Teach the Art of War in school.

[Unwardil]

Here's my position.

The art of war, first of all is just a good read and while is explicitly about war has got an awful lot to say about why war is not a very good idea most of the time. Sun Tzu says that a lot, that wars are of grave importance to the state and it's not something you should dick around with and if you absolutely have to have a war, make it a quick one.

There's other applications to the things he talks about too, the idea of the direct and the indirect working together to achieve a goal for instance, how strength of numbers alone confers no advantage, etc etc, it's a short read with an awful lot of very interesting stuff in there, whether you're a war buff or not.

But the reason it should be taught in school in a compulsory history course, preferably, is because one day, theoretically, teenagers are going to grow up and vote and if you're an ignorant voter in war time and you don't have some basic understanding of what war is and how it is won, then you and your ill-informed opinions are a liability to your country if you vote against a necessary war, you're a liability to the army you vote to deploy in an ill advised and unnecessary war and you can be a continuing liability to yourself and to the army in the field when you vote to prolong a protracted conflict.

I can elaborate more on this later but... Thoughts?

 

[5810Singer]

A proper reading of Sun Tzu is essential, if you just get the header notes you'll miss some of the most sublte and fundamental parts of the Art of War. Also try to avoid the later Japanese versions, because some of them have been rewritten to include elements of Bushido, which dilutes their usefulness as strategic/tactical reference tools.

The only big thing that Unwardil has missed, is that Sun Tzu is very clear that he sets out ideal situations and solutions, but he is very clearly pragmatic.
One of Sun Tzu's rules is about maintaining the strategic advantage of the higher ground,...however another of his rules is about when to fight your battles and when not to.
Sometimes you'll need to fight a battle at a certain time, and if you wait the battle will be lost,...but in order to fight the battle now you'll have to sacrifice the advantage of the higher ground.
Sun Tzu is aware of this, and says that his rules are guidelines, and that the general must weigh up all the variables and make a pragmatic judgement, and not stick dogmatically to the rules as though they were a religion.

 

[nemesiss]

One of Sun Tzu's rules is about maintaining the strategic advantage of the higher ground,...however another of his rules is about when to fight your battles and when not to.

i have not yet read Sun Tzu, but at this point of how our world is now... does there exist a higher ground, with missiles which can be fired thousands of kilometers away, fighter planes, satilites with high resolution camera's and the possible use of nuclear weaponry.

as for the teaching of the art of war, i think it can be of use for management functions, and how to make use of your "soldiers" optimally and creating a high success rate.

as for unwardill's proposal, i find it a reasonable position.
i think "mission accomplished" is a great example how ignorance people were about the situation of iraq.
im still curious how long it will take before america is completely out of there... i assume it will probably take another 3 years... atleast.


a current situation is the teaching of the holocaust.
alot of history teacher didn't feel compfortable with it, due to multi-culturism.
because of this, alot of young people have a complete lack of understanding what happened during those times and some even glorify the concentrationcamp because of their ignorance.
to deal with this issue, school have now ordered teacher to do so.

and its not that surprising that it happened around now... since in holland on the 4th of may we have Dodenherdenking (rememberance of the dead) where we remember and honor those who fought (and dead) and fight for the freedom of others.
and 5th of may we have bevrijdingsdag (libertyday) where commerate our freedom, which was then reclaimed on 5th of may, 1945 from nazi germany by the allied forces.

these two days of moarning and celebration are to remember us that freedom is a precious gift that must never be taken away, though it should be shared.

 

[5810Singer]

One of Sun Tzu's rules is about maintaining the strategic advantage of the higher ground,...however another of his rules is about when to fight your battles and when not to.

i have not yet read Sun Tzu, but at this point of how our world is now... does there exist a higher ground, with missiles which can be fired thousands of kilometers away, fighter planes, satilites with high resolution camera's and the possible use of nuclear weaponry.

The modern military term for this is "Controlling the Heights", and it mainly means the use of aerial force these days.

"Securing the higher ground" in modern warfare means knocking out your enemies air-forces, so that your air-forces can "control the heights".

BTW, I agree with Unwardil that The Art of War should be taught in schools, but unlike many people I believe it's lessons can be applied throughout life, and are not solely applicable to strategic and/or competitive situations.

Sun Tzu said that the no matter how cleverly you win your battles, true skill lies in gaining your objectives without fighting any battles at all.

 

[Master_Ghost_Knight]

I have been informaly teached the art of war at Uni, not the Sun Tzu version hell no, we just focus on fucking some shit up.
In a more serious noteit was somewhat anavoidable being my field aerospace and frankly speaking the most sofisticated of aerospace aplication are bellic in nature. The collecion will not be complete if we talked about planes and not about fighters (how to make it better and how to screw them better), if we talk about communications and not talk about encription (and how not to screw someone else communications, which in turn teach us how to screw them), if we talk about rockets without talking about sending it somewhere which can include someones house or to intercept a target (like a plane), if we talk about navigation without talking about restricted air space (how will they fuck your shit up if you violate it, military charts, millitary grade GPS), talk about radars and not about how can you make them blind, talk about the litle red riddinghood without the mean bad wolf.... I think i have gone out on a tagent there.
It did initially upset me (and it still does a litle) how nauraly they talk about stuff that are mainly used to screw people up. But I have a feeling that what you meant was something else.

 

[Unwardil]

Yes, I was specifically referring to Sun Tsu's 13 part essay, 'The Art Of War'. The actual book and what it actually says.

 

[RichardMNixon]

One of Sun Tzu's rules is about maintaining the strategic advantage of the higher ground,...however another of his rules is about when to fight your battles and when not to.

i have not yet read Sun Tzu, but at this point of how our world is now... does there exist a higher ground, with missiles which can be fired thousands of kilometers away, fighter planes, satilites with high resolution camera's and the possible use of nuclear weaponry.

If you're in a hyper-modern, combined-arms, Red Storm tank battle kind of war, then no probably not. On a small scale though, if you're a soldier patrolling Iraq, I can't imagine you'd want to be on the ground fighting someone on a roof.

 

[Unwardil]

See, the tactics of combat are only discussed in one chapter out of 13. There's a lot in there about maneuver and choosing your ground though, which is useful even today. Things like 'Don't fight in a swamp. Just don't.' *cough vietnam *cough.

 

[Case]

Nah, teach art in the school of war.

 

[Shydrow]

I aprove of having it as an option for those with free time who wish to learn it but its like Shakespeare's books. It would get a higher % of those who disliked it or didn't care for it then those who do. Though i would push for it in schools if it ever had a chance to get in i would rather make it optional and endorced a lot in class then force a student to read it cause it could help them deal with issues in life and competition.

 

[Steve5513]

Just stick it somewhere in the history class.



Actually, I should probably read it before making a decision on this.

 

[nasher168]

Sun Tzu was a bit of a barbarian, if his contemporaries are anything to go by.
Here is Ssu-Ma Ch'ien's account of an incident when he tried to teach the King of Wu about commanding:

Sun Tzu Wu was a native of the Ch`i State. His ART OF
WAR brought him to the notice of Ho Lu, [2] King of Wu. Ho
Lu said to him: "I have carefully perused your 13 chapters.
May I submit your theory of managing soldiers to a slight
test?"
Sun Tzu replied: "You may."
Ho Lu asked: "May the test be applied to women?"
The answer was again in the affirmative, so arrangements
were made to bring 180 ladies out of the Palace. Sun Tzu
divided them into two companies, and placed one of the King's
favorite concubines at the head of each. He then bade them
all take spears in their hands, and addressed them thus: "I
presume you know the difference between front and back, right
hand and left hand?"
The girls replied: Yes.
Sun Tzu went on: "When I say "Eyes front," you must
look straight ahead. When I say "Left turn," you must face
towards your left hand. When I say "Right turn," you must
face towards your right hand. When I say "About turn," you
must face right round towards your back."
Again the girls assented. The words of command having
been thus explained, he set up the halberds and battle-axes
in order to begin the drill. Then, to the sound of drums, he
gave the order "Right turn." But the girls only burst out
laughing. Sun Tzu said: "If words of command are not clear
and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, then
the general is to blame."
So he started drilling them again, and this time gave
the order "Left turn," whereupon the girls once more burst
into fits of laughter. Sun Tzu: "If words of command are
not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly
understood, the general is to blame. But if his orders ARE
clear, and the soldiers nevertheless disobey, then it is the
fault of their officers."
So saying, he ordered the leaders of the two companies
to be beheaded. Now the king of Wu was watching the scene
from the top of a raised pavilion; and when he saw that his
favorite concubines were about to be executed, he was greatly
alarmed and hurriedly sent down the following message: "We
are now quite satisfied as to our general's ability to handle
troops. If We are bereft of these two concubines, our meat
and drink will lose their savor. It is our wish that they
shall not be beheaded."
Sun Tzu replied: "Having once received His Majesty's
commission to be the general of his forces, there are certain
commands of His Majesty which, acting in that capacity, I am
unable to accept."
Accordingly, he had the two leaders beheaded, and
straightway installed the pair next in order as leaders in
their place. When this had been done, the drum was sounded
for the drill once more; and the girls went through all the
evolutions, turning to the right or to the left, marching
ahead or wheeling back, kneeling or standing, with perfect
accuracy and precision, not venturing to utter a sound. Then
Sun Tzu sent a messenger to the King saying: "Your soldiers,
Sire, are now properly drilled and disciplined, and ready for
your majesty's inspection. They can be put to any use that
their sovereign may desire; bid them go through fire and
water, and they will not disobey."

:shock: :shock: :shock:

 

[Unwardil]

I didn't say they should make Sun Tzu some kind of moral pillar of perfection, he was a general and a very good one and he wrote a book about how to win at war which is still very relevant today. That story is actually a very good reason why in a democracy, the citizens (The sovereign in that sense) should have an understanding of war and it's operation so that they do not end up hobbling their own military or asking it to do things which it is ill suited to do.

 

[nasher168]

No, no. There is plenty of good stuff to be found in the book itself and I support your position to an extent. I didn't make it very clear, but I just meant the previous post as a sort of aside.

 

[Unwardil]

I've got that exact same story on the preface of my copy of the book.

Sun Tsu was defiantly one of history's greatest badasses if it's at all true.