So, if God will answer any prayer (in heaven)...

[Krazyskooter]

The bible says repeatedly that if you have faith then God will answer your prayers. We know this is not true, but how about in heaven? Wouldn't that be the ideal place to get a prayer answered? If so, and god will grant any request, what's stopping someone from just asking him to spare all the tormented souls in hell? I mean it seems like an obvious loophole that I've never seen addressed. Now this is ofcourse addressed to the Christians out there, however my fellow atheists are invited to help elaborate my point.

 

[masterjedijared]

The idea is still predicated on the concept of Heaven/Paradise/whatever. I would think that there should be a decent amount of evidence to establish a Heaven, that there's a deity of some sort there, that is actually could answer prayers and finally that it would care or be powerful enough to do so.

Also, I think that according to more thought out rationale once a soul gets to Heaven then the soul is so uncaring about the ills of the world and Hell that they wouldn't actually ask for this of the deity. Sort of a catch 22 if you will; once you can talk to the deity and ask it for shit, you don't want anything!

How convenient for their theology.

 

[monitoradiation]

I think that once you're in heaven you're supposed to be completely content with whatever god decrees. You'll never want to ask anything of god. Ever.

This is along the same vein as whether or not there's free will in heaven, since there's evil in the world because of man's free will.... and there's no evil in heaven.... There must not be free will in heaven.

 

[lrkun]

Assumptions:
a. God exists
b. Heaven exists
c. Hell exists
d. Prayers made in heaven are answered.

Well, we don't know if a-c exists really, but supposing the do. Here are a few guesses.
a. Maybe they do pray in heaven for those in hell, in effect we just don't know about it, because it is not something that one could perceive.
b. Maybe the people in heaven pray for those who are still living, because the one's in hell can never be forgiven.
c. Maybe the people in heaven don't pray, instead they are just having fun.
d. Maybe once a person is in heaven, he or she becomes a mindless fuck slave of he who should not be named
e. Maybe there are a set of rules in heaven and hell.
f. Maybe there is no heaven and hell, and we're just speculating things like this for mental masturbation.

 

[quantumfireball2099]

I think that once you're in heaven you're supposed to be completely content with whatever god decrees. You'll never want to ask anything of god. Ever.

This is along the same vein as whether or not there's free will in heaven, since there's evil in the world because of man's free will.... and there's no evil in heaven.... There must not be free will in heaven.

Well there must be free will in heaven, Satan's rebellion against God is proof of that. Which brings me to my speculation that if you give any being free will and then decide to be omniscient, you yourself create the lust for it. Therefor God -> Sin. And since God never changes...

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. -GOD

Anyhow, back to the topic...

I was always taught that when we got to heaven we would not be concerned with with those on earth. If we were, it would be very upsetting knowing we are in such a perfect place while our loved ones are stuck on earth, suffering day to day. Sounds live a lovely place to be, eh? :roll:

I am assuming for the moment, that all of my upbringing was not complete and utter crap.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

That's something I've always wondered at: how can Christians be good people when they celebrate the suffering of others?

I don't give a damn if you're talking about the suffering of Hitler or some "unsaved" random person, any Christian who can accept eternal torture for ANYONE is a terrible human being.

 

[quantumfireball2099]

That's something I've always wondered at: how can Christians be good people when they celebrate the suffering of others?

I don't give a damn if you're talking about the suffering of Hitler or some "unsaved" random person, any Christian who can accept eternal torture for ANYONE is a terrible human being.

I second that, though I think the problem is that most don't give it any thought. For instance, if Kirk Cameron were to sit down and watch someone being utterly tortured, I believe that they would have them stop. I think this would be the same for any sane human being. It's like the saying goes; "Out of sight, out of mind."

 

[Krazyskooter]

I was taught that the verse about wiping away all tears after the final judgement was when the saved would forget about the ones in hell (amnesia ftw!) but this doesn't happen until the very end. So until that time it would seem that heaven would be a very uncomfortable place.... Sorta like eating a big juicy steak and potatoes in front of a group of starving African kids. That's what led me to believe that people would remember the ones in hell.

Some Christians believe heaven will be like one big bug zapper, and once they see gods holy light they won't care about anything else...... God is T.V.???

 

[Mapp]

The bible says repeatedly that if you have faith then God will answer your prayers. We know this is not true, but how about in heaven? Wouldn't that be the ideal place to get a prayer answered? If so, and god will grant any request, what's stopping someone from just asking him to spare all the tormented souls in hell? I mean it seems like an obvious loophole that I've never seen addressed. Now this is ofcourse addressed to the Christians out there, however my fellow atheists are invited to help elaborate my point.

If heaven is a land where all tears are dried, all needs met and all joy fulfilled as so many Christians seem to believe why the hell would you pray in heaven (excuse the expression). Christians have struggled with this issue of how they can enjoy heaven when they know that others are suffering eternal torment, and there seems to be two basic answers:

1. Hell in the sense of eternal torment doesn't actually exist, it's either: a. annihilation of the spirit or b. a separation from God. Thus the punishment meets the crime, so to speak, and they don't have to feel bad.

2: God changes the person when they enter heaven so that they are incapable of feeling bad for those burning in hell because they've been exposed to God's version of justice.

Both answers seem reprehensible to me, though the second one is certainly worse.

 

[marielee]

The bible says repeatedly that if you have faith then God will answer your prayers. We know this is not true, but how about in heaven? Wouldn't that be the ideal place to get a prayer answered? If so, and god will grant any request, what's stopping someone from just asking him to spare all the tormented souls in hell? I mean it seems like an obvious loophole that I've never seen addressed. Now this is ofcourse addressed to the Christians out there, however my fellow atheists are invited to help elaborate my point.

1) Just want to point out scripture references in addressing unanswered prayer:

1 John 14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: 15And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

Please notice it says, "if we ask any thing according to His will." No matter what happens on this earth, and no matter if we don't understand it, God has a plan, and part of willfully submitting to Him is accepting His will and trusting Him, even if its unanswered prayer. Is it hard to willfully submit to Him at times? For sure!! lol Just as in any relationship.




2) In regard to prayer (in heaven), I haven't come across any verse(s) that refer to us even having to pray in heaven. There will be no more tears, and the "former things shall pass away"...

Revelation 21:3-5

3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5And He that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And He said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.


If there are no more tears or death or crying and the former things are passed away... then I'm guessing there is no more "flesh/body" as we know it... perhaps? How? I have no idea; but it's pretty amazing isn't it? It's as amazing as how He had Moses part the sea. It's as amazing as when Jesus turn the water into wine and heal and feed people. It's as amazing as His beautiful and interesting creation which (because of the fall of mankind and our sin towards God and evil toward one another) will be utterly destroyed in the end, and He will make all things new.

No more evil. There's a "happy ever after" for you!

 

[/b/artleby]

My favorite pass time:
Walk into a church, kneel, put your hands together, and say "Dear lord, please don't answer this prayer". Then stand up triumphant: you just killed God.

 

[marielee]

The bible says repeatedly that if you have faith then God will answer your prayers. We know this is not true, but how about in heaven? Wouldn't that be the ideal place to get a prayer answered? If so, and god will grant any request, what's stopping someone from just asking him to spare all the tormented souls in hell? I mean it seems like an obvious loophole that I've never seen addressed. Now this is ofcourse addressed to the Christians out there, however my fellow atheists are invited to help elaborate my point.

PS - as for asking Him to spare all the tormented souls in hell. Haha.. I find that amusing. Again, not trying to be belitting but that's the very reason Christians will witness to you!!! For you to know Jesus Christ and have an actual relationship with Him, repenting from not believing in Him and having a new life in Him. Have you ever thought that these people are coming as answered prayer for those who are praying??

Do you not think that God Himself would send you witnesses of HIS love and truth, especially being that we cannot "see" Him? He even says so in His Word.

You personally have to BELIEVE Him, trust in Him, grow in Him. No person can MAKE someone love God. Each person has to to have the "Revelation" of Jesus Christ and His love. It is the single most important relationship we all could ever have. And again, as from my other post - love is a choice. God isn't going to "make" you love Him just as He doesn't "make" us love others. And what happens if/when we don't love Him and believe in Him, doesn't negate His Righteous judgement and what He tells us what will happen (hell). To argue with God is to do the same thing Satan does - think he is better than God. When Satan was indeed created by the very Being he despises. The LORD already told us what to do and how to do it in the Bible. Can't make people believe it, can only witness it.

Now I'm sure there will be lots of arguments that God isnt love, or why doesn't He make it easier, why can't we see Him..yadda yadda (but yeah, we all have those questions at times) --- The reply to any of those I say is - Since He's GOD, doesn't He make the rules and show us what needs to be done to be with Him? Or rather, does the "clay" tell the "potter" what or how to do it??

 

[/b/artleby]

You personally have to BELIEVE Him, trust in Him, grow in Him. No person can MAKE someone love God. Each person has to to have the "Revelation" of Jesus Christ and His love. It is the single most important relationship we all could ever have. And again, as from my other post - love is a choice. God isn't going to "make" you love Him just as He doesn't "make" us love others. And what happens if/when we don't love Him and believe in Him, doesn't negate His Righteous judgement and what He tells us what will happen (hell). To argue with God is to do the same thing Satan does - think he is better than God. When Satan was indeed created by the very Being he despises. The LORD already told us what to do and how to do it in the Bible. Can't make people believe it, can only witness it.

Now I'm sure there will be lots of arguments that God isnt love, or why doesn't He make it easier, why can't we see Him..yadda yadda (but yeah, we all have those questions at times) --- The reply to any of those I say is - Since He's GOD, doesn't He make the rules and show us what needs to be done to be with Him? Or rather, does the "clay" tell the "potter" what or how to do it??

One question.
Will my dog Fluffy go to heaven? Because I'm not going to believe in a god who will send a cute little defenseless dog to hell, it just isn't right. I mean, doesn't God love Fluffy? How can God send him to hell?

 

[RichardMNixon]

No more evil. There's a "happy ever after" for you!

The fact that you could accept a "happy ever after" while 2/3rds of the world's population (at least) is suffering in eternal torment is one of my greatest problems with your religion and its flagrant self-righteousness. How could you be so heartless?

 

[/b/artleby]

No more evil. There's a "happy ever after" for you!

The fact that you could accept a "happy ever after" while 2/3rds of the world's population (at least) is suffering in eternal torment is one of my greatest problems with your religion and its flagrant self-righteousness. How could you be so heartless?

Wait, does this mean God is sending Fluffy to hell? Why God why? That's it, I refuse to believe in a God who is going to send a cute little Collie to hell. If Fluffy is going to be in hell then that is where I would much rather be. Suck it God.

 

[RichardMNixon]

Wait, does this mean God is sending Fluffy to hell? Why God why? That's it, I refuse to believe in a God who is going to send a cute little Collie to hell. If Fluffy is going to be in hell then that is where I would much rather be. Suck it God.

Satan already has a sharpened, barbed-wire spit with Fluffy's name on it. He'll be barbecued and slow roasted while eaten alive. Forever. In god's love and mercy.

 

[/b/artleby]

Wait, does this mean God is sending Fluffy to hell? Why God why? That's it, I refuse to believe in a God who is going to send a cute little Collie to hell. If Fluffy is going to be in hell then that is where I would much rather be. Suck it God.

Satan already has a sharpened, barbed-wire spit with Fluffy's name on it. He'll be barbecued and slow roasted while eaten alive. Forever. In god's love and mercy.

NOOOOOOOOOO

Marielee, how can you believe in this, this, monster!? Fluffy never hurt anyone! Just because he once had a little accident on the postman's shirt, that's no reason for him to be eternally sentenced to the fires of hell! He was just a puppy, and was sorry! He even offered the postman his favorite chew toy when he saw how much he upset him! Does that sound like a dog who should go to hell to you Marielee? I suggest you think good and hard about what your beliefs are, now if you excuse me, I have to go hug Fluffy and tell him that it's all going to be ok...

 

[marielee]

[

One question.
Will my dog Fluffy go to heaven? Because I'm not going to believe in a god who will send a cute little defenseless dog to hell, it just isn't right. I mean, doesn't God love Fluffy? How can God send him to hell?

I don't know. I hope so, I have a pet I adore myself. But then again, are animals capable of "sin" or doing evil?

 

[Anachronous Rex]

One question.
Will my dog Fluffy go to heaven? Because I'm not going to believe in a god who will send a cute little defenseless dog to hell, it just isn't right. I mean, doesn't God love Fluffy? How can God send him to hell?

I don't know. I hope so, I have a pet I adore myself. But then again, are animals capable of "sin" or doing evil?

Yes. Read Genesis.

 

[marielee]

The fact that you could accept a "happy ever after" while 2/3rds of the world's population (at least) is suffering in eternal torment is one of my greatest problems with your religion and its flagrant self-righteousness. How could you be so heartless?

Please kindly don't twist what I'm saying, thank you. I said it in a new paragraph, with two sentences, and I refering to "no more evil" and that being a happy ever after. (Not anyone going to hell)

On the contrary, I haved grieved and am very sorrowful for the possibilty of anyone going to hell