Should The Pledge Be Mandatory?

[The Felonius Pope]

My town recently had a controversy dealing with the Pledge of Allegiance. A teacher (and many of his students) refused to stand and that ruffled the feathers of some of the more conservative people.

I've discussed the issue with my family members, my neighbors, and anyone willing to chat in the cafe. Quite a few of them believe the Pledge of Allegiance should be mandatory for children in public schools. I've stated my opinion (that the Pledge should not be mandatory) and have even been called been called a 'commie' by some of the teabaggers.

What do you guys think? Should the Pledge be mandatory? Should the words 'under God' be removed?

 

[Duvelthehobbit666]

As long as the words "under God" are in the pledge, making it mandatory is illegal (if it is in a public school). If people want to say it, they are allowed to. However, I am against it being mandatory. It is possible not all people want to say a pledge about the USA and forcing them to do so is not making life easier for them. By having it non mandatory, you give a choice and that is in my opinion better.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I love the easy questions.

The answer is NO.

More importantly, what's the point? Since sincerity cannot possibly be confirmed or enforced, what is the purpose of compelling a loyalty oath?

 

[Nom_de_Plume]

I thought the "under god" was added later (wow my dyslexia totally reads that as under dog)
um lemme see if I can find a link, but I thought the original didn't have that under god part

 

[nudger1964]

i might just be a jolly foreigner...but seems to me, being compelled to make a pledge to a country is far more "commie like" than being given the choice.
Id never do it myself as a matter of principle.

 

[Nom_de_Plume]

Ok found this....
http://restorethepledge.org/
http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_pled1.htm
apparently the god part was added in 54?

 

[Nom_de_Plume]

i might just be a jolly foreigner...but seems to me, being compelled to make a pledge to a country is far more "commie like" than being given the choice.
Id never do it myself as a matter of principle.

Agree, I'm pretty sure canada doesn't have anything like it.
All we have is our anthem in either of our official languages(sometimes both official languages all mashed together which I've always found odd)
but the anthem has god in it
*edit to add cuz I got interrupted by the phone
I sing Lets, instead of god. (My Dad started singing it that way when I was a kid)
So instead of "god keep our land, glorious and free"
we sing Let's keep our land, glorious and free instead, no one beside me has ever said a word.

 

[The Felonius Pope]

I love the easy questions.

The answer is NO.

More importantly, what's the point? Since sincerity cannot possibly be confirmed or enforced, what is the purpose of compelling a loyalty oath?

The people I talked to told me that we need to instill patriotism in children at a young age. Don't get me wrong, I come from a military family, but forcing children to mindlessly recite a pledge that they are too young to understand sounds a bit like brainwashing to me.

 

[Your Funny Uncle]

Why exactly is blind patriotism a good thing? If you love your country there should be a good reason for it beyond being forced to recite a few words.

 

[CommonEnlightenment]

i might just be a jolly foreigner...but seems to me, being compelled to make a pledge to a country is far more "commie like" than being given the choice.
Id never do it myself as a matter of principle.

Actually,

I think the correct terms would be Totalitarian or Authoritarian. As I could envision a Communist state that could have more rights than we do in the United States. This is not an endorsement of Communism either. Just wanted to make that point clear as I have found that far too many people use the false dichotomy fallacy. Or to put it a little less formally, the problem could be seen as a "You are either with us or against us" mentality that is just plainly absurd.

To answer the question.....

It should not be mandatory either with or without the words 'Under God' in the pledge as it limits choice and could be seen as a violation of free speech. Yes, I think the act of being silent is actually a form of expression that should also be covered under the first amendment.

 

[The Felonius Pope]

I sing Lets, instead of god. (My Dad started singing it that way when I was a kid)
So instead of "god keep our land, glorious and free"
we sing Let's keep our land, glorious and free instead, no one beside me has ever said a word.

That's sort of what I did. Instead of saying 'one nation under God' like all the other kids, I would say the original pledge.
I also wouldn't pray during the moment of silence.

Why exactly is blind patriotism a good thing? If you love your country there should be a good reason for it beyond being forced to recite a few words.

I guess unquestioning patriotism is a virtue for some people . I know quite a few people in my neighborhood who have that mentality...

 

[ImprobableJoe]

The people I talked to told me that we need to instill patriotism in children at a young age. Don't get me wrong, I come from a military family, but forcing children to mindlessly recite a pledge that they are too young to understand sounds a bit like brainwashing to me.

That's part of what I was saying... how sincere is it to have children recite by rote something that they are too young to understand? I've even seen funny videos of children reciting the fucking thing without their peers, and they are just saying a phonetic approximation of the actual words in question. They not only don't understand the words, they don't even actually know what the words are!

Of course, the people pushing for this are mostly fucking idiot traitors anyways, so that's another strike against it.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Why exactly is blind patriotism a good thing? If you love your country there should be a good reason for it beyond being forced to recite a few words.

And if there's no good reason, some catchy words don't matter.

 

[The Felonius Pope]

Of course, the people pushing for this are mostly fucking idiot traitors anyways, so that's another strike against it.

Its ironic that you say that, considering that I have (essentially) been called a traitor for standing up against these people.
I guess that's how it works, though. You question the establishment, whether it be religion or government, and someone
is bound to get pissed.

 

[CommonEnlightenment]

Dang Nambit

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Its ironic that you say that, considering that I have (essentially) been called a traitor for standing up against these people.
I guess that's how it works, though. You question the establishment, whether it be religion or government, and someone
is bound to get pissed.

It is projection. The "conservatives" in America are mostly anti-American shit-weasels. They are terrible human beings, and call for totalitarian control of the country to reign in their personal demons. Catholic priests are raping children all over the globe, evangelicals keep getting caught in gay sex scandals, "conservative" executives keep getting caught cheating their customers, clients, and shareholders. They're all shitty human beings, and they are desperately focused on loudly vocally public declarations of goodness, because their actual behavior is so very terrible.

 

[Nom_de_Plume]

I also wouldn't pray during the moment of silence.

How could they force one to pray exactly? I'm pretty sure I've never prayed, I'll bow my head as a sign of respect to their religious beliefs (cuz man sometimes it's just easier) then I totally check out my shoes, make sure I don't have a run in my stocking, make sure my nail polish isn't chipped... whatever til they're done their yada yada.

 

[The Felonius Pope]

It is projection. The "conservatives" in America are mostly anti-American shit-weasels. They are terrible human beings, and call for totalitarian control of the country to reign in their personal demons. Catholic priests are raping children all over the globe, evangelicals keep getting caught in gay sex scandals, "conservative" executives keep getting caught cheating their customers, clients, and shareholders. They're all shitty human beings, and they are desperately focused on loudly vocally public declarations of goodness, because their actual behavior is so very terrible.

Yeah, I mean, that's what I've seen so far. Take, for example, these Tea Party people. They claim to be these nice, moral,
people who are going to get the United States back on track, but from what I've seen they're a bunch angry, ignorant, bigots. I doubt they would mind if the U.S. became a dictatorship, so long as the dictator was a conservative.

 

[The Felonius Pope]

How could they force one to pray exactly? I'm pretty sure I've never prayed, I'll bow my head as a sign of respect to their religious beliefs (cuz man sometimes it's just easier) then I totally check out my shoes, make sure I don't have a run in my stocking, make sure my nail polish isn't chipped... whatever til they're done their yada yada.

Well, that's the thing Nom. They don't force you to pray. Officially the moment of silence isn't for religious purposes, its for children to think about the coming day. I call bullshit, though.

 

[Nom_de_Plume]

How could they force one to pray exactly? I'm pretty sure I've never prayed, I'll bow my head as a sign of respect to their religious beliefs (cuz man sometimes it's just easier) then I totally check out my shoes, make sure I don't have a run in my stocking, make sure my nail polish isn't chipped... whatever til they're done their yada yada.

Well, that's the thing Nom. They don't force you to pray. Officially the moment of silence isn't for religious purposes, its for children to think about the coming day. I call bullshit, though.

Ah ok, bow head in a moment of silence, I totally do that. Especially at things like Remembrance day (I think you guys call it veterans day) As our family has always been huge into the military. (My eldest is currently serving)