So, terrifying thing happened the other day...

[Unwardil]

My father bowed to an altar in church.

My father, confirmed atheist, never dragged me or my sister to church once in our entire lives that I can remember, bowed to an altar. I mean, I get it, he's friends with the minister, he goes curling with them and he sings in the church choir and that's all well and good. Curling (so I've had it asserted to me) is fun, singing is fun... But where does nodding in humble submission to the altar with the cross come into it. This wasn't during a service either, I could justify that as something you do because you're in the choir. I've been a paid singer in those things before, you do the motions and you say the words the same way an actor does on screen when they're playing a serial killer doing his "why I'm an evil bastard" monologue. You're just reciting poetry. Not GOOD poetry of course, but poetry all the same. (Incidentally, I was always an atheist but it took singing in a church choir for six months to develop a truly healthy loathing of religion.)

So I guess what I wonder is how many people are like my father, privately knowing that the whole thing is really a crock of shit but going along with it for the community and social aspect and just basically playing a (slightly) more grown up version of make believe? Because I know as a kid, I never once believed all the things I pretended, but I pretended anyways because it was fun to pretend things. I still find it fun, that's why I play video games and occasionally make stupid internet videos where I pretend to be a talking plush goat, the difference is my version of playing pretend doesn't end up in massive geo-political cluster fucks that cause untold thousands to be killed in brutal wars and Theocratic dictatorships.

 

[Master_Ghost_Knight]

It happens to me sometimes, when there are religiously tied celebrations that my semi-religious family attend or there is a funeral of some sort and I'm forced to attent church there are rituals doing the ceremony that everyone does at the same time and you stand out like you had neons if you don't do it and then everyone starts to starts at you and Imagine them thinking "why the fuck did he do that, he has no respect! he is like an evil satanist that is why" or "has he no respect for <whomever> even in the funeral service, is he such a bastard that he thinks <whomever> shouldn't go to heaven?". Remind you I still live an extremely religious country, altough I gradualy try to convince myself to just say fuck them and shock the old ladies, but I hate them looking at me sneering behind my back for such a trivial action. I could get a tan from their shear waves of hatered.

 

[Thomas Doubting]

Older generations were treated much differently when they would stand out and not submit to the massive brain washing rituals and religious gestures...
I don't want to pretend to believe in Santa for grown up people to be happy.. they can fuck themselves, respectfully. Some folks though.. might care too much what people think about them even when it comes to such things... and put cookies and milk on the table so they would think one is waiting for the bearded man too..
Don't let it bother you, shit happens, life goes on. As long as he doesn't expect you to say a prayer before dinner and go to the church to please his friends it's not really that bad :?:

 

[Unwardil]

I had a whole thing written here and it basically came down to the morals of telling a small lie to gloss the wheels of social interaction so I think I'll leave it at that.

It's conflicting though, cause I like my parents. They're good parents and as such, I wish them all the happiness in the world... But I really really loath Christianity and I can foresee the day when, to please their friends, I'll be subjected to increasing amounts of christian bullshit. It already happens occasionally and for those times I just have to bite my tongue and I do so hate biting my tongue but what I hate the most is being made to bite my tongue to spare the sentiments of fully grown adults that I don't even much care for.

 

[CommonEnlightenment]

I had a whole thing written here and it basically came down to the morals of telling a small lie to gloss the wheels of social interaction so I think I'll leave it at that.

It's conflicting though, cause I like my parents. They're good parents and as such, I wish them all the happiness in the world... But I really really loath Christianity and I can foresee the day when, to please their friends, I'll be subjected to increasing amounts of christian bullshit. It already happens occasionally and for those times I just have to bite my tongue and I do so hate biting my tongue but what I hate the most is being made to bite my tongue to spare the sentiments of fully grown adults that I don't even much care for.

Depending on your specific situation this is probably the best way to deal with this scenario. Some adults have a way of making your life a living hell if you don't follow their dogma. It's a sad situation and you would think that the adults would act more adult like, I've found that an inverse relationship between rationality and dogmatic belief typically exists (especially when some adults think that being louder somehow makes them win an argument). The chains of social pressure can be tough to break but stick to your guns and pick your battles wisely. Continue to plug away with reason and logic.

 

[Thomas Doubting]

Depending on your specific situation this is probably the best way to deal with this scenario. Some adults have a way of making your life a living hell if you don't follow their dogma. It's a sad situation and you would think that the adults would act more adult like, I've found that an inverse relationship between rationality and dogmatic belief typically exists (especially when some adults think that being louder somehow makes them win an argument). The chains of social pressure can be tough to break but stick to your guns and pick your battles wisely. Continue to plug away with reason and logic.

Damn that sounds familiar.. lucky for me, my sound apparatus is so far the loudest i know and i can make it sound irritating enough to annoy the shit even out of myself, while still trying to bring through actual arguments :mrgreen:

I had a whole thing written here and it basically came down to the morals of telling a small lie to gloss the wheels of social interaction so I think I'll leave it at that.

It's conflicting though, cause I like my parents. They're good parents and as such, I wish them all the happiness in the world... But I really really loath Christianity and I can foresee the day when, to please their friends, I'll be subjected to increasing amounts of christian bullshit. It already happens occasionally and for those times I just have to bite my tongue and I do so hate biting my tongue but what I hate the most is being made to bite my tongue to spare the sentiments of fully grown adults that I don't even much care for.

Could be worse, you could be the only atheist in your whole family (my brother is an agnostic who just doesn't talk about religion at all) and have to put up with all kinds of crap. Just a tiny example, few weeks ago my aunt asked me to pick up some "amulet" from her Imam for her headache.. (some writing on a paper that they hang around the neck and then chant some nonsense few times per day to make their imaginary friend heal their ouchies). I did that knowing that i would have to answer dozens of questions since i don't use the traditional greetings and "godly phrases" when i talk to "their holinesses".. but at least it gave me a chance to buy her some pain killers on the way lol.

I just do my thing as long as nobody bothers me but I will call them out on all the nonsense they are vomiting up or parroting from their ancient books, especially what they teach my little cousins.. they are free to believe in the magical curtain twitcher all they want but that is no reason to buy into moronic lies about the world.
My parents know it is best to avoid any religious topic when i am around, rest of my family tried to plant God into my head for a long time, but when they realized that i always turn it around and start spreading the seed of doubt instead, some of them started avoiding me and others only bring me in connection with their religion by praying for me :lol: (mixed marriage.. Allah and Yahweh both fight for my soul :?) few days before he died my (Muslim) grandpa said that Allah won't let him die before i get circumcised and submit to his imaginary friend.. that was over 15 years ago and some people still hate me for letting him die without me being a Muslim :shock:
At same time however, they recite their stupid book to tell me things like.. I can't believe anyway because Allah put coverings on my heart and my ears and a veil on my eyes so it is impossible to believe, he will send me to hell for some reason which is beyond my comprehension :facepalm:
Anyway, I have been hiding in my closet for long enough as a child and holding my piece where i should have spoken up.. if they have problems with my opinions and especially with my belief, they can stfu&gtfo.

I can only tell you that you are lucky enough for having parents who stick to reality even though they seem to be ashamed of it and hide it from others or something like that :|

 

[CommonEnlightenment]

I had a whole thing written here and it basically came down to the morals of telling a small lie to gloss the wheels of social interaction so I think I'll leave it at that.

It's conflicting though, cause I like my parents. They're good parents and as such, I wish them all the happiness in the world... But I really really loath Christianity and I can foresee the day when, to please their friends, I'll be subjected to increasing amounts of christian bullshit. It already happens occasionally and for those times I just have to bite my tongue and I do so hate biting my tongue but what I hate the most is being made to bite my tongue to spare the sentiments of fully grown adults that I don't even much care for.

Depending on your specific situation this is probably the best way to deal with this scenario. Some adults have a way of making your life a living hell if you don't follow their dogma. It's a sad situation and you would think that the adults would act more adult like, I've found that an inverse relationship between rationality and dogmatic belief typically exists (especially when some adults think that being louder or spreading rumors somehow makes them win an argument). The chains of social pressure can be tough to break but stick to your guns and pick your battles wisely. Continue to plug away with reason and logic.

 

[CommonEnlightenment]

Damn double post.....


Remember empathy beats religious dogma hands down. It may take a little longer to get to the truth but in the long run it's more objective and more humane.

Cheers....


Edit:

I just had another thought. When people keep on telling you that they are praying for you and it strikes a nerve, simply tell them that you wish one day that they could grasp reality as clear as you. It helps if you own a telescope.

 

[Andiferous]

Damn double post.....


Remember empathy beats religious dogma hands down. It may take a little longer to get to the truth but in the long run it's more objective and more humane.

Cheers....


Edit:

I just had another thought. When people keep on telling you that they are praying for you and it strikes a nerve, simply tell them that you wish one day that they could grasp reality as clear as you. It helps if you own a telescope.

Yup.

it's called culture vs. ethnocentrism. Consider seeing religion as another part of a person's background philosophy or culture, before dismissing it as irrational bunk. Given my own vantage point, all sorts of silly traditions seem ridiculous - okay; say something that looks like "cultural aspurgers' syndome" where one doesn't comprehend the meaning of cultural symbols or the correct response to such - insensitive for me to use the term, but probably the best descriptor I can find). If you don't really 'get' it you'll never really relate to its' meaning.

The empathy is part of trying to understand the unfamiliar or disapproved bit - namely religion.

 

[devilsadvocate]

Assburgers! Sorry, couldn't resist. The syndrome is obviously called "asperger's" not "aspurgers", mayhap unconscious slight because of the recent south park episode. :/

 

[Dean]

I think my own asperger's syndrome has the possibility of rearing its ugly head before long.

 

[nemesiss]

i think it has to with our human herd mentality, acting like sheep.
but one thing i do wonder, have you asked your father why he did that because it's sortof silly to ask us, instead of him to ask why he did it.
we can guess and speculate why, but he, ultimately, has the answer.
and perhaps it's wise to think about how to phrase the question first, to not seem like a jerk/idiot/etc..

perhaps he's thinking of joining the church?
who knows...

 

[MillionSword]

When in Rome...

Honestly I find it stranger that your dad sings in the choir than him bowing at the alter.

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

Meh.
It's not the end of the world, really.

Look at it - my parents would rather me be atheist than what I am. They are die-hard Southern Baptists with religious fundamentals that are unshaken by the very fabric of higher education themselves... But my dad is still rational to a point and my mother is, well, mumsy.
The key is not Fixing it more than it is a bit of Tolerance.

Your dad's a Christian now?
Oh no~ He's like a 1/3 of the world now!

Just kick back and relax. Your dad obviously has his reasons - and if he's the same somewhat-rational man as before, it's not about to go fuck-all because he picked up a faith to run by. All trying to jam your arm into his running brain will do is make you lose your arm and mess up his day royally. The key you need to do is not to be so worked up over things such as religion. It's not the end of the world, nor of rationality.

 

[Thomas Doubting]

From what i could understand it's not that his dad became a Christian but that he acts like one when he is around Christians.

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

From what i could understand it's not that his dad became a Christian but that he acts like one when he is around Christians.

Even then -

Man is a political creature.
Religion is a form of politics. My dad behaves more Christian-y when he's around other believers. He even goes to church on Sunday, despite his admitted and observed casualness in faith.
Why? Probably equilibrium with the whole for a few moments and feeling like part of the larger body of Christ before going home and working all week. Maybe it makes him feel better for a whole 2 hours of his week to do so?

It can't be the worst thing out there that people have done to make themselves feel more positive in the long-run. At the very least he's not shooting meth.

 

[Thomas Doubting]

I don't really care why they do it.. i can think of few reasons like blending in or not upsetting somebody.. maybe they like their friends so much that they play their game because they think they would lose them otherwise.. or get whatever problems with their family or job or friends, not my problem. As long as prople don't try to force their rituals and beliefs on me or people around me i won't bite.
On the other hand i can understand that Unwardil doesn't really like to see his own father behaving like that, in my opinion best would be to not take it too seriously but whether or not he can respect it or at least ignore it is up to him.

 

[Laurens]

I don't think its a big deal really.

Obviously I can't speak for your father, but if I was in a similar situation I could see myself going along with it just to avoid confrontation.

Bowing to an altar is utterly pointless in my opinion, but I'd rather do something pointless than piss off a whole load of people. That's just the way I am, I hate being confrontational. Perhaps your father sees it the same way?

The only way you can know his motivation is to talk with him...