Should Black lives matter to me anymore?

[Laurens]

You're operating on the assumption that there are no white street dealers. There's no basis for that.

I know there are white street dealers.

In the US, most street dealers are not white. Street dealing territories are controlled by street gangs. Out of 100 or so of the major nationwide gangs in the US, there are only 1 or 2 that readily accept white members. The reason for this is that most of the gangs are run by people who are either in prison or are expected to eventually be in prison where they will not be allowed to associate much with people outside of their race and it just plays out from there. If you are a white person in prison, you are not going to joining the Bloods or the GD's, your going to join a "white power" gang. Thats how it is.

The simple truth is that poor black neighbourhoods are subject to higher police harassment. This is evidenced by the disparity between the number of black people stopped on suspicion of drugs vs...

What is the number of black people who have been harassed by the police? And what is the number for white people? Where do you get these numbers from?

http://www.release.org.uk/publications/numbers-black-and-white-ethnic-disparities-policing-and-prosecution-drug-offences

 

[Gnug215]

I suspect this all has less to do with treating people equally and more to do with how police become aware of criminal activity and the level of involvement and resources required to arrest different types of criminals who in all practicality are committing the same crime.

I have never seen a white person standing on a street corner selling drugs.

You suspect...

You have never seen...

Is this how you form most of your opinions?

No wonder you're religious.

Now, I could go on to tell you about how you should do your research on the topic, inform yourself, check statistics, etc. But instead I'm going to ask you where exactly your line of "reasoning" seems to be going.

Assuming it is true that there's more black drug dealers, what exactly do you think that means? And what could be some of the causes behind it?

 

[thenexttodie]

You're operating on the assumption that there are no white street dealers. There's no basis for that.

I know there are white street dealers.

In the US, most street dealers are not white. Street dealing territories are controlled by street gangs. Out of 100 or so of the major nationwide gangs in the US, there are only 1 or 2 that readily accept white members. The reason for this is that most of the gangs are run by people who are either in prison or are expected to eventually be in prison where they will not be allowed to associate much with people outside of their race and it just plays out from there. If you are a white person in prison, you are not going to joining the Bloods or the GD's, your going to join a "white power" gang. Thats how it is.

The simple truth is that poor black neighbourhoods are subject to higher police harassment. This is evidenced by the disparity between the number of black people stopped on suspicion of drugs vs...

What is the number of black people who have been harassed by the police? And what is the number for white people? Where do you get these numbers from?

http://www.release.org.uk/publications/numbers-black-and-white-ethnic-disparities-policing-and-prosecution-drug-offences

Thank you for that. I don't really know much about the UK. Are blacks more like to be "street dealling" than whites there? If so, then I would expect more blacks to be stopped and searched than whites. And I would expect more blacks to be convicted for possession.

 

[Laurens]

Thank you for that. I don't really know much about the UK. Are blacks more like to be "street dealling" than whites there? If so, then I would expect more blacks to be stopped and searched than whites. And I would expect more blacks to be convicted for possession.

I'm not sure, but I think focusing on street dealing is missing the point.

The point is that if you are black and you go out on the street with friends you are more likely to be approached and possibly searched by the police even if you're just on your way to see a movie or whatever. The point being that some people in the police force and outside of it see black youths and assume "criminal" despite the fact that a group of white youths are just as likely (if not more likely) to be engaged in a criminal activity.

Both you and I haven't had the experience of a police officer stopping us for no reason other than the fact that we are black. It's something that black people have to deal with growing up. Talking about people who are criminals misses the point. The point is that people who have never touched drugs in their life are being unfairly treated because they are young and black and therefore fit certain people's prejudices for what constitutes a suspicious person.

Also as those statistics point out, you and I could get stopped for smoking a joint and have more chance of just getting off with a warning that a black person---who face harsher punishments, despite actually using less drugs than white people. What reason can there possibly be for a black person to be treated with harsher punishments than a white person for the same crime, other than institutionalized racism?

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

Thank you for that. I don't really know much about the UK. Are blacks more like to be "street dealling" than whites there? If so, then I would expect more blacks to be stopped and searched than whites. And I would expect more blacks to be convicted for possession.

I'm not sure, but I think focusing on street dealing is missing the point.

The point is that if you are black and you go out on the street with friends you are more likely to be approached and possibly searched by the police even if you're just on your way to see a movie or whatever. The point being that some people in the police force and outside of it see black youths and assume "criminal" despite the fact that a group of white youths are just as likely (if not more likely) to be engaged in a criminal activity.

Both you and I haven't had the experience of a police officer stopping us for no reason other than the fact that we are black. It's something that black people have to deal with growing up. Talking about people who are criminals misses the point. The point is that people who have never touched drugs in their life are being unfairly treated because they are young and black and therefore fit certain people's prejudices for what constitutes a suspicious person.

Also as those statistics point out, you and I could get stopped for smoking a joint and have more chance of just getting off with a warning that a black person---who face harsher punishments, despite actually using less drugs than white people. What reason can there possibly be for a black person to be treated with harsher punishments than a white person for the same crime, other than institutionalized racism?

Looks like thenexttodie needs to read up on implicit biases and perhaps take a test on them. One can only act obtuse on the internet for so long, before it becomes obvious that they do not wish to learn anything new about a subject.

Oh, and Laurens, perhaps you should start asking thenexttodie to support some of his claims with citations.

 

[thenexttodie]

Thank you for that. I don't really know much about the UK. Are blacks more like to be "street dealling" than whites there? If so, then I would expect more blacks to be stopped and searched than whites. And I would expect more blacks to be convicted for possession.

I'm not sure, but I think focusing on street dealing is missing the point.

The point is that if you are black and you go out on the street with friends you are more likely to be approached and possibly searched by the police even if you're just on your way to see a movie or whatever. The point being that some people in the police force and outside of it see black youths and assume "criminal" despite the fact that a group of white youths are just as likely (if not more likely) to be engaged in a criminal activity.

If blacks in the UK are more likely to be street dealing then that is probably the reason this happens. You say you are "not sure" if they are more likely...


Whites and blacks in the US tend to sell drugs in different ways, mostly for the reasons I have already talked about. This alone should be enough to reasonably explain most discrepancies with which you have concern. As it would require less police resources to spot a street deal. I noticed from the statics you provided that blacks in the UK are less likely to be let off with a warning than whites are, for possession. Possession of a controlled substance is often a charge street dealers in the US are taken in on. As it is easier to prove possession than it is to prove an intent to sell.

I'd like to point out something that statistics like these dont show you. If the same street dealers are getting stopped 2 or 3 or 4 times a year (which they probably are) thats going to make your scenario of a black guy going out to dinner and a movie with his girlfriend and getting stopped and searched at random, all the less likely. So if a person selling drugs in the street is twice as likely to be black than white, then these statistics lose quite a bit of there initial shock value. The percentage of white who use drugs vs blacks is irrelevant here because one doesnt have to use drugs in order to sell or possess them.

 

[Laurens]

Thank you for that. I don't really know much about the UK. Are blacks more like to be "street dealling" than whites there? If so, then I would expect more blacks to be stopped and searched than whites. And I would expect more blacks to be convicted for possession.

I'm not sure, but I think focusing on street dealing is missing the point.

The point is that if you are black and you go out on the street with friends you are more likely to be approached and possibly searched by the police even if you're just on your way to see a movie or whatever. The point being that some people in the police force and outside of it see black youths and assume "criminal" despite the fact that a group of white youths are just as likely (if not more likely) to be engaged in a criminal activity.

If blacks in the UK are more likely to be street dealing then that is probably the reason this happens. You say you are "not sure" if they are more likely...


Whites and blacks in the US tend to sell drugs in different ways, mostly for the reasons I have already talked about. This alone should be enough to reasonably explain most discrepancies with which you have concern. As it would require less police resources to spot a street deal. I noticed from the statics you provided that blacks in the UK are less likely to be let off with a warning than whites are, for possession. Possession of a controlled substance is often a charge street dealers in the US are taken in on. As it is easier to prove possession than it is to prove an intent to sell.

I'd like to point out something that statistics like these dont show you. If the same street dealers are getting stopped 2 or 3 or 4 times a year (which they probably are) thats going to make your scenario of a black guy going out to dinner and a movie with his girlfriend and getting stopped and searched at random, all the less likely. So if a person selling drugs in the street is twice as likely to be black than white, then these statistics lose quite a bit of there initial shock value. The percentage of white who use drugs vs blacks is irrelevant here because one doesnt have to use drugs in order to sell or possess them.

Where do you get that a person selling drugs on the street is twice as likely to be black? Citation please?

https://www.dosomething.org/us/facts/11-facts-about-racial-discrimination

How do you explain those statistics in terms other than institutionalized racism?

The focus on people who are criminals is missing the point. I don't doubt that some black people commit crimes. The problem is when police think that being black automatically makes you suspicious. If you are walking down the street with a white friend to a bar or something, do you ever worry that you might get stopped and searched by the police? For 2 black guys in the exact same scenario would have to deal with that as a real possibility. They could be as straight edge as anything. Heck they could be hardcore evangelical Christians and still face that risk.

This is a very real issue. When we look at the rates of random searches versus what the actual demographics for crimes are, you see a very real prejudice.

You say that people selling drugs on the street are twice as likely to be black. The actual statistics do not reflect that. You need to cite some sources for that.

 

[SpecialFrog]

thenexttodie, here is an article documenting some of the issues involving racial bias in policing:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/25/us/racial-disparity-traffic-stops-driving-black.html?_r=0

Some quotes:

n North Carolina’s third-largest city, officers pulled over African-American drivers for traffic violations at a rate far out of proportion with their share of the local driving population. They used their discretion to search black drivers or their cars more than twice as often as white motorists — even though they found drugs and weapons significantly more often when the driver was white.
...
[M]ore than four times as many blacks as whites are arrested on the sole charge of resisting, obstructing or delaying an officer, an offense so borderline that some North Carolina police chiefs discourage its use unless more serious crimes are also involved.

There's a lot more in that article alone.

Then there's this article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/07/opinion/sunday/inquiry-into-ferguson-mo-police-practices-is-just-a-start.html

It talks about how police are used as revenue tools and how this combines with racial bias in traffic stops and other citations. If people don't have the money for the fines it results in more fees and / or jail time.

As Campbell Robertson and Joseph Goldstein of The Times reported last month, the municipal courts in places like Maplewood, Mo., are filled with blacks who are pulled over by officers and charged with offenses that increase in cost when a defendant misses a court date. According to a report by the state attorney general in 2013, black motorists in Maplewood were searched or arrested during stops at more than twice the rate of whites — even though searches of blacks and whites were similarly likely to turn up contraband.
...
In one community, “100 percent of all searches and arrests originating from traffic stops in Bel-Ridge in 2013 were of black individuals,”

Can you explain this evidence in a way that doesn't involve systematic, institutional racism?

 

[SpecialFrog]

If you prefer much of the same information in humorous form:

 

[thenexttodie]

Thank you for that. I don't really know much about the UK. Are blacks more like to be "street dealling" than whites there? If so, then I would expect more blacks to be stopped and searched than whites. And I would expect more blacks to be convicted for possession.

I'm not sure, but I think focusing on street dealing is missing the point.

The point is that if you are black and you go out on the street with friends you are more likely to be approached and possibly searched by the police even if you're just on your way to see a movie or whatever. The point being that some people in the police force and outside of it see black youths and assume "criminal" despite the fact that a group of white youths are just as likely (if not more likely) to be engaged in a criminal activity.

If blacks in the UK are more likely to be street dealing then that is probably the reason this happens. You say you are "not sure" if they are more likely...


Whites and blacks in the US tend to sell drugs in different ways, mostly for the reasons I have already talked about. This alone should be enough to reasonably explain most discrepancies with which you have concern. As it would require less police resources to spot a street deal. I noticed from the statics you provided that blacks in the UK are less likely to be let off with a warning than whites are, for possession. Possession of a controlled substance is often a charge street dealers in the US are taken in on. As it is easier to prove possession than it is to prove an intent to sell.

I'd like to point out something that statistics like these dont show you. If the same street dealers are getting stopped 2 or 3 or 4 times a year (which they probably are) thats going to make your scenario of a black guy going out to dinner and a movie with his girlfriend and getting stopped and searched at random, all the less likely. So if a person selling drugs in the street is twice as likely to be black than white, then these statistics lose quite a bit of there initial shock value. The percentage of white who use drugs vs blacks is irrelevant here because one doesnt have to use drugs in order to sell or possess them.

Where do you get that a person selling drugs on the street is twice as likely to be black? Citation please?

I asked you if there are more blacks are selling drugs in the street than white people in the UK and you said you didn't know. It's you country, not mine. From what information you have given me and from what little I know about the "Justice" system in the UK, the most rational explaination it seems to me is that black people are about street dealing at a rate about twice that of white people. To me, this fits with the statistics you provided in your link. What else am I supposed say? Maybe all street dealers there white and Britain is just full of racisist pigs?

https://www.dosomething.org/us/facts/11-facts-about-racial-discrimination

How do you explain those statistics in terms other than institutionalized racism?

I'll go through the first 4 with you and if you like we can do more later.

#1 Is irrelevant. One does not have to be a drug user to commit a drug related crime. It's the type of statistic that is only used for shock value,

2 Studies show that police are more likely to pull over and frisk blacks or Latinos than whites. In New York City, 80% of the stops made were blacks and Latinos, and 85% of those people were frisked, compared to a mere 8% of white people stopped.

New York City is huge. Where in New York are these people being pulled over? What percentage of the people are known dealers? Are they living or often visiting areas where it is easy for police to figure out that there is a lot of drug dealing going on?

3 After being arrested, African-Americans are 33% more likely than whites to be detained while facing a felony trial in New York.

YES! But this has to do with money. Not skin color. In the US, if you are being detained for a trail, you can almost always get out of jail until you are actually convicted. But this requires money. For a felony it might require tons of money and the signature of a home owner. Every state is a bit different. I can go into more detail if you wish.

4 In 2010, the U.S. Sentencing Commission reported that African Americans receive 10% longer sentences than whites through the federal system for the same crimes.

This actually could be evidence of blacks getting better plea bargains than whites. Plead guilty to a lesser charge and we will drop the more severe charges. But expect to receive the maximum sentence for the charge you plead guilty to.

This is a very real issue. When we look at the rates of random searches versus what the actual demographics for crimes are, you see a very real prejudice

You have not really provided any information at all on the demographics for crime for the UK.

The focus on people who are criminals is missing the point. I don't doubt that some black people commit crimes. The problem is when police think that being black automatically makes you suspicious. If you are walking down the street with a white friend to a bar or something, do you ever worry that you might get stopped and searched by the police? For 2 black guys in the exact same scenario would have to deal with that as a real possibility. They could be as straight edge as anything. Heck they could be hardcore evangelical Christians and still face that risk.

You need to take a step back and realize how small your little piss-ass world is. Ok? I have a fucking warrant for my arrest in the US for drinking beer. Stop and search is probably the most candy-land ass form of "harassment" I can think of. What about having your phone tapped? Or having an undercover agent befriend you, or having police threaten you over the phone. Or being photographed leaving a strip bar?

Or what about being choked to death like the police in the US did to that one black guy because they thought he was selling cigarettes?

I know what the police do in my country, I know who and where certain people sell drugs on the street in my home town. The police made a map of these drug turfs available on the net, And they are pretty accurate. I know a bit about most of the major gangs in America and I know who different kinds of people will join up with each other in prison and I know a bit how these gangs work on the street. I have lived in a few different states. All of them on opposite sides of the US and I meet people who know they same people I knew when I was a kid.

You live in country that is so very much smaller than the US and you can't even tell me if more blacks sell drugs on the street than whites there. Probably you are just scared to answer because other idiots would call you a racist. Your country is so fucking small how could you not know?

 

[WarK]

This is fucked up.

 

[thenexttodie]

thenexttodie, here is an article documenting some of the issues involving racial bias in policing..

Then there's this article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/07/opinion/sunday/inquiry-into-ferguson-mo-police-practices-is-just-a-start.html

It talks about how police are used as revenue tools and how this combines with racial bias in traffic stops and other citations. If people don't have the money for the fines it results in more fees and / or jail time.

[

I'm sorry I haven't been able to go through your entire post yet.

But I love the part where you say "It talks about how police are used as revenue tools and how this combines with racial bias in traffic stops and other citations. If people don't have the money for the fines it results in more fees and / or jail time."

This is the be all end all of this thread as far as I am concerned. Are you an American? You killed it. Excellent post, SpecialFrog. Wow.

I can't say anything else.

 

[thenexttodie]

As Campbell Robertson and Joseph Goldstein of The Times reported last month, the municipal courts in places like Maplewood, Mo., are filled with blacks who are pulled over by officers and charged with offenses that increase in cost when a defendant misses a court date. According to a report by the state attorney general in 2013, black motorists in Maplewood were searched or arrested during stops at more than twice the rate of whites — even though searches of blacks and whites were similarly likely to turn up contraband.
...
In one community, “100 percent of all searches and arrests originating from traffic stops in Bel-Ridge in 2013 were of black individuals,”

Can you explain this evidence in a way that doesn't involve systematic, institutional racism?

No. This to me sounds exactly like systematic institutional racism.

 

[Laurens]

I asked you if there are more blacks are selling drugs in the street than white people in the UK and you said you didn't know. It's you country, not mine. From what information you have given me and from what little I know about the "Justice" system in the UK, the most rational explaination it seems to me is that black people are about street dealing at a rate about twice that of white people. To me, this fits with the statistics you provided in your link. What else am I supposed say? Maybe all street dealers there white and Britain is just full of racisist pigs?

I don't know how many black people are selling drugs in the UK. I could find out, but I don't see why it's relevant.

My position is not black people don't sell drugs and there is a systematic conspiracy to hide that fact. My position is that black people are treated unfairly by the police and justice system when it comes to drug use and possession. Something which is demonstrated perfectly by the statistics I provided. You haven't shown anything to back up your position.

#1 Is irrelevant. One does not have to be a drug user to commit a drug related crime. It's the type of statistic that is only used for shock value,

Okay, I will grant what you say. You don't have to be a drug user to commit a drug related offence. That statistic doesn't show much. I wonder what drug use vs arrest for drug use would be though. I suspect it wouldn't paint a much greater image.

2 Studies show that police are more likely to pull over and frisk blacks or Latinos than whites. In New York City, 80% of the stops made were blacks and Latinos, and 85% of those people were frisked, compared to a mere 8% of white people stopped.

New York City is huge. Where in New York are these people being pulled over? What percentage of the people are known dealers? Are they living or often visiting areas where it is easy for police to figure out that there is a lot of drug dealing going on?

I couldn't tell you the answer to those questions. It's still alarming that 85% of the black and latino people stopped were frisked whilst only 8% of the white people. Even if we took into account stopping known dealers in dodgy areas this is indicative of racial prejudice.

3 After being arrested, African-Americans are 33% more likely than whites to be detained while facing a felony trial in New York.

YES! But this has to do with money. Not skin color. In the US, if you are being detained for a trail, you can almost always get out of jail until you are actually convicted. But this requires money. For a felony it might require tons of money and the signature of a home owner. Every state is a bit different. I can go into more detail if you wish.

So what you are saying is that black people are less likely to own property and more likely to live in poverty? And this is indicative of massive racial disparity, which doesn't exactly go against what Black Lives matter is all about.

4 In 2010, the U.S. Sentencing Commission reported that African Americans receive 10% longer sentences than whites through the federal system for the same crimes.

This actually could be evidence of blacks getting better plea bargains than whites. Plead guilty to a lesser charge and we will drop the more severe charges. But expect to receive the maximum sentence for the charge you plead guilty to.

Or it could be racism.

You need to take a step back and realize how small your little piss-ass world is. Ok? I have a fucking warrant for my arrest in the US for drinking beer. Stop and search is probably the most candy-land ass form of "harassment" I can think of. What about having your phone tapped? Or having an undercover agent befriend you, or having police threaten you over the phone. Or being photographed leaving a strip bar?

It's a fallacy to say that because one form of harassment is worse it means the other isn't harassment. That's bollocks. If I sent you abusive text messages every day would you say this isn't harassment because it's not as bad as me violently assaulting you every day? Harassment is harassment regardless of degree. And having your day interrupted to be stopped by a police officer for no other reason than being black is harassment whether it is not as bad as other forms of harassment or not...

I know what the police do in my country, I know who and where certain people sell drugs on the street in my home town. The police made a map of these drug turfs available on the net, And they are pretty accurate. I know a bit about most of the major gangs in America and I know who different kinds of people will join up with each other in prison and I know a bit how these gangs work on the street. I have lived in a few different states. All of them on opposite sides of the US and I meet people who know they same people I knew when I was a kid.

You live in country that is so very much smaller than the US and you can't even tell me if more blacks sell drugs on the street than whites there. Probably you are just scared to answer because other idiots would call you a racist. Your country is so fucking small how could you not know?

Well where are your statistics. I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

You need to take a step back and realize how small your little piss-ass world is. Ok? I have a fucking warrant for my arrest in the US for drinking beer. Stop and search is probably the most candy-land ass form of "harassment" I can think of. What about having your phone tapped? Or having an undercover agent befriend you, or having police threaten you over the phone. Or being photographed leaving a strip bar?

It's a fallacy to say that because one form of harassment is worse it means the other isn't harassment. That's bollocks. If I sent you abusive text messages every day would you say this isn't harassment because it's not as bad as me violently assaulting you every day? Harassment is harassment regardless of degree. And having your day interrupted to be stopped by a police officer for no other reason than being black is harassment whether it is not as bad as other forms of harassment or not...

:facepalm:

Is thenexttodie actually arguing that since he is a criminal, it is okay to treat other people like criminals. Talk about a lack of caring for your fallow human being.

 

[Gnug215]

:facepalm:

Is thenexttodie actually arguing that since he is a criminal, it is okay to treat other people like criminals. Talk about a lack of caring for your fallow human being.

He's a fundie. What did you expect?

 

[thenexttodie]

I asked you if there are more blacks are selling drugs in the street than white people in the UK and you said you didn't know. It's you country, not mine. From what information you have given me and from what little I know about the "Justice" system in the UK, the most rational explaination it seems to me is that black people are about street dealing at a rate about twice that of white people. To me, this fits with the statistics you provided in your link. What else am I supposed say? Maybe all street dealers there white and Britain is just full of racisist pigs?

I don't know how many black people are selling drugs in the UK. I could find out, but I don't see why it's relevant.

It's relevant because in the real world in any country there is only a limited amount of resources available for law enforcement. So lets say they assign 30 officers to bust people selling drugs in the street. They are going to look at places where they lots of people are selling drugs. And if there are a much greater amount of blacks selling drugs in street than whites or Mexicans or Chinese, then the police are of course going to focus on the blacks.

The more I look into it, it seems that the British people voted to make it illegal for citizens to know who and where people are commiting certain crimes? Do I have this right? Would it be illegal for you in Briton to say more black people sell drugs on the streets than whites?

My position is not black people don't sell drugs and there is a systematic conspiracy to hide that fact. My position is that black people are treated unfairly by the police and justice system when it comes to drug use and possession. Something which is demonstrated perfectly by the statistics I provided. You haven't shown anything to back up your position.

Well, I certainly would not expect anyone to be treated fairly by the Justice system, either in the UK or the United States. From the understanding I have from living in several countries in Europe for many years, I say that Europeans in general are racist to max. As I have pointed out before, Europeans are so racist, that white people in Europe are racist against other white people. You hate Italians, Russians, Poles, Bosnians, French, Germans, Syrians. So WTF?

The best place for all of them is the US. Our #4 American Chess Grandmaster is from Syria. We name streets after Polish people. Black people in the US will celebrate a Polish Holiday. Imagine that!

 

[Gnug215]

Thenexttodie, you're making so little sense now that it borders on de-railing.

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

Thenexttodie, you're making so little sense now that it borders on de-railing.

Are you honestly expecting anything else?

 

[Laurens]

Thenexttodie, you're making so little sense now that it borders on de-railing.

I agree. Literally no idea what that last post was about.

I'm done here for now

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