural mechanisms, or design ?  

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t2128-membrane-structure#3798

According to this website : The ....

Evolution is called that because something changed over time.
Your referenced source provides an explanation of cell structures, but not of the evolutionary sequences. In fact your referenced source has borrowed material from from Molecular Biology of the Cell, by Bruce Alberts et al. You perhaps should have read that book in preference to a biased forum.
Moreover, verbatim quotes from Cornelius Hunter don't particularly help your cause.
You might find this useful http://www.biologydirect.com/content/5/1/7 .

 

[keeper541]

here goes a improved version of my post above.

Well if this is the improved version, the original must be really bad, because this is just plain craptastic.

The interdependency of lipid membranes and membrane proteins suggests that lipid bilayers and membrane proteins co-evolved together with membrane bioenergetics.
The nonsense of this assertion is evident. How could the membrane proteins co-evolve, if they had to be manufactured in the machinery , protected by the cell membrane ?

The nonsense of this assertion is evident. How could the membrane proteins co-evolve, if they had to be manufactured in the machinery , protected by the cell membrane ?

The cell membrane contains various types of proteins, including ion channel proteins, proton pumps, G proteins, and enzymes. These membrane proteins function cooperatively to allow ions to penetrate the lipid bilayer.

The ER and Golgi apparatus together constitute the endomembrane compartment in the cytoplasm of eukaryotic cells.

And there lies the fault of your whole argument. Heck you even referenced the fact that only one type of life has these structures, eukaryotic cells. If you have to define what type of cells have these structures than logic dictates that there is a type of cell without these structures. If life can exist without these structures than they aren't needed for life to function. Your whole argument fails right out of the starting block.

As for your claim that membrane proteins are only produced in cell machinery. Well that's an argumentum ad ignorantiam, you can't say that the only way to produce membrane bound proteins has always been through Transcription. You've never actually shown that a protein produced from basic chemistry cannot bind into a lipid bi-layer. Unless you can show that the only way for a macromolecule to be produced with hydrophobic and hydrophilic regions is within the cell than your argument is irrelevant.

So in order to make cell membranes, the Endoplasmic Recticulum is required. But also the Golgi Apparatus, the peroxysome, and the mitochondria.

Wrong. Since prokaryotic cells exist and don't have these structures they are not required. Your whole argument is just bollocks.

Edited the quoted portion to show more of the quote in it's entirety.

 

[Elshamah]

Evolution is called that because something changed over time.
Your referenced source provides an explanation of cell structures, but not of the evolutionary sequences. In fact your referenced source has borrowed material from from Molecular Biology of the Cell, by Bruce Alberts et al. You perhaps should have read that book in preference to a biased forum.
Moreover, verbatim quotes from Cornelius Hunter don't particularly help your cause.
You might find this useful http://www.biologydirect.com/content/5/1/7 .

The references source is my personal virtual library. I have not provided any evolutionary sequence, BECAUSE THERE ISN'T ANY. It can't. that is the whole point of my post.

Your website starts with :

The transition from prokaryotes to eukaryotes was the most radical change in cell organisation since life began,

That is begging the question...... but, really ??

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t1568-eukaryotes-evolved-from-prokaryotes-really?highlight=prokaryotes+to+eukaryotes

― Alan H. Linton

“Throughout 150 years of the science of bacteriology, there is no evidence that one species of bacteria has changed into another... Since there is no evidence for species changes between the simplest forms of unicellular life, it is not surprising that there is no evidence for evolution from prokaryotic [i.e., bacterial] to eukaryotic [i.e., plant and animal] cells, let alone throughout the whole array of higher multicellular organisms.”

and:

The ingredients needed to make a eukaryote were not found in prokaryotes and no evolutionary pathway was evident

thats the same as to try to evolve a bicicle into a motocicle.

Darwins Black Box page 40:

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t2115-the-best-of-darwins-black-box#3760

So let us attempt to evolve a bicycle into a motorcycle by the gradual accumulation of mutations. Suppose that a factory produced bicycles, but that occasionally there was a mistake in manufacture. Let us further suppose that if the mistake led to an improvement in the bicycle, then the friends and neighbors of the lucky buyer would demand similar bikes, and the factory would retool to make the mutation a permanent feature. So, like biological mutations, successful mechanical mutations would reproduce and spread. If we are to keep our analogy relevant to biology, however, each change can only be a slight modification, duplication, or rearrangement of a preexisting component, and the change must improve the function of the bicycle. So if the factory mistakenly increased the size of a nut or decreased the diameter of a bolt, or added an extra wheel onto the front axle or left off the rear tire, or put a pedal on the handlebars or added extra spokes, and if any of these slight changes improved the bike ride, then the improvement would immediately be noticed by the buying public and the mutated bikes would, in true Darwinian fashion, dominate the market. Given these conditions, can we evolve a bicycle into a motorcycle? We can move in the right direction by making the seat more comfortable in small steps, the wheels bigger, and even (assuming our customers prefer the «biker» look) imitating the overall shape in various ways. But a motorcycle depends on a source of fuel, and a bicycle has nothing that can be slightly modified to become a gasoline tank. And what part of the bicycle could be duplicated to begin building a motor? Even if a lucky accident brought a lawnmower engine from a neighboring factory into the bicycle factory, the motor would have to be mounted on the bike and be connected in the right way to the drive chain. How could this be done step-by-step from bicycle parts? A factory that made bicycles simply could not produce a motorcycle by natural selection acting on variation—by «numerous, successive, slight modifications»—and in fact there is no example in history of a complex change in a product occurring in this manner.

further they go on with their pseudo scientific assertions :

and coevolving mitotic apparatus

not only is that a prime example of pseudo scientific nonsense. But the claim is beyond of fantastic. Its fantasy at its best.

Cell division is a PRIME EXAMPLE OF IRREDUCIBLE COMPLEXITY. Take away a tiny protein like cohesin, condensin, or Topokinase II enzymes, and nothing goes. Beside this, cell division is a extremely precise, regulated process. No regulation, no cell division.


http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t2109-the-cell-cycle

The duplication of eukaryotic cells is a all fine-tuned biochemical processes that depend on the precise structural arrangement of the cellular components.

then:

The cell-cycle control system is based on a connected series of biochemical switches, each of which initiates a specific cell-cycle event. This system of switches possesses many important features that increase the accuracy and reliability of cell-cycle progression. First, the switches are generally binary (on/off) and launch events in a complete, irreversible fashion. It would clearly be disastrous, for example, if events like chromosome condensation or nuclear-envelope breakdown were only partially initiated or started but not completed. Second, the cell-cycle control system is remarkably robust and reliable, partly because backup mechanisms and other features allow the system to operate effectively under a variety of conditions and even if some components fail. Finally, the control system is highly adaptable and can be modified to suit specific cell types or to respond to specific intracellular or extracellular signals.

How could such a control system arise in a stepwise manner ? unless it was doing its job right from the beginning in a precise, coordenated and programmed manner, cell division would not be possible in a successfull manner.

The spindle is the most complex machine known in nature. What good woult it be for it to arise without cell division be fully in place and possible ?

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t2090-centriole-centrosome-the-centriole-spindle-the-most-complex-machine-known-in-nature

The idea that free-living centrosome-like organisms were once engulfed by other primitive organisms is about as implausible as you can get, and the implausibility is not lessened by the presence in centrosomes of RNAs "that are highly conserved across distant taxa."

In this case, evolutionary jargon has taken the place of clear thinking.

furthermore:

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t2107-subunit-organization-in-the-dam1-kinetochore-complex-and-its-ring-around-microtubules

Mitosis is the process by which a dividing cell duplicates its chromosomes and distributes them equally between its two daughter cells ( how could natural mechanisms have come up with that feat ? trial and error ? ) — a process in which mistakes can lead to cancer and birth defects. ( that means, the process had to be functional and fully operational right from the beginning, otherwise, cell division would be impossible )

When microtubule spindles encounter Dam1 kinetochore complexes, the complexes self-assemble into a ring around the microtubules.
"This tubulin tail is very acidic and it makes a cloud of negative charges around the microtubules, which the Dam1 ring grabs hold of," says Nogales. "This electrostatic means of holding onto the microtubules is not so sticky or tight, but instead allows for lateral sliding of the Dam1 rings along the microtubules."

So thats a finely tuned mechanism through electrostatic forces. Amazing !

Nogales and her colleagues also identified a region in Dam1 essential for the regulation of the complex, by spindle-checkpoint kinase enzymes. "These kinases are signaling proteins that, based on tension in the spindles, tell the ring when the time is right for it to let go of the microtubules," Nogales says. "We have found that without this region, the ability of the Dam1 to form a ring is reduced." So that is a pre-programmed very important communication process, which also had to be fully functional right from the start, otherwise, as the researchers stated, " the ability of the Dam1 to form a ring is reduced. As i remarked here Most signal-relay stations we know about were intelligently designed. Signal without recognition is meaningless. Communication implies a signalling convention (a “coming together” or agreement in advance) that a given signal means or represents something: e.g., that S-O-S means “Send Help!” or, in this case, that Dam1 proteins mean “tell the ring when the time is right for it to let go of the microtubules” The transmitter and receiver can be made of non-sentient materials, but the functional purpose of the system always comes from a mind. The mind uses the material substances to perform an algorithm that is not itself a product of the materials or the blind forces acting on them.

 

[Deleted member 619]

The 9th commandment means absolutely fuck all to you, does it?

 

[Elshamah]

The 9th commandment means absolutely fuck all to you, does it?

 

[Rumraket]

The Interdependency of Lipid Membranes and Membrane Proteins The cell membrane contains various types of proteins, including ion channel proteins, proton pumps, G proteins, and enzymes. These membrane proteins function cooperatively to allow ions to penetrate the lipid bilayer. The interdependency of lipid membranes and membrane proteins suggests that lipid bilayers and membrane proteins co-evolved together with membrane bioenergetics.

The nonsense of this assertion is evident. How could the membrane proteins co-evolve, if they had to be manufactured in the machinery , protected by the cell membrane ?

Uhm, the question is actually answered in the paper from which you bring this quote you unfathomable liar.

That's the whole fucking point of the paper, to explain how cell membranes originated when they are critical for cells.

Quick hint: life didn't start out with organic lipid membranes. The suggestion of the paper is that it started out in inorganic compartments with the membrane being a semipermeable mineral matrix.

In fact it's right there in the fucking abstract you lying religious nutcase:
The origin of membrane bioenergetics.
Lane N, Martin WF.

Abstract
Harnessing energy as ion gradients across membranes is as universal as the genetic code. We leverage new insights into anaerobe metabolism to propose geochemical origins that account for the ubiquity of chemiosmotic coupling, and Na(+)/H(+) transporters in particular. Natural proton gradients acting across thin FeS walls within alkaline hydrothermal vents could drive carbon assimilation, leading to the emergence of protocells within vent pores. Protocell membranes that were initially leaky would eventually become less permeable, forcing cells dependent on natural H(+) gradients to pump Na(+) ions. Our hypothesis accounts for the Na(+)/H(+) promiscuity of bioenergetic proteins, as well as the deep divergence between bacteria and archaea.

 

[Elshamah]

.................. with the membrane being a semipermeable mineral matrix.]

LOL... yes. that semipermeable is the pseudo scientific part.

Do you have actually a clue about the proteins required for a cell to function ? No, evidently you don't.

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t2128-membrane-structure

It takes many kinds of membrane proteins to enable a cell to function and interact with its environment, and it is estimated that about 30% of the proteins encoded in an animal’s genome are membrane proteins.

Its because of know-nothings like you that pseudo scientific sharlatans like Nick Lane find fertile ground, and are able to sell their fairy tale stories.

 

[SpecialFrog]

Its because of know-nothings like you that pseudo scientific sharlatans like Nick Lane find fertile ground, and are able to sell their fairy tale stories.

So you claim it was magic but Nick Lane is selling fairy tales?

 

[Rumraket]

.................. with the membrane being a semipermeable mineral matrix.]

LOL... yes. that semipermeable is the pseudo scientific part.

Mineral matrix semipermeability is an observed fact, both in hydrothermal settings and in fuel cells. They work exactly as advertised. They have expermentally verified that they work.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ange.201501663/abstract
From Chemical Gardens to Fuel Cells: Generation of Electrical Potential and Current Across Self-Assembling Iron Mineral Membranes
Dr. Laura M. Barge1,2,*, Yeghegis Abedian1,2, Dr. Michael J. Russell1,2, Ivria J. Doloboff1,2, Dr. Julyan H. E. Cartwright3, Dr. Richard D. Kidd1,2 andDr. Isik Kanik1,2

Abstract
We examine the electrochemical gradients that form across chemical garden membranes and investigate how self-assembling, out-of-equilibrium inorganic precipitates—mimicking in some ways those generated in far-from-equilibrium natural systems—can generate electrochemical energy. Measurements of electrical potential and current were made across membranes precipitated both by injection and solution interface methods in iron-sulfide and iron-hydroxide reaction systems. The battery-like nature of chemical gardens was demonstrated by linking multiple experiments in series which produced sufficient electrical energy to light an external light-emitting diode (LED). This work paves the way for determining relevant properties of geological precipitates that may have played a role in hydrothermal redox chemistry at the origin of life, and materials applications that utilize the electrochemical properties of self-organizing chemical systems.

You keep using that word "pseudo scientifc", I do not think it means what you think.

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

Elshamah, your argument boils down to a rehashed "chicken-or-egg" false dichotomy applied at the level of the cell.

Kindest regards,

James

 

[Elshamah]

Mineral matrix semipermeability is an observed fact.

So what ?? What does that have to do AT ALL with cell membranes ??




Elshamah, your argument boils down to a rehashed "chicken-or-egg" false dichotomy applied at the level of the cell.

why is it a false dichotomy ?

 

[Rumraket]

Mineral matrix semipermeability is an observed fact.

So what ?? What does that have to do AT ALL with cell membranes ??

They function as cell membranes you dimwit.

Read the papers, shit-for-brains.

 

[Elshamah]

They function as cell membranes you dimwit.

So namecalling replaces now a rational discourse ?? LOL....


http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/06/cell_membrane_l087171.html

If you've been told that lipids (fatty acids) in cells self-organize into membranes, you've heard a half-truth. Yes, lipids will spontaneously form layers and bilayers due to their hydrophobic chains and hydrophilic heads, but membranes need to do much more than wall in the cell or its organelles. They also have to control which proteins and other molecules are allowed to pass in or out. Some organelles need looser or tighter membranes. And all need to respond to signals with special sensors.

Here are a few highlights from this paper. The high level of design is obvious:

Variety. There are many different kinds of lipids. "The organelles along the secretory pathway have major differences in lipid composition that help to shape their specialized tasks," the authors say. For instance, phospholipids (the most abundant) form narrower membranes than sphingolipids. Due to the properties of specific lipids, some membranes will curve into a cone, some will curve into a cylinder, and others into an inverted cone shape. Specific lipids influence the fluidity, thickness and packing density of the membranes they comprise.

Electrostatics. Some membranes carry a charge, due to the composition of the lipid molecules in the "head" of the molecules. The charge is functional: for instance, "The endoplasmic reticulum (ER) has a thin bilayer, loose lipid packing and neutral cytoplasmic surface charge adapted for its biogenic function," while "The plasma membrane (PM) has a thick bilayer, tight lipid packing and negative cytoplasmic surface charge adapted for its barrier function." The charged lipids are spaced within the membrane to provide just the right amount of charge; this charge density is tightly controlled.

Physical properties. Membranes can be stiffened or loosened in several ways. One is by using saturated or unsaturated fats. Saturated lipids bind more tightly together, forming stiffer and less permeable membranes. Sterols inserted between the lipids can also affect the thickness and packing density of the membrane; "Thickness is promoted by acyl-chain length and sterols, which order and stretch the acyl chains." The properties are carefully regulated, because defects can be disastrous. For instance, "an imbalance between saturated and unsaturated phospholipids readily affects ER biogenic activity, inducing a stress response that can trigger cell death."
Manufacture. The production of lipids and sterols is complex! The authors show a flowchart of chemical pathways for the manufacture of cellular lipids. It reveals a multitude of proteins, enzymes, and cofactors that take part in regulated, rate-limited production lines. Some of the steps occur in the cytosol, many in the ER, some in the mitochondria. Final packaging and delivery of sphingolipids takes place in the Golgi body. "Thus, the Golgi defines a demarcation line between two broad membrane territories with distinct physical and functional features."

Sensing. Even in "simple" bacteria, membranes are studded with sensors that can produce downstream effects. For instance, "Thermosensor DesK is a histidine kinase acting at the top of a regulatory cascade controlling the synthesis of unsaturated fatty acids in Bacillus subtilis." A drop in temperature triggers a cascade of effects that includes feedback to the genes, regulating lipid manufacture. There are stress sensors, packing defect sensors, sterol excess sensors, curvature sensors, and more.
Pipelines. Newly manufactured lipids from the ER need to be delivered to where they're needed. "Newly synthesized lipids are exported from the ER as components of secretory vesicles, or through pipelines operated by cytoplasmic lipid transfer proteins (LTPs)," the authors say. "The latter mechanism is crucial for supplying ER lipids to mitochondria and other organelles that are not connected by vesicular trafficking but rely on lipid import for proper function." It's notable that delivery continues unabated when vesicular traffic is shut off. This led the authors to focus on the lipid pipelines, which they determined are the "key to lipid homeostasis" (dynamic equilibrium). Their cartoon drawing shows a dizzying array of donor and acceptor machines that take part in the complex delivery system.

Cross-communication. Membranes talk to each other. The ER membrane is in touch with the plasma membrane through a series of machines and chemical pathways, so that the manufacturing plant knows what the remote site needs for repairs and growth. After discussing some details, the authors say, "Thus, a number of pipelines intersect to ensure that sphingolipid precursors reach the trans-Golgi in synchrony with sterol arrival, allowing a fundamental transition in the lipid landscape that divides the secretory pathway in early and late membrane territories."

Health and balance. In their final subsection, the authors discuss what happens when things go wrong. "Numerous links between lipid imbalances and human pathologies underscore the importance of membrane lipid homeostasis," they begin, then they "focus on two examples that highlight the physical principles of lipid organization in early and late membrane territories in the context of liver disease." The results of failure can be severe. Obesity, diabetes, cholestasis are just a few consequences when the normally balanced system has a breakdown.

The first cell could not just "wall in" its lucky molecules. Cells need to take in nutrients and excrete waste. A beginning cell membrane could not, furthermore, just "leak" to pass material in and out by osmosis. A cell needs active transport to work against concentration gradients. Without the sensors, pathways, and gateways provided with the lipid membranes, to say nothing of a genetic information system controlling them, a simple membrane would be a death trap.

That is btw a prediction of intelligent design. The more scientific research advances and discovers, it will encounter more and more complexity in biological systems.

Remember Cali's says ? Learn that lesson fast, :lol: ...... LOL....

 

[Rumraket]

They function as cell membranes you dimwit.

So namecalling replaces now a rational discourse ?? LOL....


http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/06/cell_membrane_l087171.html

If you've been told that lipids (fatty acids) in cells self-organize into membranes... bla bla bla irrelevant shit

Hey, shit-for-brains, I was talking about the mineral membranes, not lipids. It helps if you read.

Minerals are made of metals for fucks sake (In this case the suggestion is Iron-sulfur, FeS, but it can be other things like NiS, Calcium carbonates and so on), they are not made of lipids or fatty acids. They are not even organic molecules, they are inorganic membrances, a rigid solid structure that has limited permeability to small molecules. It is basically a porous rock structure that also acts as catalyst for chemical reactions.

This gives them the same functionality as the modern cell membrane does, they are just not able to move around since they sit embedded in a larger mineral precipitate.

 

[SpecialFrog]

So namecalling replaces now a rational discourse ?? LOL....

Which is clearly something you would never engage in.

Its because of know-nothings like you that pseudo scientific sharlatans like Nick Lane find fertile ground, and are able to sell their fairy tale stories.

So in addition to plagiarism you seem to be fond of hypocrisy.

 

[Rumraket]

So namecalling replaces now a rational discourse ?? LOL....

Which is clearly something you would never engage in.

The funny thing is I have actually answered all this arguments. At no point have any namecalling replaced argumentation.

Additionally, there is no rational discussion between Elsamah and anything, because that would entail both parties employ reason. Every argument Elsamah has erected so far has suffered under some basic fallacy in deductive logic.

Primary among them are blind assertions and non-sequiturs. Every single post of his that isn't just commentary ("haha that is fairy tale pseudoscience" etc. etc.) is suffering under multiple of these.

 

[red]

Elshamah wrote:

The references source is my personal virtual library. I have not provided any evolutionary sequence, BECAUSE THERE ISN'T ANY. It can't. that is the whole point of my post.

Please explain your existence given you claim there is no evolutionary sequence.

 

[MarsCydonia]

"Well, god is so complex, ..

I thought i had addressed this already.

God is not complex

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t1332-god-is-not-complex

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/richard-dawkins-argument-for-atheism-in-the-god-delusion

God is a remarkably simple entity. As a non-physical entity, a mind is not composed of parts, and its salient properties, like self-consciousness, rationality, and volition, are essential to it. In contrast to the contingent and variegated universe with all its inexplicable quantities and constants, a divine mind is startlingly simple. Certainly such a mind may have complex ideas—it may be thinking, for example, of the infinitesimal calculus—, but the mind itself is a remarkably simple entity

Sorry, I had not read the whole of your link because it started with the usual "god was not created because he exists in 0 space and 0 time because god" and I expected the rest to be as fallacious.

So I read the "god is simple" part and I was right, the rest is fallacious as well.

Another "because... god".

I thought I adressed this already.

 

[Elshamah]

This gives them the same functionality as the modern cell membrane does.

If that were the case, there would be no reason for complex membrane proteins to emerge.

Again, your creduility towards fairy tales without a shred of evidence provided to you is truly amazing. What the wish of no God to exist can do to the brain and sight is remarkable, LOL.... :lol:

 

[Elshamah]

Please explain your existence given you claim there is no evolutionary sequence.

Read Genesis one