So,how about that Patriot Act

[ajh]

Yep,got extended....again....

That is all.....

 

[Case]

How about writing a decent original post to start a thread? You are leaving potential readers to guess what this is about.
If you want to write monosyllabic posts and post rageguy comics, there are other forums better suited for that.

 

[borrofburi]

How about writing a decent original post to start a thread? You are leaving potential readers to guess what this is about.
If you want to write monosyllabic posts and post rageguy comics, there are other forums better suited for that.

I understood it. After 9/11, the USA passed a horribly invasive law that greatly increased government power of spying on people and detaining people (iirc both citizens and non-citizens); that law was called the patriot act. Part of the reason it passed was that it is not allowed to stay on the books for very long, so every so often it has to be extended, or, finally, rejected. ajh was simply pointing out that it's been extended yet again (when it could have been rejected), and that he is very displeased (as I think most people on this forum will also react).

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

How about writing a decent original post to start a thread? You are leaving potential readers to guess what this is about.
If you want to write monosyllabic posts and post rageguy comics, there are other forums better suited for that.

I understood it. After 9/11, the USA passed a horribly invasive law that greatly increased government power of spying on people and detaining people (iirc both citizens and non-citizens); that law was called the patriot act. Part of the reason it passed was that it is not allowed to stay on the books for very long, so every so often it has to be extended, or, finally, rejected. ajh was simply pointing out that it's been extended yet again (when it could have been rejected), and that he is very displeased (as I think most people on this forum will also react).

Half of my job is information -
and I am pissed about it. >.>

This law has many advantageous principles used to subdue criminals, yes. But it's one of those instances where the United States is simply cutting off it's own legs in order to not stub their toe. Under principles of the act, a federal agent could detain you for indefinite amount of time for the purposes of interrogation as a vital witness in a criminal investigation (aka forever) without judge nor jury able to voice an opinion.

It kinda brings up a solid feeling of guilt within me.

:|

The Patriot Act is Best for America - in terms of security and safety. However, it is not RIGHT.
If given the choice, I will always choose what is Right over what is Best.

What is BEST is an absolute dictatorship, with no books and restrained thought control.
What is RIGHT is a democratic republic, where people can be free to express thoughts, opinions, views, and do business outside of the threat of government interference.

What is BEST is for the people to fear their government.
What is RIGHT is for the government to fear it's people.

 

[Nemesiah]

Half of my job is information -
and I am pissed about it. >.>

This law has many advantageous principles used to subdue criminals, yes. But it's one of those instances where the United States is simply cutting off it's own legs in order to not stub their toe. Under principles of the act, a federal agent could detain you for indefinite amount of time for the purposes of interrogation as a vital witness in a criminal investigation (aka forever) without judge nor jury able to voice an opinion.

It kinda brings up a solid feeling of guilt within me.

:|

The Patriot Act is Best for America - in terms of security and safety. However, it is not RIGHT.
If given the choice, I will always choose what is Right over what is Best.

What is BEST is an absolute dictatorship, with no books and restrained thought control.
What is RIGHT is a democratic republic, where people can be free to express thoughts, opinions, views, and do business outside of the threat of government interference.

What is BEST is for the people to fear their government.
What is RIGHT is for the government to fear it's people.

The Patriot Act is Best for America - in terms of security and safety. However, it is not RIGHT.

I know nothing about this law and have heard very little, however as I understood it, it gave the US government powers over the rights of it's citizens, powers that superceed some of the hard earned freedoms of the american people (sucha as having their phone and electronic conversations policed, etc..)

My question is: Is it actually BEST in terms of security and safety?

I ask this because while americans may be better protected from the terrorists (whomever and wherever they might be) they are actualy much worse protectted from their government, so to me it sounds like the americans are actually in greater danger, it may be that less americans are in danger but those that are in danger are in much greater danger.

Any way, thats what I understand, I have not studied any of this so its all conjecture, any input on the matter is apprecaited.

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

My question is: Is it actually BEST in terms of security and safety?

Yes - it is probably the best-shot coverall for tracking down criminals, enemies of the state, and other nasty federal offenses. However it is used in conjunction with a system where it is basically hyped-up racial and social profiling.

I ~know~ I'm being watched because I have access to information. I got in trouble for breaking one of their black-box and rod motherfuckers under my car after I had returned home from leave in Europe. >.> I was considering strapping it to a taxi, but I thought that it would be much better for me to just bust it to pieces. They demanded to know why I had "destroyed Federal property" - I demanded to know why they were trespassing, tampering with my vehicle, and when I informed my Chain of Command, asses were chewed and (I cannot say for sure, but do believe that) heads were rolled. After it, I bothered to ask one of my friends who works in RADIO to check my shit out for bugs, and he couldn't find any.
But, then again I am the kind of guy that bothers to check his car after being away from it for long periods of time, calls my bank up personally whenever I get payed to do a change-check of my bank account, has bothered to utilize an encryption for my phone, and demands whenever someone asks my Social Security number that I do everything short of kicking their teeth in to demand to know why they require such information.

You are the sum of all information gathered about you. I am a very secure person.

The relevance my little story to the topic is this:
The government is about as secure as secure can try to manage about it's information - especially after the heyday with WikiLeaks. It wants to keep everyone within it's boarders safe both information-wise and action-wise. The problem is that it's a "trust me that we're doing the right thing" kind of deal, where I would happily allow you that benefit for SOME things ... But not ALL things. And certainly not for "PROBABLY" situations.
Me coming back from leave in Europe? The fuck were they expecting on this side anyhow?
Bin Laden's cellphone? Sure. Go right the fuck ahead. No argument here.

Oh well - it's been extended. I just have to continue being shifty and nifty as I always am.

I want what is RIGHT to be done over what is BEST.

 

[Nemesiah]

I don't know if this is related to the patriot act, BUT it does include some of what I'm saying, you guys talk so much about and have fought so much for your freedom that when stuff like this happens, it makes me wonder if you shouldn't be better taking the teeth out of your government instead of giving it more.



It seems to me that this guys were being inflamatory on porpouse, with the "disobey" t-shirt and the guy with the mega camera (speculating here), however I have seen a couple of other videos where the us police seems to be violating citizen's liberties more and more often.

If anyone here know anithying else about this video please share.

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

mfw they were being disruptive, annoying shitheads before the cameras were cut on.

:facepalm:

Nemesiah - they were being dickwads, jumping around, making noise, and intentionally causing a disturbance at a memorial, trying to draw enough attention to themselves to get arrested. Trolling the cops IRL by causing a massive disturbance (disrupting the peace) is not protected by free speech - because your right to be annoying ends where my right to peacefully walk through a memorial begins.

 

[borrofburi]

because your right to be annoying ends where my right to peacefully walk through a memorial begins.

Your right to be annoying ends where my right to peacefully attend a political convention ends (seriously, they have free speech zones where you can be annoying if you really want).

 

[Case]

mfw they were being disruptive, annoying shitheads before the cameras were cut on.

:facepalm:

Nemesiah - they were being dickwads, jumping around, making noise, and intentionally causing a disturbance at a memorial, trying to draw enough attention to themselves to get arrested. Trolling the cops IRL by causing a massive disturbance (disrupting the peace) is not protected by free speech - because your right to be annoying ends where my right to peacefully walk through a memorial begins.

And aside from the childish allegations... what's your evidence for those claims (not underscoring disturbance, because that is a very subjective term - some people disturb me just because they're stupid, that doesn't mean it would hold up in court as 'disturbance')?

 

[australopithecus]

How about writing a decent original post to start a thread? You are leaving potential readers to guess what this is about.
If you want to write monosyllabic posts and post rageguy comics, there are other forums better suited for that.

You aren't a moderator, and acting like one isn't cool.

http://www.leagueofreason.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

And aside from the childish allegations... what's your evidence for those claims (not underscoring disturbance, because that is a very subjective term - some people disturb me just because they're stupid, that doesn't mean it would hold up in court as 'disturbance')?

If you had children -
Could I follow them to and from school, shouting in their ears about how their parent is guaranteeing that my free speech isn't subjective to their peace and quiet?

Can I go into a public theater and shout "FIRE! THERE'S A FIRE!" as part of my freedom of speech? I mean, DISTURBANCE and ANNOYANCE is all subjective, right? To accuse me of trolling IRL is childish when you can clearly see on camera is me getting arrested outside of a theater, disregarding any ideas as to the actual reasons that led them to handcuffing me in the first place.

-----------------------------

My Social Studies Teacher put it in the best perspective with this quote:
"This is America. Land of the free. You are free to move about as you please, and flail your arms insufferably around like an idiot. No one in this country can arrest you for doing that. However, your right to swing your arms like a maniac does not mean that you have the right to knock my teeth out and break my nose.
Your right to swing your arm ends where my face begins."

Welcome to America.

 

[havanacat]

The Patriot Act....is actually keeping the UK safe, just like US., believe it, or not. Do you know how many "homegrowns" were caught under this? Fort Dix is just one example, there are many more.

 

[Duvelthehobbit666]

The Patriot Act....is actually keeping the UK safe, just like US., believe it, or not. Do you know how many "homegrowns" were caught under this? Fort Dix is just one example, there are many more.

But it is restricting people's freedom and that is the issue here. Government doesn't have the right to poke its faces in the private life of their citizens unless it is clear that the citizens are doing something wrong. Poking their faces in citizens lives before there is evidence there is something terribly wrong should not be allowed.

 

[australopithecus]

The Patriot Act....is actually keeping the UK safe, just like US., believe it, or not. Do you know how many "homegrowns" were caught under this?

Evidence plz. Specifically regarding how it's keeping the UK safe.

 

[Prolescum]

The Patriot Act....is actually keeping the UK safe, just like US., believe it, or not.

:lol: I'd also like evidentiary support for this claim.

[centre][/centre]

Do you know how many "homegrowns" were caught under this?

Enlighten me. Facts only, if you will.

Fort Dix is just one example, there are many more.

I'd like the entire list, please. Remember, only those directly attributable to your Patriot Act.

 

[RichardMNixon]

The Patriot Act....is actually keeping the UK safe, just like US., believe it, or not. Do you know how many "homegrowns" were caught under this? Fort Dix is just one example, there are many more.

The attack on Fort Dix was exposed by an undercorver FBI informant and an attentive clerk at Circuit City, not by Patriot-Act style indefinite detention of "witnesses."

Salon had an interesting point in a recent article that E. coli kills more people per year than terror attacks.

Terror attacks are bad, sure, but in the grand scheme of things we're spending billions of dollars and destroying the freedoms that we're so proud of to prevent something just above shark attack on the threat-o-meter. Where's the billions of dollars to ensure our food is safe? Oh right, being overwhelmingly opposed by the Republican party.

 

[aeritano]

The Patriot Act....is actually keeping the UK safe, just like US., believe it, or not. Do you know how many "homegrowns" were caught under this? Fort Dix is just one example, there are many more.

To quote Thomas Jefferson.. one of the founding fathers of America and a real patriot.

"Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."

Its time Americans looked back to what America was about.. i always love how people co-op the founding fathers in their political stances, when they are blatantly opposite of what the founding fathers wanted.. but that's asking too much from the dullard population and mindless drooling drones the vast majority of Americans have become.