SOPA, Americans, rest of the world how concerned are you?

[Prolescum]

Re: SOPA, Americans, rest of the world how concerned are you

Not going to disagree with you. online content on demand seems to be the way things will go. However, just because you agree with something generally - online information transfer systems, say - doesn't mean you have to support every single example of what you agree with. You shouldn't make excuses for Megaupload because you think you're both on the same side of a particular issue.

I'm not making excuses for them, simply pointing out that there are legitimate uses for those types of sites and I'm just not going to judge these chaps until all the facts are laid out. We've only heard a part of one side of the story.

As for Hong Kong and safe harbour: 1) they had servers in the US and thus were subject to US law and 2) staff had certain and specific knowledge of illegal activity, and actively participated in it.

Allegedly. I once worked for a large company, and was asked by my superior to do something that broke the law. No one above her pay grade was aware of it, but her direct subordinates were. I, of course, refused on principle, but the point is that just because some employees take the piss, it doesn't necessarily follow that the entire organisation is corrupt. I concede it does look pretty damning, though.

The reason I pointed out those issues was because you said the case of Megaupload is very much lacking in nuance. I'll be honest, I didn't expect you to take the American government at its word... :lol:

This eliminates any legal protections they might have and makes them subject to arrest and extradition to the US. If you had looked into the recommended links of the story you linked, you would have seen this:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2012/01/why-the-feds-smashed-megaupload.ars

I read that story when it was published (Twitter: the new RSS).

Did you happen to notice phrases like But the government asserts and the "abuse tool" allegedly does not remove the actual file or the government contends that everything about the site has been doctored, employees apparently knew and Employees even allegedly uploaded content themselves, when you read it?

They're certainly there

I could make a joke about nuance, but it's probably not very funny.

 

[ArthurWilborn]

Re: SOPA, Americans, rest of the world how concerned are you

Sure, there's nuance and doubt - if you ignore the blindingly obvious. I've talked to plenty of people about how Megaupload worked from the end user perspective. It was intensely obvious from the way they operated that their operations were shady and designed to defeat law enforcement efforts. Unless you argue that the people at the top had no idea of the basic overarching concepts of how their business operated - which has certainly been attempted before - then it's absurd to say they had no knowledge or complicity in illegal activity.

As for phrases of uncertainty and doubt; I'm not a judge or a newspaper. I'm perfectly open to operate on a civil trial standard of evidence (more likely then not) and make declarations based on that. It's possible that some of the people in the company were in fact innocent - but that claim can not be made generally of the company. If you actually have evidence to show, please do. Until you do, you're making an appeal to ignorance in the face of the available evidence, which predominantly points to guilt.

 

[Prolescum]

Re: SOPA, Americans, rest of the world how concerned are you

Sure, there's nuance and doubt - if you ignore the blindingly obvious. I've talked to plenty of people about how Megaupload worked from the end user perspective. It was intensely obvious from the way they operated that their operations were shady and designed to defeat law enforcement efforts. Unless you argue that the people at the top had no idea of the basic overarching concepts of how their business operated - which has certainly been attempted before - then it's absurd to say they had no knowledge or complicity in illegal activity.

Well, I didn't say they had no knowledge, at the top or otherwise, but like YouTube (Google also know their service is used for some of the same purposes by its users), they have a take-down tool for the rights holders to use at their leisure and therefore qualify for safe harbour. We are told by whomever that this tool was allegedly ineffective, but the case is pending so we cannot say whether that is true or not. You can say how intensely obvious it is until you're blue in the face, allegations and assertions are just that.

As for phrases of uncertainty and doubt; I'm not a judge or a newspaper. I'm perfectly open to operate on a civil trial standard of evidence (more likely then not) and make declarations based on that.

No evidence has, as yet, been presented; wishing allegations held weight doesn't automatically imbue them with that particular property.

It's possible that some of the people in the company were in fact innocent - but that claim can not be made generally of the company.

And YouTube? How about Dropbox?

If you actually have evidence to show, please do.

You're the one who believes there is evidence (beyond personal anecdote) enough to make a conclusion, you produce it :lol:

Until you do, you're making an appeal to ignorance in the face of the available evidence, which predominantly points to guilt.

I already conceded that it looked damning, however, I don't agree it's as cut and dry as you seem to think.

 

[ArthurWilborn]

Re: SOPA, Americans, rest of the world how concerned are you

So, what? You're claiming the internal emails in the article (which I presume you read) were fabricated? Because they are evidence which directly contradicts your assertions.

 

[Prolescum]

Re: SOPA, Americans, rest of the world how concerned are you

So, what? You're claiming the internal emails in the article (which I presume you read) were fabricated?

What the fuck? No, the emails aren't actually available from the article; there is only reporting on their contents, and as I've said repeatedly, contentions, assertions, and allegations are just that. Why are you having difficulty accepting this?

Because they are evidence which directly contradicts your assertions.

Which fucking assertions? Which part of I'm not prepared to make a call on a legal case before it even begins are you struggling with?

Here, I'll quote myself:

I'm not making excuses for them, simply pointing out that there are legitimate uses for those types of sites and I'm just not going to judge these chaps until all the facts are laid out. We've only heard a part of one side of the story.

You're the one with the pitchfork in hand, marching up to the hill to the castle with but a sliver of information. Be careful sunshine, it is a narrow ledge.

Honestly, I'm bored of this particular branch of the topic, and if you want to dance around in circles, we'll arrange a beano or something.

 

[ArthurWilborn]

Re: SOPA, Americans, rest of the world how concerned are you

Megavideo is not Nelson Mandela or Rubin Carter, or even Arthur Anderson (who were at least to some extent made a scapegoat). The evidence all overwhelmingly points in exactly one direction. There will be no miracles and no sainthoods out of this. It's all well and good to be skeptical and reserve judgement, but doing so here just makes you look like you're trying to defend the indefensible. The emails are not Climategate, because they are entirely consistent with what was obvious to an end user about the nature and practices of the company. Any evidence against them should be considered accurate, because it is absurd to believe that anyone would need or want to manufacture false evidence. And even, by some odd circumstance, the emails WERE manufactured, then that essentially would not matter since the guilt of Megavideo as a corporate entity is so blindingly obvious from their own methods and practices. You're being skeptical that the sun exists on a cloudy day here.

 

[nemesiss]

Re: SOPA, Americans, rest of the world how concerned are you

You're being skeptical that the sun exists on a cloudy day here.

bad analogy. Day implies the sun is shining. also, the sun also exists when its night.

I don't think we are being gullible in believing that there isn't copyrighted material on megavideo and that the guys who own megavideo didn't knew it was happening.
i think they looked away when people uploaded it, simply because it would ensure (more) revenue.

- should megavideo taken more effort in getting rid of copyrighted material on their servers? perhaps. but then again, as google and youtube said.. it would be (near) impossible to police their users and the amount of files that aer uploaded.
- should the media companies do more effort to point out the wrong links? yes
- will this also hurt those specific media companies who would remove those material? definitely yes! fanbases wouldn't have grown if it weren't for shared files.
i know dozens of books/movies/series/music that i would have never bought if it wasn't for the internet so that i could have a peak at it.
- should a goverment be responsible for copyrighted material? NO!

an interesting side-effect is that other file-sharing sites are now shutting down and/or limiting their functions.
why? because they do not want their servers to be raided and be criminalized for what their clients did.

 

[SirYeen]

Re: SOPA, Americans, rest of the world how concerned are you

BTW is it even certain that piracy is causing revenuedrops ? If so is it always like that, are there exceptions and when are those exceptions ? I mean I'm not even convinced that piracy always is a bad thing. Although I would say it almost should be for games and stuff like that I really don't know when it comes to music. Can somebody explain why they assume this ? Or is the market just changing and are they shoving the blame on piracy ?

@Nemesiss I share your experience when it comes to buying stuff you know thanks to piracy. The only thing that doesn't really fall under this category is books. Those I just buy based on amazon reviews,interests and stuff like that. Only have bought few CD's that I hadn't listened to before though. Same with DVD's, although one could argue I know at least some of those thanks to advertisement , sites like rotten tomatoes and movie theaters.

 

[ArthurWilborn]

Re: SOPA, Americans, rest of the world how concerned are you

You're being skeptical that the sun exists on a cloudy day here.

bad analogy. Day implies the sun is shining. also, the sun also exists when its night.

That's exactly my analogy, that it's absurd to be doubtful in some circumstances.

I don't think we are being gullible in believing that there isn't copyrighted material on megavideo and that the guys who own megavideo didn't knew it was happening.
i think they looked away when people uploaded it, simply because it would ensure (more) revenue.

No - they actively encouraged the behavior and engaged in it themselves. Their role was not just passive.

- should megavideo taken more effort in getting rid of copyrighted material on their servers? perhaps. but then again, as google and youtube said.. it would be (near) impossible to police their users and the amount of files that aer uploaded.

They took deliberate steps to avoid complying with the law and taking things down.

- should the media companies do more effort to point out the wrong links? yes

Megavideo only allowed companies a limited number of takedown requests, which they made sure was only a fraction of what was put up.

- will this also hurt those specific media companies who would remove those material? definitely yes! fanbases wouldn't have grown if it weren't for shared files.

This can be argued, but that's not the position of the companies who own the rights. It is immoral to take something that is not yours and profit from it against the will of the entity that owns it. Sure, a lot more money was made from land taken from natives by more scientifically advanced nations (arguably even by the natives themselves, indirectly) but it is still immoral.

- should a goverment be responsible for copyrighted material? NO!

Government should absolutely be responsible when there's a dispute over rights - and this is coming from someone who doesn't much like government.

an interesting side-effect is that other file-sharing sites are now shutting down and/or limiting their functions.
why? because they do not want their servers to be raided and be criminalized for what their clients did.

They're taking actions to be compliant with the law, which is good.

BTW is it even certain that piracy is causing revenuedrops ?

The theory is that a pirated copy is a lost sale. This is, of course, far too simplistic, but there's certainly an amount of truth to it that varies depending on what exactly was pirated. There's no question that pirating is causing some amount of lost sales.

 

[nemesiss]

Re: SOPA, Americans, rest of the world how concerned are you

@Nemesiss I share your experience when it comes to buying stuff you know thanks to piracy. The only thing that doesn't really fall under this category is books. Those I just buy based on amazon reviews,interests and stuff like that. Only have bought few CD's that I hadn't listened to before though. Same with DVD's, although one could argue I know at least some of those thanks to advertisement , sites like rotten tomatoes and movie theaters.

Audiobooks, comics and PDF versions of a book.

got a pretty funny story behind one:
downloaded the audiobook of the god delusion. liked it enough that i decided to buy it at a book store.
went to a bookstore, couldn't find it, asked the clerc if they had the book in stock.
clerc was dunbfounded... few moments later, noticed it was a religous (christian) bookstore.
went to another bookstore, where i bought it.

 

[Prolescum]

Re: SOPA, Americans, rest of the world how concerned are you

Megavideo is not Nelson Mandela or Rubin Carter, or even Arthur Anderson (who were at least to some extent made a scapegoat). The evidence all overwhelmingly points in exactly one direction. There will be no miracles and no sainthoods out of this.

:lol:

Please try not to be so transparently dense. You know what a strawman is.

It's all well and good to be skeptical and reserve judgement, but doing so here just makes you look like you're trying to defend the indefensible.

Like I've said throughout our little exchange, I'm not defending the indefensible. I even conceded how bad it looked. What are you, functionally illiterate? Oh wait, that's your loving description of me...

The emails are not Climategate, because they are entirely consistent with what was obvious to an end user about the nature and practices of the company. Any evidence against them should be considered accurate, because it is absurd to believe that anyone would need or want to manufacture false evidence.

No one said anything about manufacturing emails. That's twice you've suggested I have. I said we have only reports on the contents of the emails. I know you really struggle with anything that isn't black, white, or includes the word than, but you really have to pull your socks up.

And even, by some odd circumstance, the emails WERE manufactured, then that essentially would not matter since the guilt of Megavideo as a corporate entity is so blindingly obvious from their own methods and practices.

Yes mate, you take your invented version of my position and run with it... You'll trip and fall every step, but you'll learn eventually.

You're being skeptical that the sun exists on a cloudy day here.

Then then then, then then so then then then where you then then.

Oh and for those who want to have a sensible conversation,
http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/permalink/2011/111221airvinyl

I would expect this service to be part of their defense.

 

[nemesiss]

Re: SOPA, Americans, rest of the world how concerned are you

guess this guy was able to predict SOPA and PIPA, sortof

 

[ArthurWilborn]

Re: SOPA, Americans, rest of the world how concerned are you

Megavideo is not Nelson Mandela or Rubin Carter, or even Arthur Anderson (who were at least to some extent made a scapegoat). The evidence all overwhelmingly points in exactly one direction. There will be no miracles and no sainthoods out of this.

:lol:

Please try not to be so transparently dense. You know what a strawman is.

What's the strawman here? There's not going to be any sudden reversals showing they were secretly in the right all along and were falsely accused, which is what I was referencing. If there's no reason to doubt the outcome then there's no reason to reserve judgement.

It's all well and good to be skeptical and reserve judgement, but doing so here just makes you look like you're trying to defend the indefensible.

Like I've said throughout our little exchange, I'm not defending the indefensible. I even conceded how bad it looked. What are you, functionally illiterate? Oh wait, that's your loving description of me...

I didn't say you were, I said you looked like you were. Come on, we've both seen supporters giving out obvious hand-wringing for the indefensible before.

The emails are not Climategate, because they are entirely consistent with what was obvious to an end user about the nature and practices of the company. Any evidence against them should be considered accurate, because it is absurd to believe that anyone would need or want to manufacture false evidence.

No one said anything about manufacturing emails. That's twice you've suggested I have. I said we have only reports on the contents of the emails. I know you really struggle with anything that isn't black, white, or includes the word than, but you really have to pull your socks up.

So the emails are real and the reports are faked? I'm giving you this position because it's the only one consistent for you. If the emails are real and the reports of their contents accurate, then there would be no reason to reserve judgement since they demonstrate guilt so clearly. You'll no doubt say that you're just not sure either way, but that's a rather silly position to take since it relies on ignoring the obvious and inventing excuses for the transparent piracy that was going on (e.g. think of the tiny fraction of legitimate users!)

And even, by some odd circumstance, the emails WERE manufactured, then that essentially would not matter since the guilt of Megavideo as a corporate entity is so blindingly obvious from their own methods and practices.

Yes mate, you take your invented version of my position and run with it... You'll trip and fall every step, but you'll learn eventually.

Umm... that's my position, which you've provided exactly nothing to contradict beyond hand-waving and looking at the world with blinders on.

Oh and for those who want to have a sensible conversation,
http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/permalink/2011/111221airvinyl

I would expect this service to be part of their defense.

Oh, you. Pointing out that Richard Dawkins is an arrogant jerk who hates religion doesn't contradict what he says about evolution, just like evidence of an additional motive here is not evidence against the charges.

 

[Prolescum]

Re: SOPA, Americans, rest of the world how concerned are you

What's the strawman here?

You're claiming the internal emails in the article (which I presume you read) were fabricated?

What the fuck? No, the emails aren't actually available from the article

Note how specifically I put that sentence. You then go off on a pointless little fantasy rant where I did suggest they were fabricated...

Any evidence against them should be considered accurate, because it is absurd to believe that anyone would need or want to manufacture false evidence. And even, by some odd circumstance, the emails WERE manufactured, then that essentially would not matter

You even continue your silly premise in the post I'm responding to now by reversing the position I don't hold...

So the emails are real and the reports are faked?

I hope it was as much fun for you as it was for me.

There's not going to be any sudden reversals showing they were secretly in the right all along and were falsely accused, which is what I was referencing. If there's no reason to doubt the outcome then there's no reason to reserve judgement.

There is cause to doubt for the simple reason that the case has not come to court; we are not privy to the evidence.

I didn't say you were

But you continued to argue on the presumption that I was.

I said you looked like you were. Come on, we've both seen supporters giving out obvious hand-wringing for the indefensible before.

Again, I'm not supporting them. As pointed out earlier, I simply don't think it's as cut and dry as you do.

No one said anything about manufacturing emails. That's twice you've suggested I have. I said we have only reports on the contents of the emails. I know you really struggle with anything that isn't black, white, or includes the word than, but you really have to pull your socks up.

So the emails are real and the reports are faked?

What? Why is everything either one way or the other with you? I trust the journalists at The Guardian and Private Eye. Do they always report things accurately? Not by a fucking long shot.

I'm giving you this position because it's the only one consistent for you.

If your mind is as narrow as the evidence in this thread suggests, then you could say that about me. It wouldn't be accurate, but who cares about that? At least you're admitting projecting a view I don't hold now.

If the emails are real and the reports of their contents accurate, then there would be no reason to reserve judgement since they demonstrate guilt so clearly.

If? Ah, that lovely word... Glad you've finally learned its purpose.

You'll no doubt say that you're just not sure either way, but that's a rather silly position to take since it relies on ignoring the obvious and inventing excuses for the transparent piracy that was going on (e.g. think of the tiny fraction of legitimate users!)

We don't know what fraction of its users were legitimate. I use and create stuff for the FOSS community; almost all of my experience with Megauploads is entirely above board, and where it wasn't, it was a very grey area.

We can toss anecdotal evidence at each other if you like, but it really has no bearing on the case.

Oh and for those who want to have a sensible conversation,
http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/permalink/2011/111221airvinyl

I would expect this service to be part of their defense.

Oh, you. Pointing out that Richard Dawkins is an arrogant jerk who hates religion doesn't contradict what he says about evolution, just like evidence of an additional motive here is not evidence against the charges.

Yes, you're right. It's funny though.

 

[ArthurWilborn]

Re: SOPA, Americans, rest of the world how concerned are you

There's not going to be any sudden reversals showing they were secretly in the right all along and were falsely accused, which is what I was referencing. If there's no reason to doubt the outcome then there's no reason to reserve judgement.

There is cause to doubt for the simple reason that the case has not come to court; we are not privy to the evidence.

And if we were in the jury pool for this case, I would agree with you; but we're not. We are, in fact, privy to the evidence. We know of their business practices and we have reliable reports of their internal communication. This evidence exists, and is compelling, even without a court to put its sanction on it. To claim otherwise is to be willfully ignorant of reality.

So the emails are real and the reports are faked?

What? Why is everything either one way or the other with you? I trust the journalists at The Guardian and Private Eye. Do they always report things accurately? Not by a fucking long shot.

This material is not complex, technical, or otherwise ambiguous. Again, this is not Climategate. The issues are very straightforward and easily understood. "Shipping services for pirates" leaves very little to the imagination, and I challenge you to put the contents of the emails contained in the article into any framework except criminal guilt.

If the emails are real and the reports of their contents accurate, then there would be no reason to reserve judgement since they demonstrate guilt so clearly.

If? Ah, that lovely word... Glad you've finally learned its purpose.

I got 105% in Logic class. The only way for an If/Then statement to be false is if the "If" part is true and the "Then" part is false - which is not the case here, so the statement must be true. The only hope for you, then, is if one of the "If" parts is false - either the emails are not real, or the reports of their contents are not accurate. If they are both true, then the "Then" portion must also be true and there would be no reason to reserve judgement as you are currently doing. QED.

I'm sure you'll rail against this, but I'm also relatively certain that you're not going to bother to point out any actual problems outside of blanket statements about how I'm a big judgmental meany pants. :lol:

You'll no doubt say that you're just not sure either way, but that's a rather silly position to take since it relies on ignoring the obvious and inventing excuses for the transparent piracy that was going on (e.g. think of the tiny fraction of legitimate users!)

We don't know what fraction of its users were legitimate. I use and create stuff for the FOSS community; almost all of my experience with Megauploads is entirely above board, and where it wasn't, it was a very grey area.

Uh-huh. So you're just going to pretend the terabytes of pirated material just didn't exist, then? Oh, you stork, you.

 

[SirYeen]

Re: SOPA, Americans, rest of the world how concerned are you

I think prolescum has made it more then clear that no he's not pretending the pirated material doesn't exist. Based on your arguments I'd assume you do have the intellectual horsepower to get this and it's just arguing to argue at this point. However just in case, this post is not an endorsement of every post Prolescum made.

 

[ArthurWilborn]

Re: SOPA, Americans, rest of the world how concerned are you

I think prolescum has made it more then clear that no he's not pretending the pirated material doesn't exist. Based on your arguments I'd assume you do have the intellectual horsepower to get this and it's just arguing to argue at this point. However just in case, this post is not an endorsement of every post Prolescum made.

It's called rhetoric. I know I've made a ridiculous statement, but it's intentionally ridiculous in order to act as a counterweight to his pious statements about how his own experience was pure as driven snow (hey, look, more rhetoric!). A bit of satire, if you will.

 

[Prolescum]

Re: SOPA, Americans, rest of the world how concerned are you

As much as I love the tango, I prefer to bodypop.

My position is simple; the technology and the services (cloud storage, bittorrent et al) are useful - we didn't get rid of crowbars just because they can be used by criminals -, and the case against Megaupload is surrounded by lots of guff. I admitted that the case against them looks pretty damning, but I don't drop a principle (innocent until proven guilty) just because of appearances.

If Arthur can't accept that, well, he still has my respect. Just not as much of it.

 

[g0dh4x]

Re: SOPA, Americans, rest of the world how concerned are you

I don't like SOPA, PIPA or ACTA. But none of them scare me. No matter what any governments or corporations say, I will continue to do whatever the fuck I want to do. Whether legal or illegal. Anybody who has a problem with that can suck my dick.

 

[Prolescum]

Re: SOPA, Americans, rest of the world how concerned are you

Aww, I remember being twelve.