Should bullying be a crime?

[Giliell]

@Zetetic
I agree with some of your analysis (but I think that schools in the states must be much worse than schools here), but not with your conclusions.
You'll allow me some professional bias. As a teacher I'm highly opposed against me being unemployed
No, I'll give you my reasons and my ideas

I'll try to give a whole lot of stuff some structure.

1. Home-schooling is an upper middle-class thing. A lot of people cannot afford to have one parent stay at home to school the kids. Even if shared within a "community". It only works in nice middle-class communities. It will make schools a true hell, because only kids whose parents cannot afford to homeschool them or who do not care will be there. And since political decissions and influence are usually not with those groups either , the funding will become worse and worse. It means that born poor equals dying poor. It harms society because we're wasting potential.

2. A parent and educational software don't make a teacher. That's why you don't let people teach just because they finished highschool, i mean, they should know everything they have to teach. It includes a hell lot of knowledge about your subject and pedagogy, psychology and didactics.

3. The amount of knowledge you learn is almost irrelevant. I know, that contradicts everything people think about schools, but if you think about waht you've learned in school and what you need now, it seems a horrible waste of time. What is important is that your ability to learn, think and reason is developed. And also your social interaction, but I'll come to that in a minute.

4. The world is not a pony-club and we better prepare our children for that. Now, please don't think I condone bullying, or violence. You'll see what my position is when I explain my alternatives. Things like homeschooling or gender seperate schools might have a positive effect on academic performance, but they have a terrible effect on social skills and coping skills. Child-psychologists and pedagogues already complain that children nowadays are too much under control and too much sheltered. They cannot try themselves, find out about their strengths. That may mean a broken arm because the tree was too high, but it also means that you are more likely to get an explorer.
Sheltering children from all the troubles of the world means that they will have no skills for coping once they're adults.
I'll explain it at the example of gender seperate education:
We know that in a mixed gender environement, boys get about twice as much attention as girls, be it positive or negative. They're much more loud-mouthed and agressive than girls, much more daring. And it is true that girls perform better in all-female environments. But the world isn't like that. One day they'll leave school and there will be their loud-mouthed male colleagues, and while the latter never learned to have some consideration, the former never learned to cope with them.

And now for what I think would be a solution:
Good schools
And I really mean good schools. Properly funded with enough teachers, psychologists, social workers.
Children develop empathy slowly and need some guidance. And a good school can do a lot in that respect.

I agree that schools nowadays teach obedience and belief instead of critical thinking, but that's not something we can't change and I have seen good ideas that are often very simple.

1. Participation instead of obedience
A classroom needs rules, sure. But if the teacher, instead of just telling them, lets the kids take part in finding out what's good and what's bad, the rules and sanctions are much more accepted. They can understand WHY you mustn't chat to your neighbour while other people try to solve a maths problem. And they'll enforce them themselves. Believe me, there's no tougher cop than a 12 year old who just caught a classmate

2. Class council
A class council is something that takes part regularly to talk about upcoming things like the next school trip (where do we go, participation again), but which is also held whenever needed because there are problems like bullying. Say the teacher noticed something, or some of the kids report something. Talking about what happened can actually solve problems. Make the other one feel empathy, give them tools to solve conflicts better in the future.
I'll talk about sanctions and consequences later.

3. Discovery instead of memorizing
Teach children how to learn, how to work things out, how to test them. Let them work on projects together (here the internet and computers can have a huge positive influence). Give them the task to prove that plants need sunlight to produce chlorophyl. Or that plants produce oxygen. Quite a lot of experiments that our fathers of science conducted are pretty easily to repeat. Give them a false hypothesis, let them falsify it. In short: give them the fishing rod, not the fish.

4. School courts
Again, participation instead of obedience. For behaviour that really needs to be "punished", you can have courts of students who judge the delinquent. They can exist at various levels for various "crimes". At the class level for enforcing the basic class rules, on the level of the grade, or on the level of the school. Still, supervision needed. But most kids, if they don't have to fear negative consequences themselves, will not let the bully get away with it. That's the power of the bully: Isolate your victim. But your victim will no longer by isolated in frront of the court, it's the bully who will be isolated.

Some of those ideas are easy to carry out, some of them are more difficult to carry out. But you can make a difference for all children, not only for those who have a headstart in life anyway

 

[ArthurWilborn]

I'd agree with all but the last one. I've seen it tried, but I've never seen it work well. It is at best a sockpuppet for the teacher, and once you're doing that it's a lot more efficient to just play the heavy yourself.

 

[Zetetic]

@Zetetic
I agree with some of your analysis (but I think that schools in the states must be much worse than schools here), but not with your conclusions.
You'll allow me some professional bias. As a teacher I'm highly opposed against me being unemployed
No, I'll give you my reasons and my ideas

I'll try to give a whole lot of stuff some structure.

1. Home-schooling is an upper middle-class thing. A lot of people cannot afford to have one parent stay at home to school the kids. Even if shared within a "community". It only works in nice middle-class communities. It will make schools a true hell, because only kids whose parents cannot afford to homeschool them or who do not care will be there. And since political decissions and influence are usually not with those groups either , the funding will become worse and worse. It means that born poor equals dying poor. It harms society because we're wasting potential.

As some background, I came from probably an average to moderately sub-average school in a state that ranks 32nd for teacher salaries. I certainly had good teachers, who were competent, and cared about the students. I also had teachers of pretty questionable competence, and some teachers that seem in retrospect to be totally immoral and immature (I remember one teacher who was also a coach that repeatedly encouraged beating up Gothic kids and constantly hit on the girl students).

There was pretty bad problem with smoking in the bathrooms, and there were definitely a lot of kids that used the book maneuver to snort pills (where they stick the pill under the book and smash the pill against the desk). I remember a lot of that happening. The student body was a mix of rural, suburban middle class and suburban lower class (lived in apartments near suburban areas etc.). So it had problems, but they were relatively mild and nowhere near as severe as many inner city schools.

I don't know if the anarchic approach only works in upper middle class communities, but it almost certainly doesn't work with kids from troubled homes. However, I don't see why it is logical for someone who can home school not to. I would certainly devote some of my time to voluntarily serving as a home school teacher for my community to fill in for parents who cannot find the time to serve. It seems intuitive that smaller groups of kids monitored by parents and serious volunteers would be infinitely more academically advantageous (which makes a big difference if you're going in to an academic field, which perhaps is largely comprised of middle class and upper middle class persons for this sort reason) than the public school setting.

I would say that it is likely that we will, in fact, see more decentralization among more educated groups who are likely to collaborate on a communal goal. It may well come with the territory that only the most problematic children will remain at the public schools, and one would hope that this would mean that they would be given even more attention and even more resources, but I suppose the fact of the matter would be that those with the resources to supply will begin to view the public school system as defunct and outmoded.

I do wish to make the point that, though this is the exception, there are poor people who also happen to be highly educated. There are other reasons you might find occupational difficulties (such as oppositional defiant disorder that interferes with you coping in a normal work place). These people would be able to seek out homeschooling collectives and so would any one of any class level that is actively interested in helping their kids.

I am suggesting that this may be inevitable.

2. A parent and educational software don't make a teacher. That's why you don't let people teach just because they finished highschool, i mean, they should know everything they have to teach. It includes a hell lot of knowledge about your subject and pedagogy, psychology and didactics.

It would likely take another decade to perfect the software, but I would be surprised if in ten years there is no software that provides an exploratory environment where the child can effectively learn large amounts of material and fully understand the material with demonstrably more efficacy than they would in the average public school. I have some insight, being well versed in computer science and programming and having taught myself (though I have had somewhat limited experience). I have full confidence that an understanding of neuropsychology will lead to better pedagogy and will ultimately lead to automation of teaching. Not to mention the fact that interactive technology is more and more prevalent (if you have access to it).

Do I think this may have a negative affect on the public school system? Possibly. Do I think it will negatively affect those children who do not have caring or responsible parents? Very likely. Do I think that this makes it any less likely to become a reality in the near future? No.

3. The amount of knowledge you learn is almost irrelevant. I know, that contradicts everything people think about schools, but if you think about waht you've learned in school and what you need now, it seems a horrible waste of time. What is important is that your ability to learn, think and reason is developed. And also your social interaction, but I'll come to that in a minute.

http://lesswrong.com/lw/iq/guessing_the_teachers_password/

That is an interesting piece about this.

4. The world is not a pony-club and we better prepare our children for that. Now, please don't think I condone bullying, or violence. You'll see what my position is when I explain my alternatives. Things like homeschooling or gender seperate schools might have a positive effect on academic performance, but they have a terrible effect on social skills and coping skills. Child-psychologists and pedagogues already complain that children nowadays are too much under control and too much sheltered. They cannot try themselves, find out about their strengths. That may mean a broken arm because the tree was too high, but it also means that you are more likely to get an explorer.
Sheltering children from all the troubles of the world means that they will have no skills for coping once they're adults.
I'll explain it at the example of gender seperate education:
We know that in a mixed gender environement, boys get about twice as much attention as girls, be it positive or negative. They're much more loud-mouthed and agressive than girls, much more daring. And it is true that girls perform better in all-female environments. But the world isn't like that. One day they'll leave school and there will be their loud-mouthed male colleagues, and while the latter never learned to have some consideration, the former never learned to cope with them.

i think that there are diminishing returns, and that the step towards homeschooling is necessarily a good deal for whomever takes it. You still get to interact with other kids from various backgrounds if it's done right. The fact of the matter seems to be that more often than not, middle class kids will grow up to be middle class and generally interact with other middle class people. Maybe this isn't true, but it appears to be the case to me. I'm not going to have much peer level interaction with the guy that came from a broken home unless he overcomes that and becomes a middle class person. Maybe this is not healthy, but there are clear advantages.

And now for what I think would be a solution:
Good schools
And I really mean good schools. Properly funded with enough teachers, psychologists, social workers.
Children develop empathy slowly and need some guidance. And a good school can do a lot in that respect.

It still seems to be to be the case that the students who can afford to do so should opt for the Montessori school, and those who can't should opt for homeschooling. Both seem to offer tangible benefits, without resorting to bringing up character building. Noam Chomsky turned out alright going to a Montessori school.

I agree that schools nowadays teach obedience and belief instead of critical thinking, but that's not something we can't change and I have seen good ideas that are often very simple.

1. Participation instead of obedience
A classroom needs rules, sure. But if the teacher, instead of just telling them, lets the kids take part in finding out what's good and what's bad, the rules and sanctions are much more accepted. They can understand WHY you mustn't chat to your neighbour while other people try to solve a maths problem. And they'll enforce them themselves. Believe me, there's no tougher cop than a 12 year old who just caught a classmate

My mother suggested a clever mechanism related to this. Some students learn at a faster rate than others. This should be encouraged, but it should only go on until every student that is not special needs ( who may require additional, specialized help) understands the material. This is accomplished by having continual tests, and whoever scores in the A range on the test is assigned to assist those who score below the A range. This way the students become interdependent and can teach one another.

I have an intuitive feeling that this will not work unless you have a small group of students with above normal level of supervision. It seems more likely to me that the students would just continue to act in whatever way they wanted to and would simply stop solving maths problems altogether rather than be considerate to their fellow student. Do you have a different experience?

2. Class council
A class council is something that takes part regularly to talk about upcoming things like the next school trip (where do we go, participation again), but which is also held whenever needed because there are problems like bullying. Say the teacher noticed something, or some of the kids report something. Talking about what happened can actually solve problems. Make the other one feel empathy, give them tools to solve conflicts better in the future.
I'll talk about sanctions and consequences later.

3. Discovery instead of memorizing
Teach children how to learn, how to work things out, how to test them. Let them work on projects together (here the internet and computers can have a huge positive influence). Give them the task to prove that plants need sunlight to produce chlorophyl. Or that plants produce oxygen. Quite a lot of experiments that our fathers of science conducted are pretty easily to repeat. Give them a false hypothesis, let them falsify it. In short: give them the fishing rod, not the fish.

I agree with this. It seems like the political structure of the school system makes it difficult to do this. Standardized testing seems to impede the possibility of really understanding the material in order to meet the deadline.

4. School courts
Again, participation instead of obedience. For behaviour that really needs to be "punished", you can have courts of students who judge the delinquent. They can exist at various levels for various "crimes". At the class level for enforcing the basic class rules, on the level of the grade, or on the level of the school. Still, supervision needed. But most kids, if they don't have to fear negative consequences themselves, will not let the bully get away with it. That's the power of the bully: Isolate your victim. But your victim will no longer by isolated in frront of the court, it's the bully who will be isolated.

Some of those ideas are easy to carry out, some of them are more difficult to carry out. But you can make a difference for all children, not only for those who have a headstart in life anyway

We had a student court at my school. It didn't work well. Very little effort was put in to ascertaining the truth. The court was an apparatus of public opinion among the student body more than anything else.

I saw a guy knock a student over, kick him against a wall and steal his shoes because he wouldn't give him his money while other students watched. He got suspended, but I really fail to see what a student court would do there.

We had police officers on the premises, they were reasonably effective and only a couple of students were shot with a taser while I was there. A few more were cuffed. I'm curious about whether this is at all the atmosphere at your schools? I know that I will most likely be homeschooling my kids if I have the opportunity.

 

[WarK]

What's good is a lesson in bullying if you've committed a suicide after it?

 

[Yfelsung]

What's good is a lesson in bullying if you've committed a suicide after it?

To be fair, if bullying causes you to actually care enough to kill yourself... well, I'm just saying, I don't think we lost an emotionally stable or productive person.

I mean, anyone here who has spent enough time on the internet has probably been called everything under the sun and I don't think any of us bat an eye.

I grew up bullied by kids and my own parents. Sure, my dad taught me to fight, but I still spent the first 20 years of my life being insulted from every angle imaginable and I've never tried to kill myself.

I think Woody said it best in Zombieland.

"Nut up or shut up."

We have almost 7 billion people on earth, we can afford to lose a couple.

 

[WarK]

What's good is a lesson in bullying if you've committed a suicide after it?

To be fair, if bullying causes you to actually care enough to kill yourself... well, I'm just saying, I don't think we lost an emotionally stable or productive person.

and who gets to decide who is a productive person and who may be spared?
The thing about children is that they have whole life before them, no one can tell what their contribution could be.

We have almost 7 billion people on earth, we can afford to lose a couple.

yeeees, let's start with all the disabled people cause they're not too productive, are they?
and we definitely should start gladiator arenas again, so many useless people going around and wasting oxygen, imagine the advertising potential. Now that's the way to make the economy good again. And most of the useless people have quite useful organs... how could I've missed all those opportunities for humanity to rise to another level?

*sigh*

 

[Andiferous]

Congratulations, Yfelsung! Your compassion for people skill has gone down 1 (-3)!

 

[Yfelsung]

yeeees, let's start with all the disabled people cause they're not too productive, are they?
and we definitely should start gladiator arenas again, so many useless people going around and wasting oxygen, imagine the advertising potential. Now that's the way to make the economy good again. And most of the useless people have quite useful organs... how could I've missed all those opportunities for humanity to rise to another level?

*sigh*

How exactly do you make the logical progression from me being indifferent to suicide to me being okay with genocide?

These.people.took.their.own.life.

What do you want, sympathy? For every 1 kid who can't take it, a thousand (and that's being generous, it's likely much much higher) get bullied and just walk away. I especially have no respect for someone who gets their feelings hurt over the goddamn internet.

I was a fat kid with two drunks for parents, I was socially awkward, terrified of other people and got picked on pretty much every damn day for the first few years of my school career. I had a father who made me eat dirt if I didn't clean well enough. I am not afraid to say I had a pretty damn shitty childhood, worse than a lot of kids who off themselves, and here I am at 27 and I think a lot of people on this forum will attest to me having a pretty damn high opinion of myself.

I know more kids like me, who bullying forged into a fully functioning high-self esteem adult than I know people who bullying caused them to kill themselves.

The real world has bullies, we have to learn to deal with them at a young age.

 

[lrkun]

yeeees, let's start with all the disabled people cause they're not too productive, are they?
and we definitely should start gladiator arenas again, so many useless people going around and wasting oxygen, imagine the advertising potential. Now that's the way to make the economy good again. And most of the useless people have quite useful organs... how could I've missed all those opportunities for humanity to rise to another level?

*sigh*

How exactly do you make the logical progression from me being indifferent to suicide to me being okay with genocide?

These.people.took.their.own.life.

What do you want, sympathy? For every 1 kid who can't take it, a thousand (and that's being generous, it's likely much much higher) get bullied and just walk away. I especially have no respect for someone who gets their feelings hurt over the goddamn internet.

I was a fat kid with two drunks for parents, I was socially awkward, terrified of other people and got picked on pretty much every damn day for the first few years of my school career. I had a father who made me eat dirt if I didn't clean well enough. I am not afraid to say I had a pretty damn shitty childhood, worse than a lot of kids who off themselves, and here I am at 27 and I think a lot of people on this forum will attest to me having a pretty damn high opinion of myself.

I know more kids like me, who bullying forged into a fully functioning high-self esteem adult than I know people who bullying caused them to kill themselves.

The real world has bullies, we have to learn to deal with them at a young age.

You have to understand, to some, your point of view seems socially unacceptable, even if it's correct, but other alternatives are also available and may equally work. Of course, your opinion and experience tells you this works, because you've lived it, however do you think other alternatives may work? Not everyone is willing to accept that their point of view is wrong, but it's worth thinking, and it's better if we have grounds to say if this method is better than this method.

 

[Zetetic]

You have to understand, to some, your point of view seems socially unacceptable

Yeah, it's because it's unreasonable. The issues are directly related. People have varied defects, one such defect is a tendency towards depression, one might be inability to cope socially. When both of these are combined they may result in suicide. What the logic Yfelsung is using dictates is that if someone has a defect that makes it difficult for them to cope, they deserve their situation. They are weak.

We give people crutches when they can't walk, by the same token, if they have a mental defect, we give them medication. Yfelsung, I think you're shit polishing to rationalize why having to eat dirt (maybe I'm not clear on the situation like you don't clean the dishes well and you have to put up with it, but sounds like child abuse to me) and be bullied all day are good because it builds character. Stuff and nonsense. I had my fair share of bullying too, jumped by multiple kids a number of times as early as elementary school. I can't say that I'm better for it.

Of course, I hold the strong belief that people should take full advantage of any sort of technology that would allow us to transcend our previous limitations whether it be mundane like cybernetic implants that add 100 points to your I.Q. or miraculous like Viagra.

So in the future, when you've modified yourself with ten insect legs so that you can move more efficiently, and you can memorize a thousand pages of text in a second, and because your brain has been retrofitted to reach it's physical capacity making one million times faster so that a second becomes an eternity and we are all relatively immortal, remember that you were polishing shit.

 

[lrkun]

You have to understand, to some, your point of view seems socially unacceptable

Yeah, it's because it's unreasonable. The issues are directly related. People have varied defects, one such defect is a tendency towards depression, one might be inability to cope socially. When both of these are combined they may result in suicide. What the logic Yfelsung is using dictates is that if someone has a defect that makes it difficult for them to cope, they deserve their situation. They are weak.

We give people crutches when they can't walk, by the same token, if they have a mental defect, we give them medication. Yfelsung, I think you're shit polishing to rationalize why having to eat dirt (maybe I'm not clear on the situation like you don't clean the dishes well and you have to put up with it, but sounds like child abuse to me) and be bullied all day are good because it builds character. Stuff and nonsense. I had my fair share of bullying too, jumped by multiple kids a number of times as early as elementary school. I can't say that I'm better for it.

Of course, I hold the strong belief that people should take full advantage of any sort of technology that would allow us to transcend our previous limitations whether it be mundane like cybernetic implants that add 100 points to your I.Q. or miraculous like Viagra.

So in the future, when you've modified yourself with ten insect legs so that you can move more efficiently, and you can memorize a thousand pages of text in a second, and because your brain has been retrofitted to reach it's physical capacity making one million times faster so that a second becomes an eternity and we are all relatively immortal, remember that you were polishing shit.

You're conclusion does not make sense. You were polishing shit? Please explain.

On the issue of bullying, I was bullied and I bullied people. I can see the pattern of what bullying is. You can see it in videos in the youtube, like where atheists would make fun of theists or when theists would make fun of atheists. Where, in this forum, in the debate analysis, almost everyone is making fun of micah. You do it, they do it. It's natural. I don't like it, I think it should be stopped, but sometimes, there is a need for a person to be exposed to this sort of thing. There are bad guys out there.

^,..^ Maybe if we can domesticate people, like that fox thing, it'd be nice.

 

[Zetetic]

You're conclusion does not make sense. You were polishing shit? Please explain.

.... ...... :cry:.............. ................... :? .................. :| .................... :lol:

 

[lrkun]

You're conclusion does not make sense. You were polishing shit? Please explain.

.... ...... :cry:.............. ................... :? .................. :| .................... :lol:

I gather that you didn't understand your own statement. I forgive you.

 

[Andiferous]

You're conclusion does not make sense. You were polishing shit? Please explain.

.... ...... :cry:.............. ................... :? .................. :| .................... :lol:

I gather that you didn't understand your own statement. I forgive you.

I can only suspect by his own confession that he was, given authority by expertise on communication metaphors. (Incidentally, this is a challenge to explain the phrase "polishing shit," my dear Z. )

To delve deeper into this topic (not to divert it, but because I'm finding it very informative)... @Giliell: What do you think of girl and boy "styles" of learning? I've heard a lot of discussion of boy- and girl-only schools lately, justified by the idea that boys and girls learn differently and reach maturity at different ages, and can get in the way of each others' learning in group environments. And arguments that co-ed environments can increase competition and things like bullying. I'm not sure what to think of it, myself.

 

[Jocomo]

Depending on where you draw the line, bullying is a crime and it isn't. I think it would depend a lot on intention.

There is agreement on where lines should be drawn but there's always the exception and everyone wants to be the exception.

What about adult bullying. Politicians, Bosses, Co-workers, Neighbors?

Bullying is censorship and should not be tolerated in any form.

 

[flavorteer]

Of course bullying should not be a crime. What a ridiculous idea. Anyone who thinks it should be ought to get a backbone.

 

[lrkun]

Some acts of bullying is already a crime, the question is, do these victims tell. Ex. Physical injuries and defamation.

 

[AdmiralPeacock]

Of course bullying should not be a crime. What a ridiculous idea. Anyone who thinks it should be ought to get a backbone.

Let me guess, you never went without lunch money... despite not receiving an allowance.

 

[Eidolon]

Bullying wouldn't be a problem if the schools didn't discipline the victim for kicking the bully's ass.

Society has been pussified by political correctness and the fears of litigation. If only people were allowed to take up for themselves and kick an ass or two when needed, this shit just wouldn't happen. Seriously, have you ever seen a bully pick on someone after that person beat the shit out of them? I know violence is never a good thing, but fuck it, some people need to have their asses handed to them from time to time. Its a fact of life.

I suppose if the bully is picking on someone who is disabled or significantly weaker than himself then some kind of external administrative action would be needed. But if some guy is beating up on a wheelchaired girl or the retarded kid, then obviously it goes beyond simple school yard bullying and into a very disturbing "need to hurt weaker things" psychosis and should probably be looked into by professionals.

Just my $.05 (Increased due to inflation)

 

[lrkun]

Bullying wouldn't be a problem if the schools didn't discipline the victim for kicking the bully's ass.

Society has been pussified by political correctness and the fears of litigation. If only people were allowed to take up for themselves and kick an ass or two when needed, this shit just wouldn't happen. Seriously, have you ever seen a bully pick on someone after that person beat the shit out of them? I know violence is never a good thing, but fuck it, some people need to have their asses handed to them from time to time. Its a fact of life.

I suppose if the bully is picking on someone who is disabled or significantly weaker than himself then some kind of external administrative action would be needed. But if some guy is beating up on a wheelchaired girl or the retarded kid, then obviously it goes beyond simple school yard bullying and into a very disturbing "need to hurt weaker things" psychosis and should probably be looked into by professionals.

Just my $.05 (Increased due to inflation)

Check your penal code if there is a section for this sort of thing. In my jurisdiction, there is, what about yours?