Suicide

[bluejatheist]

The easily depressed may hit the road...

(Edited a bit to improve questions)

This is an interesting subject, I'd like to see what LOR has to say on suicide. Here are some questions to chew on and discuss; I'll answer them myself later. Some are actually multiple questions grouped together. Some notable cases of suicide are present at the bottom of this post, if the questions presented are too vague, feel free to answer them in terms of one of the cases, or of the case of another person of your choosing.
Enjoy;

"Criticism" in this context I mean as, the primary objections you have to suicide.

In the context of this thread, "Suicide" is meant as: Causing one's own solitary death, intentionally by some sort of means for some reason other than being compelled by an outside pressure. Does not include things such as suicide bombing, murder suicide, or forced suicide. One person dies - the person committing suicide - and they do so by their own hand, without outside force. Includes suicide due to mental illness and otherwise.


1: If someone commits suicide how would you view them morally, logically, culturally and religiously(if applicable)?
If it depends on their situation, please explain.

2: Should attempted(but failed) suicide have legal consequences? Is there any logic in being charged with the crime of 'attempted murder of yourself?' Is attempting suicide a right, as it is your life and your body?

3: Do you think suicide could possibly be considered a 'sound of mind, conscious' choice(Barring situations where suicide is an alternative to 'worse' fates i.e. 9/11 jumpers, and forced suicide i.e. Irwin Rommel), or is the serious consideration of it a sign of lack of soundness of mind? Is it possible to be mentally healthy but also willing to end one's own life?

4: Presuming that an individual, having made arrangements to minimize the financial consequences of their death on others, with no dependents to suffer directly from the loss, commits suicide, would you find any reason why they should be criticized, if it was their choice and had no affect on you or direct consequences on others?

5: Does anyone have any business criticizing or pitying someone for their lack of value for their life? Can it be argued that a preference to live over dying is universal, or subjective and depending on the individual? If someone simply does not want to live, and is in some way found to be without disorder such as depression, do they have a right to end their life, or should they be denied this option and undergo rehabilitation? Does being born into this life obligate you to live it to natural* death?

6: If one primary reason for any criticism is the emotional loss inflicted on family**, what if there was no family connection to be harmed?

7: (For religious members) What is your religion's view of suicide? Are the consequences of suicide under your religion fair, in your view?

*: By natural, I mean through the natural course of life and it's events, whatever they might be; all causes of death BUT intentionally self inflicted
**: Family may be taken to included all those close- Parents, siblings, children, extended family, friends, loved ones in general.
_______________________________

Some historical cases to look into when considering questions, the biographies are brief, please refer to links for more complete information.

Kevin Carter::
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Carter
http://www.africansuccess.org/visuFiche.php?id=1029&lang=en

A war photographer in post-apartheid South Africa. Witness to countless cases of cruelty in warfare, and member of the Bang-Bang Club. Noted for his controversial photograph of an african child collapsed and starving with a scavenger bird lurking in the distance. Committed suicide via car exhaust and a hose. His rationale is recorded as such:

I am depressed ... without phone ... money for rent ... money for child support ... money for debts ... money!!! ... I am haunted by the vivid memories of killings and corpses and anger and pain ... of starving or wounded children, of trigger-happy madmen, often police, of killer executioners ... I have gone to join Ken [recently deceased colleague Ken Oosterbroek] if I am that lucky.

Alan Turing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing

Renown computer scientist, provided important service for the United Kingdom during World War II. Convicted of crimes for homosexual acts with the options of either a prison sentence or chemical castration. Likely committed suicide via cyanide in an apple. It is suspected he used such a method to allow his mother reasonable doubt that his death was an accident.


Kurt Cobain:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_cobain

American singer, member of the band Nirvana. Though subject to some controversy, he likely committed suicide via firearm after dealing with depression, addiction and other issues for some time. He had dependents at the time.

 

[Laurens]

1: What is your position on whether someone who commits suicide is deserving or undeserving of criticism for their choice?

Its difficult to say really, on the one hand I think committing suicide is a spiteful and horrible thing to do. Take Kurt Cobain for example, he had a three year old daughter and a wife when he killed himself, and I think that killing yourself is a rather terrible thing for those people you leave behind, I mean it's not the kind of think that you forget easily.

Then again, I cannot possibly imagine what it is like inside the head of someone who has decided to end their own life. For that reason it's difficult to know whether I'd be justified in criticising them.

Also it is hard to make a blanket criticism of suicide as a whole, each case should be considered on its own merits.

2: Should attempted(but failed) suicide have legal consequences? Is there any logic in being charged with the crime of 'attempted murder of yourself?' Is attempting suicide a right, as it is your life and your body?

I don't think it should have legal consequences, other than getting someone the help that they might need.

3: Do you think suicide could possibly be considered a 'sound of mind, conscious' choice(Barring situations where suicide is an alternative to 'worse' fates i.e. 9/11 jumpers, and forced suicide i.e. Irwin Rommel), or is the serious consideration of it a sign of lack of soundness of mind? Is it possible to be mentally healthy but also willing to end one's own life?

As I said earlier I find it difficult to comprehend what it must be like to want to end ones own life, and actually go through with it, so I'd be inclined to say that someone who commits suicide is not sound of mind, but then again I'm not a psychologist, so my opinion is meaningless.

4: Presuming that an individual, having made arrangements to minimize the financial consequences of their death on others, with no dependents to suffer directly from the loss, commits suicide, would you find any reason why they should be criticized, if it was their choice and had no affect on you or direct consequences on others?

As I said; I think that it is somewhat morally objectionable to leave loved ones to cope with a suicide. Can you imagine coming home to find that a family member had blown their brains out or something equally horrific? That kind of thing is terribly hard to bear, and terribly hard to get over. That is precisely the reason why I wouldn't want to kill myself because I'd hate to think of the suffering it would cause my family.

5: Does anyone have any business criticizing or pitying someone for their lack of value for their life? Can it be argued that a preference to live over dying is universal, or subjective and depending on the individual? If someone simply does not want to live, and is in some way found to be without disorder such as depression, do they have a right to end their life, or should they be denied this option and undergo rehabilitation? Does being born into this life obligate you to live it to natural* death?

I don't think that everyone should be obligated to live, but I do think that the option of rehabilitation should definitely be available, just as it is available to people with mental disorders.

I guess if someone wants to end their life it is their choice to do so, and it is ultimately down to them if they wish to inflict suffering upon others by doing so.

6: If one primary reason for any criticism is the emotional loss inflicted on family**, what if there was no family connection to be harmed?

Then I guess it's like a tree falling in the woods when no one is around

7: Under what situations would suicide be justified and understandable?

I don't think I'd ever understand someone who wanted to kill themselves, and I'm not entirely sure whether it is something which can fit into a category of justified or unjustified. I mean if it is caused by unsoundness of mind, then its more in the category with a schizophrenic who kills someone during a psychotic episode, 'justified' or 'unjustified' don't really apply in this case.

I could sit here and judge it as being completely unjustified, but I'm sure people who kill themselves feel perfectly justified in what they are doing, or perhaps justification doesn't enter into it for them, I dunno?

 

[Prolescum]

1: What is your position on whether someone who commits suicide is deserving or undeserving of criticism for their choice?

Anything can be critiqued. Whether or not is was deserved doesn't come into it. Perhaps I misunderstand the question.

2: Should attempted(but failed) suicide have legal consequences? Is there any logic in being charged with the crime of 'attempted murder of yourself?' Is attempting suicide a right, as it is your life and your body?

No.
Probably, but I can't see it.
No, but then why would anyone who is suicidal give a toss?

On reflection, I suppose you could argue that article 12 of the UDHR (No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.) could cover such an event.

I'm in a bit of a quandary about "rights" at the moment; I believe there are fundamental principles about humanity and looking after one another etc and that we should all recognise them officially, but there are question marks over what should actually be a right.

3: Do you think suicide could possibly be considered a 'sound of mind, conscious' choice(Barring situations where suicide is an alternative to 'worse' fates i.e. 9/11 jumpers, and forced suicide i.e. Irwin Rommel), or is the serious consideration of it a sign of lack of soundness of mind? Is it possible to be mentally healthy but also willing to end one's own life?

The former, but I am in no way certain nor professionally capable of such a judgement.
Yes, I expect so.

4: Presuming that an individual, having made arrangements to minimize the financial consequences of their death on others, with no dependents to suffer directly from the loss, commits suicide, would you find any reason why they should be criticized, if it was their choice and had no affect on you or direct consequences on others?

They will probably be criticised regardless of any extenuating circumstances. Humans are like that. Again, the participant is unlikely to care.
As I'm sure you know, people have their own particular moral set, and if one holds that suicide is fine, why is it my business? I'm a firm believer that I'll do whatever I want with my body, you do whatever you like with yours.

5: Does anyone have any business criticizing or pitying someone for their lack of value for their life? Can it be argued that a preference to live over dying is universal, or subjective and depending on the individual? If someone simply does not want to live, and is in some way found to be without disorder such as depression, do they have a right to end their life, or should they be denied this option and undergo rehabilitation? Does being born into this life obligate you to live it to natural* death?

Not really, but you can't stop them. It might have some value too.
Hmm. Difficult, as there are those who purport a belief that for suffering to end, everything must die.
They don't have a right, as rights are granted by governments and I'm pretty sure that isn't one of them, but whether they should be allowed? I think, generally, yes. It's a similar argument to euthanasia.
Good question. I don't think so.

6: If one primary reason for any criticism is the emotional loss inflicted on family**, what if there was no family connection to be harmed?

That's usually the primary criticism. I think that if "the family" were completely unaware that the participant felt this way, they're really in no position to cry foul.

7: Under what situations would suicide be justified and understandable?

I'm not sure I can answer this.

 

[Dean]

bluejatheist

This is an interesting subject, I'd like to see what LOR has to say on suicide. ["¦]

Indeed it is, and it is not of course the most pleasant of subjects to grapple with. I imagine the general consensus around here is fairly indifferent with regards to suicide, meaning that there's no logical basis to suggest that it would be right to make it illegal. But I will answer your questions as best as I can, since I feel the subject is quite often misunderstood and misapprehended. We also have this topic: Death, which may also be of interest to you if you've yet to post in it already.

["¦] 1: What is your position on whether someone who commits suicide is deserving or undeserving of criticism for their choice? ["¦]

There are a few problems with the phrasing of this statement, which I feel you may not have noticed. As Prolescum so rightly pointed out, almost anything can be deserving of some criticism, especially when discussing something as context-dependent as moral issues, where one may struggle to find people who all agree on e.g. the terms that they are using and alike. It is obviously an individual matter. Having said all of that, it's pretty hard to criticise someone who's dead. Just saying is all.

I can only assume that you meant to ask whether or not the act of suicide in and of itself is wrong. So long as it is an individual choice, and you are not pressured into it by anyone,then I'm struggling to see how it can be a moral issue. I would fully accept the choice of an individual to kill themselves, so long as they had thought that decision through, of course. It's not something that ought to be rushed into. But having exhausted all other available options (if any), then I can't see any reason to be dismissive or critical of their decision. Again, of course; like most moral issues, it depends on the specific circumstances of the individual who makes the decision to commit suicide. But in the overwhelming majority of circumstances, my answer would be "No.", if you were to ask me whether or not I should interfere in someone else's decision to take their own life. Hope this sums it up succinctly enough ...

["¦] 2: Should attempted (but failed) suicide have legal consequences? Is there any logic in being charged with the crime of 'attempted murder of yourself?' Is attempting suicide a right, as it is your life and your body? ["¦]

So ... this is actually two questions, and the first of them deals with some of the points I made in the first question, somewhat. But the answer for me is No. I think DepricatedZero summed it up quite nicely in the chat-room, albeit we were talking about seat-belt/helmet laws, etc. But I think his point is still valid. It was something to the effect of "I've got no problem with laws that tell me not to hurt others, but frankly, laws that tell me not to hurt myself can f*** off". Although in this case, instead of "hurt", I would replace that with the word "kill". The principle is the same in either case. As I said, one cannot criticize someone who is dead. But as for attempted suicides that have failed, I can see no real reason to enact laws to prevent this from happening. You can dictate what happens to your body so long as you are of age, I guess. I only used that phrase because I feel this issue has parallels with the abortion so-called "debate", over whether or not women deserve the right to terminate their pregnancies, for whatever reason.

Of course it is a limited analogy, but it works. Again, the principle is much the same. The idea that suicide represents "murder" is fallacious because suicide is carried out by an individual who has made the decision to commit suicide. It's not the act of going out and killing another human being against their will like murder is, etc. Human beings seem to be the only biological organisms even among apes that are capable of this behaviour, because of our higher developed logical faculties, if only slightly. As I said, suicide typically is not spontaneous and involves a considerable degree of thought before hand, and quite often, almost 90% of the time, I would've said -- the suicidal thoughts do not come to fruition after the person has truly thought the issue through. As for the other 10%, there is no reason to interfere, and that's an end to it.

["¦][ 3: Do you think suicide could possibly be considered a 'sound of mind, conscious' choice (barring situations where suicide is an alternative to 'worse' fates i.e. 9/11 jumpers, and forced suicide i.e. Irwin Rommel), or is the serious consideration of it a sign of lack of soundness of mind? Is it possible to be mentally healthy but also willing to end one's own life? ["¦]

The answer to this is quite obviously yes, in my opinion. Of course, suicide rates are likely to be higher among populations of people such as those of us inflicted with bipolar I/II disorders, e.g. severe bouts of depression, and emotional hiatus. Emotional hiatus is obviously associated with suicidal thoughts in popular culture, but I don't think that it is the only plausible reason. It seems clear that one might be driven to suicide because of their illness, or because they are in terminal pain. But it doesn't even have to be that either. Consider for instance, people whose family and social relationships have collapsed, people who cannot find work, or are homeless, etc. Mental illness seems to be more of a symptom than a cause.

Quite a lot of people sleeping rough have degrees, at least here in Britain, so it is not just the lesser educated folks, as some have claimed. Nor is it necessary that the said people are mentally ill. They may just simply have had deeply felt social relations fall apart, divorce, etc. Family members dying, fear of a worse fate, as you pointed out, and so on. Hell, a family that my father is quite close friends with had a grandson who committed suicide by ... hanging himself, I think. And this was because his dog had died. Overreacting? Perhaps, and no doubt it left his parents, grandparents, siblings, friends and alike; somewhat traumatized, but as far as I'm aware, he had no hint of mental illness, and he never even told his family about it. The methods of suicide can be painful in and of themselves too, even if the death is quick ... e.g. shooting one's self. People quite often get to that stage and then their finger doesn't work. Literally ...

["¦] 4: Presuming that an individual, having made arrangements to minimize the financial consequences of their death on others, with no dependents to suffer directly from the loss, commits suicide, would you find any reason why they should be criticized, if it was their choice and had no affect on you or direct consequences on others? ["¦]

Other than the misery that may be caused to their initial family members upon their, death, no. It is very admirable , in my opinion , if a person who is planning on committing suicide makes prior preparations to minimize the loss to their loved ones, etc. But even if they don't I still can't find a logical reason to criticize them for their decision after their death, and I feel that I would say much the same thing even if it was a member of my own family. None of my family members have committed suicide that I can recall, but I have had friends who were depressed to the point of near-suicide.

People who are in that kind of situation , at least when they're wholly certain that they are going to go through with it , may; having exhausted all other causes of action, choose to kill themselves. And beforehand they commonly write letters to their loved-ones, such as close friends and family members. I don't know that the concept of "post-mortemic criticism",so to speak, is particularly intelligible, since said person is no longer around to receive it. It's one of those issues where there can be little compromise, I feel, sadly. Suicide isn't a particularly common thing, and thus an actual statistical analysis of suicide-rates is rather rare, so how many actual opinions from experience that you could gather from people on this subject is an open question indeed.

Perhaps you'd care to examine this point a little more depth?

["¦] 5: Does anyone have any business criticizing or pitying someone for their lack of value for their life? Can it be argued that a preference to live over dying is universal, or subjective and depending on the individual? If someone simply does not want to live, and is in some way found to be without disorder such as depression, do they have a right to end their life, or should they be denied this option and undergo rehabilitation? Does being born into this life obligate you to live it to natural* death? ["¦]

I assume you know of Antinatalism. I don't typically side with the forms of argumentation carried out on this subject by folks such as Inmendham and graytaich0, etc, etc. But I'm also not terribly sympathetic to these high-minded conversations about how joyous and amazing life is. Life has good and bad aspects, albeit that's a purely subjective analysis. And life is not necessarily all honey and sunshine. Take for instance, people living in third-world countries, who struggle to find food, are starving, slowly dying of treatable diseases, etc. Life can be nothing but a bout of suffering, depending on the individual in question, their circumstances of birth, etcetera.

But as I said, this is a purely subjective evaluation, and the decision to de-value one's own life, or life per se is typically more of a philosophical one than a practical one, and I don't think that suicide usually comes from a disregard for the value of life in and of itself. It is normally simply the case that someone who is in terrible or difficult circumstances feels that it would be best for them to end their perpetuated suffering, and in this case, the only way to do that might perhaps be to end one's own Life. Whether or not you think that's a well-reasoned assessment, is the question. Do you?

And as for the other point, the answer is just blatantly no. A person who has made the decision to kill themselves may do so, and they are free to refuse "rehabilitation" if they so wish. I have no problem with rehabilitation, so long as it is done with the consent of the person in question, otherwise it ceases to be rehabilitative at all to my mind, at least. But if the person does consent to it, then yes. Rehabilitation is a means by which mentally unhealthy people can regain health. But again, this tacidly makes the admission that people who are suicidal are by definition mentally unwell, which is not necessarily true, as I said earlier.

["¦]6: If one primary reason for any criticism is the emotional loss inflicted on family**, what if there was no family connection to be harmed? ["¦]

In that case it could only be an individual decision, though I suppose it's also possible that the decision may have been instigated by close friends. Discussing the issue with others before carrying out suicide is usually unlikely to happen, since it would cause considerable emotional damage to the family or friends or whatever prior to the death.

But if there are no family-members to be hurt in question, there could still be friends, and if not, then the decision would not hurt anyone other than themselves, e.g. having killed themselves via their own decision. If so then I can see no reason why suicide would be disallowed, legally or otherwise. Again, just my opinion, though I feel that it IS sound.

I've skipped the next 2 questions, since one of them is so vague there could be billions of distinctly different responses to it, and the last one doesn't apply to me, since I am not a religious forum member. I am sure Christian and Pagan members, e.g. Hytegia and Dragan Glas et al would be happy to comment on the final question, should they come across this topic ...

Was this a thorough enough response, Bluejay?

 

[bluejatheist]

Anything can be critiqued. Whether or not is was deserved doesn't come into it. Perhaps I misunderstand the question.

I adjusted #1 to try to be more clear


Happy 100 posts to me

 

[Prolescum]

Anything can be critiqued. Whether or not is was deserved doesn't come into it. Perhaps I misunderstand the question.

I adjusted #1 to try to be more clear


Happy 100 posts to me

1: If someone commits suicide how would you view them morally, logically, culturally and religiously(if applicable)?
If it depends on their situation, please explain.

Morally, I'm not opposed in principle.
Logically, I've never been in the position so I don't think I can speak to the rationales.
Culturally, well, it's likely that there are fewer who agree with my stance than disagree. Whether that's right or not is debatable.
Religious objections are not really valid as far as I'm concerned, but I do agree with the sentiment that being the caretakers of this planet, we should hold life in the highest regard.

It is context-sensitive for the same reasons Dean gave above.

...and happy 100.

 

[Anachronous Rex]

(Edited a bit to improve questions)

This is an interesting subject, I'd like to see what LOR has to say on suicide. Here are some questions to chew on and discuss; I'll answer them myself later. Some are actually multiple questions grouped together.

"Criticism" in this context I mean as, the primary objections you have to suicide.

In the context of this thread, "Suicide" is meant as: Causing one's own solitary death, intentionally by some sort of means for some reason other than being compelled by an outside pressure. Does not include things such as suicide bombing, murder suicide, or forced suicide. One person dies - the person committing suicide - and they do so by their own hand, without outside force. Includes suicide due to mental illness and otherwise.


1: If someone commits suicide how would you view them morally, logically, culturally and religiously(if applicable)?
If it depends on their situation, please explain.

I would generally pity them the circumstances that drove them to this choice, though perhaps not always. A man who throws himself upon a grenade to save another is committing suicide (albeit impulsively), and though I lament their loss I tend to think highly of them.

That said, I have become perfectly convinced that one's life is not purely one's own, that it belongs as well to those who care for you. Suicide ends your life, but it can devalue the lives of others (which, for my money, is much worse.) Accordingly I tend to think that if it is bearable to live one ought to make the effort. I suppose this could give me cause to think ill of someone who threw away their life for what seemed an excessively trivial reason (that Suicide Club film comes to mind), but as I am not privy to people's inter lives I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt.

2: Should attempted(but failed) suicide have legal consequences? Is there any logic in being charged with the crime of 'attempted murder of yourself?' Is attempting suicide a right, as it is your life and your body?

One of the problems with suicide is that it tends to leave a mess; legally and often literally (this is aside from the obvious emotional cost that is payed by friends and relations.) A lot of this burden falls to the taxpayer and next of kin, very often police units have to be brought in to rule out homicide (costing more money and distracting from investigations of actual homicide), some methods can ruin large parts of a building, and so on, so it is a fairly antisocial thing to do. I can see wanting to discourage the practice for this reason, unfortunately I don't think that deterrents are likely to be very effective in this case; and really making a suicidal person's life worse through legal action probably will not reduce their risk of repeat offense. So ultimately no, I do not think it should be punished.

However, given that thoughts of suicide are often produced by what are now treatable chemical disorders, at the very least I think that those who attempt suicide ought be compelled to seek medical and psychological consultation. And let us not forget that very often attempted suicide is not what it appears to be (I'm sure by now we are all familiar with the phrase, "a cry for help"), so even more so. This, I think, should be done with legal force if necessary.


This does, however, bring up an interesting point: if there were a legal means to pursue suicide openly, many of the above costs could be reduced if not avoided. An argument for legalized euthanasia perhaps?

3: Do you think suicide could possibly be considered a 'sound of mind, conscious' choice(Barring situations where suicide is an alternative to 'worse' fates i.e. 9/11 jumpers, and forced suicide i.e. Irwin Rommel), or is the serious consideration of it a sign of lack of soundness of mind? Is it possible to be mentally healthy but also willing to end one's own life?

I'm not sure quite how to interpret what lies between the parentheses, because I think that suicidal people almost always interpret suicide as an alternative to something worse, even if that worse thing is just living ones life. Perhaps someone can give be an example to the contrary to consider, but I can't seem to think of one.

I suppose the 'jumping on a grenade' example I gave above, because it is impulsive, might qualify (people interviewed after performing similar dangerous feats tend to say, "I didn't think, I just acted"), but for the same reason this example could not be considered 'sound of mind.'

In any case, I don't think you have to be mentally ill to commit suicide, no.

4: Presuming that an individual, having made arrangements to minimize the financial consequences of their death on others, with no dependents to suffer directly from the loss, commits suicide, would you find any reason why they should be criticized, if it was their choice and had no affect on you or direct consequences on others?

Well this individual is clearly going out of their way not to be a bother, and I applaud that. I do think that if life is bearable one ought to make the effort to live, if only for the emotional benefit of others. Suicide often comes off as a horribly cruel insult to loved ones because it says, in effect, "you weren't worth living for."

Again though, I am not in a position to be the judge of these people's inter lives. I can't say what is bearable and what is not.

5: Does anyone have any business criticizing or pitying someone for their lack of value for their life? Can it be argued that a preference to live over dying is universal, or subjective and depending on the individual? If someone simply does not want to live, and is in some way found to be without disorder such as depression, do they have a right to end their life, or should they be denied this option and undergo rehabilitation? Does being born into this life obligate you to live it to natural* death?

Although I disagree, I wouldn't criticize anyone for lacking a sense of value in their own life, I might (and have) criticized them for lacking a sense of the value their life has to other people.

Pity arises organically and I feel it whether I have any business doing so or not; though not in all cases (sometimes there is dignity in death.)

6: If one primary reason for any criticism is the emotional loss inflicted on family**, what if there was no family connection to be harmed?

It is still generally naive to think that nobody cares if you die, though anyone in this situation has my condolences. Under these circumstances, and assuming you had also made the arrangements of question #4, I wouldn't try to stop them. The only argument I might make is that it would still be better, in my view, to try and do something positive instead. As long as you don't care about your life, you might as well do aid work in some dangerous country, or something along those lines.

 

[The Felonius Pope]

My neighbor recently committed suicide. He was a former US Marine and suffered from some mental issues connected to the Vietnam war. I purchased his riding mower from his brother and when I entered the man's house to retrieve it I found the house to be in complete disarray. There was dust and spider webs everywhere, moldy food on the counters, dog feces on the floor, and clothes piled everywhere. I would probably say that suicide in his case was morally justifiable, considering how he lived. :|

 

[KittenKoder]

Aaah suicide, the least examined yet excessively oppressed conundrum of all living beings.

The discussion of suicide is not what bothers me, what bothers me is that the only answer that's voiced loudly is "it's a bad thing." That kind of thinking is wrong though. It's not a bad thing, it's not a good thing, it's just is a thing. In many cases it can be a good thing for the person, we really cannot say unless someone has some magical eye to see into the future and know their life would improve soon. But there are times when it is meaningless, just a really low point in emotions that overpowers the instinct to survive.

We hear suicide being used as a weapon even, citing statistics to say that something is wrong. Yet in reality, no one ever really does anything to help prevent suicide. That is what actually pisses me off. We know certain groups are prone to it, we even know why, but instead of correcting society with little to no repercussions to society as a whole we push those prone into situations or on medications that are, let's be real here, ineffective.

People with depression are prone to suicidal thoughts, yet what do we do? We put them on medication that has as a side effect "thoughts of suicide." Homosexuals are prone to suicide because of being oppressed, so what do we do as a society, tell them "it'll get better" while denying their basic liberties. Transgendered are prone to suicide because they cannot accept their gender, but what do we do? We protect the doctors by forcing them to wait for decades before "proving" they are serious about it, that's typically the time they commit suicide now, in case you don't know. Vets are prone to suicide because they cannot find a place in society after returning from a very ugly place, and we just shrug, throw some money at them, and walk on by. Teens are prone to suicide when they are bullied, and what we do is tell them that they're just victims and have to be protected ... which is what the bully has already told them anyway.

Look at these examples, what we need to slow suicide (there is not ending it) without justified reasons is not to outlaw it, not to put closer watches to "the signs" (there are no real signs), but to address the reasons these people are prone to it. We need to fix society, not them. There is nothing wrong with the people who commit suicide, there is something wrong, extremely wrong, with society and how we treat each other. We are stuck on archaic and religious concepts that are pretty close to "possession" medicine in 2012, there is something wrong with that.

 

[The Felonius Pope]

There is nothing wrong with the people who commit suicide

I feel this way about my neighbor. He had issues, but he wasn't a bad person. What really gets me upset is when people say that you will go to hell if you commit suicide.

 

[bluejatheist]

Wonderful, wonderful posts, comrades! I shall make an effort to write up some replies to discuss further soon.

 

[CosmicJoghurt]

Wonderful, wonderful posts, comrades! I shall make an effort to write up some replies to discuss further soon.

You communist biatch.

 

[bluejatheist]

Wonderful, wonderful posts, comrades! I shall make an effort to write up some replies to discuss further soon.

You communist biatch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaw5Zm6EskA&feature=related


---
Will post Srs reply soon

 

[The Felonius Pope]

You communist biatch.

Повторяю: этот человек является вашим другом, он борется за свободу.

 

[bluejatheist]

 

[Anachronous Rex]

I sense we've drifted from the topic...

 

[The Felonius Pope]

I sense we've drifted from the topic...

Why would you say that? Being serious now, is there anything you would like to say on the topic?

 

[bluejatheist]

Dean: My reply is brief but that's generally because I found the bulk of what you wrote agreeable.

There are a few problems with the phrasing of this statement, which I feel you may not have noticed. As Prolescum so rightly pointed out, almost anything can be deserving of some criticism, especially when discussing something as context-dependent as moral issues, where one may struggle to find people who all agree on e.g. the terms that they are using and alike. It is obviously an individual matter. Having said all of that, it's pretty hard to criticise someone who's dead. Just saying is all.

A different choice of words would be, is suicide in broad terms a bad thing? Obviously you inferred that and answered.

I can only assume that you meant to ask whether or not the act of suicide in and of itself is wrong. So long as it is an individual choice, and you are not pressured into it by anyone,then I'm struggling to see how it can be a moral issue. I would fully accept the choice of an individual to kill themselves, so long as they had thought that decision through, of course. It's not something that ought to be rushed into. But having exhausted all other available options (if any), then I can't see any reason to be dismissive or critical of their decision. Again, of course; like most moral issues, it depends on the specific circumstances of the individual who makes the decision to commit suicide. But in the overwhelming majority of circumstances, my answer would be "No.", if you were to ask me whether or not I should interfere in someone else's decision to take their own life. Hope this sums it up succinctly enough ...

I think this in turn, depends on whether a suicidal person is in a temporary state of depression or lack of will to live. Would you interfere with an attempt at suicide if it was due to an illness or emotional state that may be treated or come to an end?

So ... this is actually two questions, and the first of them deals with some of the points I made in the first question, somewhat. But the answer for me is No. I think DepricatedZero summed it up quite nicely in the chat-room, albeit we were talking about seat-belt/helmet laws, etc. But I think his point is still valid. It was something to the effect of "I've got no problem with laws that tell me not to hurt others, but frankly, laws that tell me not to hurt myself can f*** off". Although in this case, instead of "hurt", I would replace that with the word "kill". The principle is the same in either case. As I said, one cannot criticize someone who is dead. But as for attempted suicides that have failed, I can see no real reason to enact laws to prevent this from happening. You can dictate what happens to your body so long as you are of age, I guess. I only used that phrase because I feel this issue has parallels with the abortion so-called "debate", over whether or not women deserve the right to terminate their pregnancies, for whatever reason.

Of course it is a limited analogy, but it works. Again, the principle is much the same. The idea that suicide represents "murder" is fallacious because suicide is carried out by an individual who has made the decision to commit suicide. It's not the act of going out and killing another human being against their will like murder is, etc. Human beings seem to be the only biological organisms even among apes that are capable of this behaviour, because of our higher developed logical faculties, if only slightly. As I said, suicide typically is not spontaneous and involves a considerable degree of thought before hand, and quite often, almost 90% of the time, I would've said -- the suicidal thoughts do not come to fruition after the person has truly thought the issue through. As for the other 10%, there is no reason to interfere, and that's an end to it.

How about assisted suicide and such? Also what about group suicides, such as in cults/religions. Should those be prevented because of the circumstances?

The answer to this is quite obviously yes, in my opinion. Of course, suicide rates are likely to be higher among populations of people such as those of us inflicted with bipolar I/II disorders, e.g. severe bouts of depression, and emotional hiatus. Emotional hiatus is obviously associated with suicidal thoughts in popular culture, but I don't think that it is the only plausible reason. It seems clear that one might be driven to suicide because of their illness, or because they are in terminal pain. But it doesn't even have to be that either. Consider for instance, people whose family and social relationships have collapsed, people who cannot find work, or are homeless, etc. Mental illness seems to be more of a symptom than a cause.

Quite a lot of people sleeping rough have degrees, at least here in Britain, so it is not just the lesser educated folks, as some have claimed. Nor is it necessary that the said people are mentally ill. They may just simply have had deeply felt social relations fall apart, divorce, etc. Family members dying, fear of a worse fate, as you pointed out, and so on. Hell, a family that my father is quite close friends with had a grandson who committed suicide by ... hanging himself, I think. And this was because his dog had died. Overreacting? Perhaps, and no doubt it left his parents, grandparents, siblings, friends and alike; somewhat traumatized, but as far as I'm aware, he had no hint of mental illness, and he never even told his family about it. The methods of suicide can be painful in and of themselves too, even if the death is quick ... e.g. shooting one's self. People quite often get to that stage and then their finger doesn't work. Literally ...

Going by a existential/nihilistic approach to life, does it really matter whatsoever why one commits suicide or how many that person leaves behind? Does poverty count towards a more temporary problem that shouldnt be allowed to lead to suicide without interference?

Other than the misery that may be caused to their initial family members upon their, death, no. It is very admirable , in my opinion , if a person who is planning on committing suicide makes prior preparations to minimize the loss to their loved ones, etc. But even if they don't I still can't find a logical reason to criticize them for their decision after their death, and I feel that I would say much the same thing even if it was a member of my own family. None of my family members have committed suicide that I can recall, but I have had friends who were depressed to the point of near-suicide.

People who are in that kind of situation , at least when they're wholly certain that they are going to go through with it , may; having exhausted all other causes of action, choose to kill themselves. And beforehand they commonly write letters to their loved-ones, such as close friends and family members. I don't know that the concept of "post-mortemic criticism",so to speak, is particularly intelligible, since said person is no longer around to receive it. It's one of those issues where there can be little compromise, I feel, sadly. Suicide isn't a particularly common thing, and thus an actual statistical analysis of suicide-rates is rather rare, so how many actual opinions from experience that you could gather from people on this subject is an open question indeed.

Perhaps you'd care to examine this point a little more depth?

How about prisoners, should a convicted criminal or significant crimes such as murder, rape, etc be denied to ability to commit suicide to ensure they are punished by prison time?

I assume you know of Antinatalism. I don't typically side with the forms of argumentation carried out on this subject by folks such as Inmendham and graytaich0, etc, etc. But I'm also not terribly sympathetic to these high-minded conversations about how joyous and amazing life is. Life has good and bad aspects, albeit that's a purely subjective analysis. And life is not necessarily all honey and sunshine. Take for instance, people living in third-world countries, who struggle to find food, are starving, slowly dying of treatable diseases, etc. Life can be nothing but a bout of suffering, depending on the individual in question, their circumstances of birth, etcetera.

But as I said, this is a purely subjective evaluation, and the decision to de-value one's own life, or life per se is typically more of a philosophical one than a practical one, and I don't think that suicide usually comes from a disregard for the value of life in and of itself. It is normally simply the case that someone who is in terrible or difficult circumstances feels that it would be best for them to end their perpetuated suffering, and in this case, the only way to do that might perhaps be to end one's own Life. Whether or not you think that's a well-reasoned assessment, is the question. Do you?

And as for the other point, the answer is just blatantly no. A person who has made the decision to kill themselves may do so, and they are free to refuse "rehabilitation" if they so wish. I have no problem with rehabilitation, so long as it is done with the consent of the person in question, otherwise it ceases to be rehabilitative at all to my mind, at least. But if the person does consent to it, then yes. Rehabilitation is a means by which mentally unhealthy people can regain health. But again, this tacidly makes the admission that people who are suicidal are by definition mentally unwell, which is not necessarily true, as I said earlier.

Again, if a person is demonstrably being suicidal due to illness or situation that is temporary or treatable, should they be rehabilitated for their own sake?

In that case it could only be an individual decision, though I suppose it's also possible that the decision may have been instigated by close friends. Discussing the issue with others before carrying out suicide is usually unlikely to happen, since it would cause considerable emotional damage to the family or friends or whatever prior to the death.

But if there are no family-members to be hurt in question, there could still be friends, and if not, then the decision would not hurt anyone other than themselves, e.g. having killed themselves via their own decision. If so then I can see no reason why suicide would be disallowed, legally or otherwise. Again, just my opinion, though I feel that it IS sound.

Aside from laws to perhaps limit the mess, I wouldn't see reason to make it illegal or whatnot myself.

Was this a thorough enough response, Bluejay?

Overly so, this issue is such a subjective matter I wouldn't want you to trouble yourself with long replies

 

[Enemynarwhal]

1: If someone commits suicide how would you view them morally, logically, culturally and religiously(if applicable)?
If it depends on their situation, please explain.

Well it appears to be a fairly common reaction to hate them, but I can't understand that. I would agree that it's at least somewhat morally unjustifiable to leave dependents behind but other than that a person's life is their own. If they wish to cease their ability to experience then for them to desire to do so I would assume that, for them in that moment, it must seem like a good idea or maybe even a necessary one. I've been really depressed before and when I was in that state I may not have been actively planning on killing myself at any point but nevertheless the word carried few if any negative connotations for me.

2: Should attempted(but failed) suicide have legal consequences? Is there any logic in being charged with the crime of 'attempted murder of yourself?' Is attempting suicide a right, as it is your life and your body?

Well I would prefer it didn't but the world is rather impersonal these days so I suppose I have to say suicide has to. I would never argue that someone deserves to be punished but even if I don't look down on people for killing themselves I do think we should try to help them. Even though after a failed suicide attempt most people don't attempt it again they still need help improving their mental state in whatever way is possible. I would even say giving those who attempted suicide some legal ramifications might even make it easier for someone to take some time off of work without being fired since they'll be in someone else's care for a short time afterwords. I wouldn't really know what to do with them though, I guess a mental hospital for a week or two.

3: Do you think suicide could possibly be considered a 'sound of mind, conscious' choice(Barring situations where suicide is an alternative to 'worse' fates i.e. 9/11 jumpers, and forced suicide i.e. Irwin Rommel), or is the serious consideration of it a sign of lack of soundness of mind? Is it possible to be mentally healthy but also willing to end one's own life?

Most of them time people who attempt suicide are arguably and even obviously not of sound mind, which is why it's extremely important to help those who are discovered to wish to do it. I can't be bothered to look up statistics for this but most people who attempt suicide don't become repeat offenders. It's sort of a crazy choice they make in a moment of high distress that would soon abolish itself if they just waited it out. There are those however who do repeatedly attempt suicide until they die through their own means or due to something else. It's hard to say though whether any of those people are in a sound condition. The majority of them might be insane, depending on what you consider to count as insanity. Basically it doesn't sound all that impossible but iI can't think of a situation where someone who is totally sane would kill themselves. It seems that you either have a mental disorder, you've gone momentarily insane (you're not currently being as rational as you normally are) or you're trying to escape a worst fate.

Well maybe self-sacrifice, dying so that something else may live on. I don't know if that counts though. There's also ritualized suicide. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

4: Presuming that an individual, having made arrangements to minimize the financial consequences of their death on others, with no dependents to suffer directly from the loss, commits suicide, would you find any reason why they should be criticized, if it was their choice and had no affect on you or direct consequences on others?

Of course I wouldn't be happy that something brought this person to suicide but there's no reason they should be criticized for it. I suppose suicide can be seen as a poor long-term choice in many cases but it's ridiculous to call someone a cowards or selfish for doing this.

5: Does anyone have any business criticizing or pitying someone for their lack of value for their life? Can it be argued that a preference to live over dying is universal, or subjective and depending on the individual? If someone simply does not want to live, and is in some way found to be without disorder such as depression, do they have a right to end their life, or should they be denied this option and undergo rehabilitation? Does being born into this life obligate you to live it to natural* death?

Criticizing individuals for attempting suicide probably stems from our own issues with death and the loss of existence. I can't imagine someone with a totally healthy outlook on life taking issue with those who prefer not to deal with it any longer.

A preference to live over die is not universal, it's more like a trait that should exist in everybody. Sometimes this trait is diminished from birth and sometimes it's diminished from the process of experience. For most people it's a natural instinct so suicide means overcoming what everything else is screaming at you to do.

6: If one primary reason for any criticism is the emotional loss inflicted on family**, what if there was no family connection to be harmed?

I guess I don't need to answer this, but it's fine. Even if someone's death has an emotional affect on loved-ones it's a question of whose selfishness is more important? Some might say the survivors but if the person lived they'd be a survivor possibly in a constant state of despair so it's not fair just to rule out what their quality of life would have been like just because they died. Don't get me wrong, it's more than reasonable and fair to try to convince someone not to do it and to help them but they're not a bad person for wanting to do it nor for maybe going through with it.

The only time you can really criticize someone for attempting suicide if they succeed is if you'd be willing to do it to their face had they failed.