The Christian Bible as evidence, and does it matter?

[Andiferous]

Evidence for the Christian God seems a bit tangental to me, so I thought I'd take the base discussions somewhere else.

Taking from there:

(1) Is the Christian bible a reliable source to prove god's existence?

(2) Is Biblical factuality pivotal to Christian belief? How and why does it matter?

Interesting discussion worthy of its own topic, and I'd rather read them separately. I don't normally post here... But, disorder gives me chills.

 

[scorpion9]

1) An intelligent being shouldn,´t even ask this question anymore. Its by definition unreliable. A collection of stories based on no evidence + massive bias + editions throughout the history by cult leaders to gain even more power + translation errors + flat out insanity != valid evidence.


2) For some it seems to be, but the more you think about it, the more you see that its not the case. Think about it. Most cultists read their cult manuscript less than an average atheist. But they think its written by god, the most powerful and intelligent being.

Think about it. If you knew that there is a book/data in your possession written by another alien civilization, wouldn' t you pretty much read it fully through like few times a year if not more, to find all kinds of super knowledge. Cultists believe that the author is THE AUTHOR, but they don,´t even bother to read the book. Its absolutely insane, absurd to the higest degree.

Again, if you truly believe that you have a book written by the creator of the universe, you would be reading it every day, being amazed how superior, intelligently and well written, useful this book is. You would hope to find new scientific knowledge from it as well etc etc.
But no. Cultists usually read only fractions of it, rated "for children" by cult leaders.

 

[Andiferous]

I agree that parts are used by people to their best advantage, and I think maybe this is just the way of people. But to be honest, there are a bunch of historical writings that people profoundly respect, and many of which historians continue to doubt.

In regard to factual historical accounts within the bible: there are contradictory accounts that tend to nullify this idea. There were also historically recorded religious councils that actively edited the material by deciding what was and was not 'inspired by god,' and lastly, most of the accounts within the Christian bible were not actually first-hand recordings, and the earliest New Testiment gospel was recorded 50 years following the death of Jesus. Only one gospel writer claims to have laid eyes on Jesus himself, and some of the gospels are rote word-for-word. Unless I've got my gospel confused.

I suspect that the bible was both written and severely edited by men who likely had culture and politics acting on their choices. The rest seems incidental, as no one can prove these future writers to be divinely touched in any way, nor the council that chose them proved possessed by jesus, nevermind if Jesus was god, or not. Absolute faith in this text would require faith in every interpreter, and in addition, faith in 50 or so men who have personally helped write and edit the text. To presume they were all possessed by the holy spirit at the time of writing is more of a stretch than accepting that Jesus was the son of god. Besides, the cultural bias is evident...

I think moderates would point out that the bible and its messages must be filtered through an historical and cultural lens, and interpretation must take these things into account. The bible becomes a bit of a give-and-take metaphor or moral code and maybe a bit of a mythology. This sort of interpretation makes the point of historical accuracy moot, and allows the bible to serve Christianity through mores and teachings, instead of truths and facts. Not really unusual for religious and spiritual texts, and proves against universal Christian literal bible interpretation.

So I would say that no, Christianity need not be contingent on the bible and its' historical accuracy, but that the bible may be used by some as a moral code and guide. It's this flexibility that allows Christianity to adapt to cultural changes in the western world.

I don't think the argument of biblical fact is sufficient against most moderates.

Man, that sounded wordy.

Good luck.

 

[Koko]

1) To date, no one has ever been able to produce any evidence that a God exists. (that includes the bible). It is far more likely that God exists than the Christian concept of God is real, since Christianity is a subset of theism. Just as it is far more likely there will be an earthquake in North America next year than there will be an earthquake in California next year. (California is a subset of North America).

2) You would have to ask each individual Christian and get different answers. Kent Hovind in one of his videos claims to have been ready to abandon his faith after reading the verse implying pi=3, until he reread the verse in such a way to remove the error. Even if there is no error, one of the Indiana Jones films features a Nazi parade burning books. Just because this scene is consistent with reality, (such book burning parades actually happened) it doesn't mean everything else in the Indiana Jones series is real.

One thing that frustrates me about Christians is that they cherry pick stuff out of the bible that makes sense and ignore everything else that doesn't. They take to heart things like "love your enemy" and ignore the communism parts (sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor). They then claim that these ideas are amazing inspired morality that no human could possibly come up with. God didn't write that book, men did!

One of the most frustrating conversations I had was with a good friend of mine about a book he's been reading. "It's the best self help book I've ever read" ...pause... ...suddenly comes to his senses... "APART FROM THE BIBLE!!!!!"

 

[Laurens]

(1) Is the Christian bible a reliable source to prove god's existence?

Not at all. For the same reason that me writing UNICORNS EXIST on a bit of paper doesn't prove anything.

(2) Is Biblical factuality pivotal to Christian belief? How and why does it matter?

Interesting discussion worthy of its own topic, and I'd rather read them separately. I don't normally post here... But, disorder gives me chills.

I'd say it is pivotal to Christian belief.

When compared with a religion like Buddhism, the claims made about Buddha's life could be false, heck it doesn't even matter if the Buddha didn't exist - you would still be able to practice Buddhism because it's not overly focused on the historical events of the Buddha's life.

Would the theological claims of Christianity stand up if none of the events in Jesus' life happened or if he never existed? Of course not, Christianity is a religion that is fundamentally based in historical claims.

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

1) Do the chiselings on prehistoric chiseled stone evidence of the Norse gods? Are the records of Zeus, Athena, Artemis, Hades, Hercules as recorded by Homer make them any more valid? What of the prehistoric glyphs in Egypt that coat the walls of the temples and tombs - are they evidence of Ra and their pantheon? How about the workings of the Celtic Druids recorded by the Romans - are they evidence?
What of the exploits of Harry Potter?

2) Yes, it is pivotal to their beliefs. The only difference between us religious people and the rambling old lady shouting at cars on the corner is that we have a historical-backing record of some sorts for our ideals. The truth is, without that record then what is there to pin hopes on?
Christianity would not exist without the Bible (it barely exists in congruency WITH the Bible).
Every religion is centered about their core doctrine - with few exceptions.

 

[Andiferous]

You would have to ask each individual Christian and get different answers.

This may just explain part of the Christian bible's success.

One thing that frustrates me about Christians is that they cherry pick stuff out of the bible that makes sense and ignore everything else that doesn't. They take to heart things like "love your enemy" and ignore the communism parts (sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor). They then claim that these ideas are amazing inspired morality that no human could possibly come up with. God didn't write that book, men did!

Yes exactly. I see this as a rebellious means of free-thinking when pressed to conform. It's definitely what inspired my imaginations.

Is this bad? Well, maybe just inevitable. I used to think it was irrititating before I decided to be satisfied for evidence of free interpretation/thought demonstrated in the process.

I'm sure this situation leads to even further social and political issues, all of which tend to be tied into religion. But I tend to think it's the individuals who determine these, and the bible does nothing more than give them confidence. Humanity is to blame, imo. To know for certain, would require a lot more information.

The truth is, without that record then what is there to pin hopes on?

Seriously, you tell me.

What is there on which the world needs to pin hopes.

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

The truth is, without that record then what is there to pin hopes on?

Seriously, you tell me.

What is there on which the world needs to pin hopes.

I'm not the atheist.
:lol:

But I do pin my hopes on what is natural - even if I do see it as a natural world with a twist, I still think it as simply the natural world. I pin my life on the fact that I'm still alive, that I have friends and family, and that when I'm dead eventually I will go forth and be apart of stars for centuries onward and my spirit will go on and contenue to cycle through with other life on other planets and places.

And so on.

 

[Andiferous]

As an atheist, that's a better explanation than most.

Not that I don't want to believe or am adverse to trying to understand one answer or another.

But you see my point, otherwise?

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

As an atheist, that's a better explanation than most.

Not that I don't want to believe or am adverse to trying to understand one answer or another.

But you see my point, otherwise?

Honestly, I think that most religious people are rational -

they hold this belief in something, but they think of it about as much as you wake up in the orning and say:
"Ah! It feels wonderful to wake up on a planet that's evolving, and revolving at 900 miles per hour, orbiting at 19 miles per second (so it's reckoned) a Sun that is the source of all our power. The sun, and me, and all the stars that we can see are moving at a million miles per day in the outer-spiral arm at 40,000 miles per hour in the galaxy we call the Milky Way - which, itself, contains 100 billion stars. It's also 100,000 lightyears side-to-side and bulges in the middle, 16,000 lightyears this (but out by us, it's just 3,000 lightyears wide). And, right now, we're 30,000 lightyears from galctic central point, and we go 'round every 200 million years!

Oh, and our Galaxy is only one of Millions and Billions in this amazing and expanding Universe!"

 

[Demojen]

I actually think of that quite often...It kinda gives me motion sickness.

 

[Laurens]

I think there would be a compelling case for something supernatural (though not necessarily) if the Bible contained scientific information that could not possibly have been known at the time. If it mentioned DNA in specific detail, for example, this would be very compelling and one would have to wonder where this information came from at a time when we did not have the capacity to know about such things. The problem is that the Bible contains no such information - ignoring all the pathetic attempts made by people trying to twist the meaning of cryptic passages to fit in with modern scientific theories.

As it stands the Bible provides no evidence for God, not even any philosophical arguments for Gods existence (as far as I'm aware) - it just assumes his existence.

 

[Thomas Doubting]

Does the bible count as evidence?

I really don't wish to insult religious people, but in my opinion a truly healthy brain can not -decide- to believe in the common versions of God, it has to be brainwashed to have "faith".
What I wrote is about the Bible but sure its the same principle for pretty much any religion. And yet they all have to show us a signature of their God, otherwise we have no reason to think it is not one of the other gods or Aladdin's Genie or some magical pebble in the depth of the sea, well of course, provided they prove us the existence of any God-like thing :geek:
-->If something like their versions is possible at all <--
-->Which versions do you take?<--
-->DO NOT IGNORE OT! but wtf about the laws?<--
-->all you need to know about the bible<--

How can i make critical decisions and base my way of life on teachings from a book so full of mistakes, lies, obsolete knowledge, pseudo morality and threats, contradicting incoherent stories and laws clearly excluding each other? Things written by drunken murdering pedophiles and slave drivers, or simply people from the bronze age who had no clue what they are talking about.
It simply forces me to cherry pick and interpret and use my imagination to defend the undefendable and explain the morbidly fictive. In meantime a smart 10 year old has that bit of bible's accurate and healthy teachings in the top of their finger, but we tell them to stop believing in Santa, so why not do the same with God?

a)Turn off rational thinking and protect it all with ignorance and imagination.

b)Simply and reasonably reject it.

I say B, what I did, just like with all the other books, that bit of correct knowledge isn't worth the whole package.. more the opposite.

Although they know nothing about us except that we don't believe in their God, many of them tell us we are "soulless" immoral people who deserve to be punished, but when we show them how ridiculous and wrong and inhumane their teachings are, they mostly say something sounding like: "Well its the old testament and it doesn't apply to us, besides we only stick to the things that we cherry picked and adjusted so much that we could live with it, if in doubt we say "GODDIDIT" and some ancient people wrote that we are too stupid to understand it anyway, but we like to think that we understand it better than you."

The new one isn't much better.. but Jesus definitely had nothing against those teachings, according to their own fairy tale, and OT applies to everybody no matter if they like to think it doesn't.

"For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:18-19

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." Luke 16:17

"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." 2 Timothy 3:16

Jesus couldn't have been more precise about that.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." Matthew 5:17

Even about idiotic needless murder.

"Whoever curses father or mother shall die" Mark 7:10

But he isn't even the Messiah!

"The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" Matthew 1:23

Yet not even his parents call Jesus Immanuel at any point in the bible.
The Messiah must be a physical descendant of David but Matthew 1 and Luke 3 show he descended from David through Joseph (through both of David's sons :mrgreen: ), who was not Jesus' natural father because of the Virgin Birth, although i don't understand why that is a "fact" beyond doubt, I mean many people claim to be virgins when they're far from being one
What makes her story so believable? Or anything else in the Bible.. after they decide which version to accept so we can try to analyze it :roll:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." (John 14:12-14 )

Sure you will

Anyway, even if we leave out the other mountains of crap, actually galaxies of crap, Jesus is fake, case closed.

Debatable, of course, like so many fruits of our imagination,but since they like to interpret and twist and stretch, one should remind them that they should rather stop doing that..

Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." 2 Peter 20-21

According to their own book, they are doomed already, they are forced to stick to tons of contradicting laws and teachings, which are ALL valid with every dot and comma, their fake savior came to tell them they should not be fooled to think that the O(ld) T(imes) are over, they are stuck with laws like "kill your son if he misbehaves, kill this, kill that, kill everybody, rape kids and force them into marriage" and "turn the other cheek, don't respond to violence, but kill them anyway" uhh :shock: just to name a few...
"But most of all, don't dare to forget.. NEVEREVER shall you wear clothes woven with 2 different materials!!!"

They create some individual version of belief and tuck themselves into their imaginary world where some omnipotent attention and love seeking brat is throwing tantrums and telling them what to do, without even telling them on his own, instead putting it in ancient books loaded with bullshit and pseudo morality. I guess the free will factor is to pick what you like from the teachings..
But everything will be fine as long as they join his fan club and turn off rational thinking when it comes to him..

On the other hand they do rule out all other religions because well, they are illogical and stupid fairy tales which make no sense :lol:

But then we have "creation scientists", the guys who tell the people that the scientists are out to stupify them, that the kids should be taught "creation science" in schools, they more than anyone close their eyes and ears to reason and reality.. take only as much science as they need to state some points which they THINK prove them right, and of course they don't fight it when it comes to things that are useful for them, but ridicule and demonize science whenever it could disprove them, instead they stick to some interpreted and made up bull and pseudo scientific facts.. like..

Job 26:7: "[God] ...hangeth the earth upon nothing." This is another example of twentieth-century science in the Bible. Even the existence of the hypothetical space substance called ether is rejected by most physicists and astronomers today. The force called gravity is invoked to account for the earth's affinity to the sun, but that doesn't explain anything, since no one knows what gravity is or why it works, How such a mysterious "action at a distance" could keep the earth attached to the sun, 93 million miles away, is quite unknown. There is no better explanation than that of Scripture: "He...hangeth the earth upon nothing."

Really? Science in the bible? No better explanation?
Of course.. if you close your eyes to everything else..

God hangeth the world upon nothing? How is that is a scientific ANYTHING?
A scientific theory would be "God created a solar system and put the Earth into a habitable zone to rotate around itself and around the Sun and move through the Universe..."
It is sure not hanging anywhere as far as i am concerned.

Basically they try to make us think, God created the Universe out of less than thin air but then he needed some dirt to create a man and the man's rib to create a woman? (if we pick that version of genesis) Then the omnipotent being needed a break because he was so tired? The Sun was placed there after the earth and all life? He created the Evil,® to keep us entertained?

And this is great too:

Joshua 10:12-13
"Sun, stand still over Gibeon,
and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon."
So the sun stood still...

Makes perfect sense, doesn't it? How can we be so stupid to think that the Earth would have to stand still and not the Sun.. -______-


In my eyes this is "bible science"




and this is how bible science should look like to be a bit more plausible



The fact that we don't know something, or a lot of things, is not the reason to take a giant leap into the unknowable (afterlife) and the imaginary (God)..
It is really sad that so many people, just because someone wrote some books and claimed that they are the only truthâ„¢ and miracles and they are the word of God.. think it is really true.. after such a long time they still take such things for granted, an attempt to explain the world to illiterate uneducated people, to mesmerize them into blind obedience.. a very lame and in meantime a ridiculous attempt to explain pretty much anything :facepalm:

I do have a feeling that the voice of reason is speaking louder every day.. if they don't listen, the following generations will listen.. more and more, they can't brainwash their children forever.. and spread intolerance hatred and violence.. but the more people stick to reality, the more others should be tempted to stick to it too.. well lets hope so :|

Oh wow, that was a massive wall of crap, sorry, but i think it says more than the whole Bible :mrgreen:

Ronnie can explain it better than me anyway..

 

[Thomas Doubting]

Bible as evidence and does it matter?
let's see..

I, am not blindly obedient. I am loyal to the teachings of the Lord our God because through him I can see anything and everything. While my body will fade away after death, my soul will live on eternally. Continue your fictitious ramblings about the integrity of God's early followers, but both of us know how deep in your bowels you need to dig to produce crap this vile. Thank god for diseases, genocide, and slavery. May you be among the lucky who are cleansed from the earth.

I don't think I am special, but God apparently does. Unlike delusional Darwinist, I do not believe that bombs cause dinosaurs to transform into chickens, or apes into man. God created man separate and above animals. That many individuals seek to undo, all of his creation and join the animals is an affront to God and shows your arrogance.

Show me where the big bang THEORY or THEORY of evolution are talked about in the Bible and we can have a debate. Otherwise, your, point is moot. Good day.

 

[Laurens]

Show me where the big bang THEORY or THEORY of evolution are talked about in the Bible and we can have a debate. Otherwise, your, point is moot. Good day.

Good grief. Some people are ignorant beyond words.

 

[Thomas Doubting]

Good grief. Some people are ignorant beyond words.

ah.. his picture of the world is much funnier than that, if you are fan of black humor..
would be entertaining if it wasn't shared by many people.. and by the ones who caused so much pain and suffering in the past and still work on it whenever they get a chance.. but however i turn it, ignorant is an understatement, i am even looking for a better word than delusional :shock:

You are an imbecilic homosexual who can barely compose a, simple sentence. There is a difference between humans and animals. Humans were granted divine intelligence by God. Animals eat eachother, screw their cubs, sling their feces and have sex with creatures of the same sex. If homosexuals want to act like animals, that's their problem.
The almighty God gave Satan incredible powers so that he could use them against man. Satan doesn't stand a, chance against God. He's God's instrument.

1. I'm not a native speaker. I have the same problems that you may have with another language.

2. Humans are animals. "A multicellular organism of the kingdom Animalia, differing from plants in, certain typical characteristics such as capacity for locomotion, nonphotosynthetic metabolism, pronounced response to stimuli, restricted growth, and fixed bodily structure." We evolved from other animals. And homosexuality is NORMAL. Religion is an aberration

1. The English language is the most spoken language in the world. I, don't need to speak other languages. The whole world speaks English. Thank God for that.
You can be an animal if you want. I won't stop you. You bear the mark, of the beast. Know that one day you will meet you creator and burn in eternal hellfire.
2. Evolutionists claim that humans are animals to justify their complete disregard for God's laws, which are directed at humans. By claiming they are animals, they can escape the guilt of robbing, raping, and murdering one another.

I say thank God that the entire world speaks English because it is the most beautiful language there is. It is by the grace of God that a heathen like you can speak English. I would never poison my tongue by learning, a foreign language. God strikes hunger, disease, poverty and natural disasters into the wicked, and I thank God for that.

But....jesus doesnt speak English

I would stake my life on the, conviction that he does because he speaks all languages. And the fact that this beloved language has spread across the globe is a testament to God's approval.

there is so much more brilliance from him but i'll just try to forget i ever saw it and let Jesus "say more than a thousand words" instead.