Setting up a Religious "Safe Zone" Tent - Atheism Convention

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

I've been drinking a bit, and after sitting back and contemplating a wee bit I was wondering:

At the next national convention, would it be possible for me to meet others like myself - not atheist, but interested in the discussion and banter, and willing to find a sheltered area within a relatively hostile environment. After all, Atheism+ has established a decent foothold where they can make a tent and "safe zones" at various conventions that have, basically, nothing to do with feminism - why can't those of us whom humor ourselves religious have such a set-up?

Not to mention, a wonderful area for discussion in what is otherwise a general echo-chamber of two sides striking at each other like flint and steel.

Just as well, we could try to slam up a "League of Reason" tent as well - since we do have a decent fanbase, recognizable utility, and AronRa is a frequent visitor.

 

[Visaki]

Re: Setting up a Religious "Safe Zone" Tent - Atheism Conven

Somehow an image of the League of Reason tent popped to my mind with a life sized cardboard AronRa at the front with a speechbubble saying "I'm already a member, why aren't you?".

 

[Inferno]

Re: Setting up a Religious "Safe Zone" Tent - Atheism Conven

I'm not sure how you want to accomplish that, the organizers probably won't let you.
But talking of conventions, I'm going to the one in London in July. There's no fixed date yet, but it's closest to me.

 

[Laurens]

Re: Setting up a Religious "Safe Zone" Tent - Atheism Conven

Why not go to a religious convention? Or a church/temple/whatever?

I mean its like providing an area for people who don't like Star Trek at a Star Trek convention.

 

[Inferno]

Re: Setting up a Religious "Safe Zone" Tent - Atheism Conven

Why not go to a religious convention? Or a church/temple/whatever?

I mean its like providing an area for people who don't like Star Trek at a Star Trek convention.

That being said, religious people habitually show up at atheist conventions, while non-Star Trek fans don't. When I was at the AAI meeting in Ireland, Hamza Tzortzis and co. showed up to engage with us.

So Hytegia, that's always a possibility, though you're not guaranteed a "safe zone".

 

[Laurens]

Re: Setting up a Religious "Safe Zone" Tent - Atheism Conven

Why not go to a religious convention? Or a church/temple/whatever?

I mean its like providing an area for people who don't like Star Trek at a Star Trek convention.

That being said, religious people habitually show up at atheist conventions, while non-Star Trek fans don't. When I was at the AAI meeting in Ireland, Hamza Tzortzis and co. showed up to engage with us.

So Hytegia, that's always a possibility, though you're not guaranteed a "safe zone".

I accept that this is true. However the notion of a 'safe zone' implies a place to get away from it all, however I'd say that if you don't want to be at a conference, don't go---you can't expect to be given a place of refuge.

 

[tuxbox]

Re: Setting up a Religious "Safe Zone" Tent - Atheism Conven

I could be wrong, but I think )O( Hytegia )O( was making a dig at Atheism + using conventions for Atheist to spew their non-Atheism agenda.

 

[Inferno]

Re: Setting up a Religious "Safe Zone" Tent - Atheism Conven

I could be wrong, but I think )O( Hytegia )O( was making a dig at Atheism + using conventions for Atheist to spew their non-Atheism agenda.

I'm still not sure what exactly an "atheist agenda" and what a "non atheist agenda" is supposed to be. Before anyone even thought about A+, people were already talking about social justice, science, education, politics... at atheist meetings! The horror.

 

[tuxbox]

Re: Setting up a Religious "Safe Zone" Tent - Atheism Conven

I'm still not sure what exactly an "atheist agenda" and what a "non atheist agenda" is supposed to be. Before anyone even thought about A+, people were already talking about social justice, science, education, politics... at atheist meetings! The horror.

I pretty much thought the whole point of the Atheist movement was to promote secularism (at least here in the US). I fail to see how social justice and feminism have anything to do with that.

 

[Noth]

Re: Setting up a Religious "Safe Zone" Tent - Atheism Conven

Well I can definitely see the link there, but it flows from secularism, not atheism per se. It is this aspect many people, myself included, find so objectionable about atheism+ : the seeming obsession with linking social causes to atheism.

Before you ask what link between securalism and social concerns I am referring to, I'm talking about how, if your aim is to create a more secularised society, obstructions to that from the side of religion often entail social obstacles like e.g. the right to abortion. So I can see the necessity for bringing social issues into a platform that aims for secularisation, but it is the misguided approach and the emphasis on atheism rather than secularism from the atheism+ side that gets knickers in a bunch.

As for your musings, Hytegia, I'd only wonder why you would feel the need to set up your own little corner there. You're not there to proselytise and I didn't think you generally felt like atheists provided a hostile environment for you

 

[Inferno]

Re: Setting up a Religious "Safe Zone" Tent - Atheism Conven

The logical consequence of atheism is secularism, the logical consequences of secularism are winning people to your viewpoint, which includes social issues, and social issues in and of itself.
I again fail to see how this is anything new or controversial. The only new part is that people state outright that they're talking about social issues without sneaking them in through the back door.

 

[tuxbox]

Re: Setting up a Religious "Safe Zone" Tent - Atheism Conven

The logical consequence of atheism is secularism, the logical consequences of secularism are winning people to your viewpoint, which includes social issues, and social issues in and of itself. I again fail to see how this is anything new or controversial. The only new part is that people state outright that they're talking about social issues without sneaking them in through the back door.

Not all atheist share the same social views. There are also people like myself who are not atheists who support a secular society. However, once the Atheist Movement moves into political and social ideologies that have nothing to do with secularism, it potentially alienates the people who do not share those ideologies. This video is a good example of what I am talking about. Basically what Greta Christina and Godless Bitches are saying, if you are not down with our way of thinking, then you are an enemy. I originally supported the “Occupy Wallstreet” movement, but once it was hijacked by Marxist and other far left ideologies it lost my support. The Atheism movement in the US already has enough problems as it is, without social agendas being attached to it.

 

[Inferno]

Re: Setting up a Religious "Safe Zone" Tent - Atheism Conven

Really? Are we going back to the bad, illogical arguments from the A+ thread? Can you please keep them in that particular thread and leave this one for Hytegia?

As for your arguments, there are two ways to respond to that:
1) Not sharing the same values is OK, but because they're the logical culmination of our current path, we should be free to TALK about them. Except for a few outliers, nobody's forcing you to leave if you don't agree with their exact position. However, once again note that these issues have been talked about for ages (not sure exactly for how long, but certainly since I've been in the scene, so at least for a decade). The only difference is that now we're putting the "social issues" part in the header of the talk.
2) That being said, if people don't agree with some basic, social norms: Fuck em. I don't need them. Some things just aren't optional. If you're a racist, I don't want you in a conference I attend. If you're abusive, homophobic, misogynistic... fuck you, I don't need you.

Is that group-think? You might call it that, I call it a "comfortable meeting place".

And as for the video: Are we watching the same video? It highlights perfectly what I've been saying, but what you fail to understand: It's about an acceptance of very basic social norms, something I'm sure Aron would agree with. Don't be a dick, that kinda thing. They're NOT suggesting you should say "yes" and "amen" to everything they say, they only want people around them who are not total assholes. I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about that.

Greta Christina also raises another point which I've elaborated on in the A+ thread: It doesn't matter what you call yourself (Atheist, A+, Secularist, etc.), as long as you agree that
a) some basic, social norms should be adhered to.
b) social issues are an issue that should be talked about.

Just on a side note: Which problems does the atheist movement in the US have to contend with? I'm not from around there, so I don't know.

 

[Prolescum]

Re: Setting up a Religious "Safe Zone" Tent - Atheism Conven

I originally supported the “Occupy Wallstreet” movement, but once it was hijacked by Marxist and other far left ideologies it lost my support.

Eh?

Firstly, the Occupy Movement was always about two things: economic inequality, and corruption of the political class by corporations and banks.
Which of the two issues were you in agreement with Occupy prior to learning that those issues were left wing perennials?

Secondly, can you please explain, without reference to an encyclopedia, what you think a Marxist is?
Also, could you name the other far left ideologies that hijacked the movement?



My feelings on the other thing are available elsewhere so I won't bother with that.

 

[Laurens]

Re: Setting up a Religious "Safe Zone" Tent - Atheism Conven

I think this whole idea of atheism being a movement looks very odd from this side of the pond. I am an atheist and I don't feel like that makes me part of a movement any more than my interest in/fixation with monkeys does.

 

[tuxbox]

Re: Setting up a Religious "Safe Zone" Tent - Atheism Conven

Really? Are we going back to the bad, illogical arguments from the A+ thread? Can you please keep them in that particular thread and leave this one for Hytegia?

First off, my first post was a guess as to what Hytegia's post was about. Which is why I said I could be wrong (and I probably am). Creating a religious safe zone tent at an Atheism convention does not make any sense to me, hence the guessing. Your first post seemed to be directed towards my post and not Hytegia's, so I responded to it.

As for your arguments, there are two ways to respond to that:
1) Not sharing the same values is OK, but because they're the logical culmination of our current path, we should be free to TALK about them. Except for a few outliers, nobody's forcing you to leave if you don't agree with their exact position. However, once again note that these issues have been talked about for ages (not sure exactly for how long, but certainly since I've been in the scene, so at least for a decade). The only difference is that now we're putting the "social issues" part in the header of the talk.
2) That being said, if people don't agree with some basic, social norms: Fuck em. I don't need them. Some things just aren't optional. If you're a racist, I don't want you in a conference I attend. If you're abusive, homophobic, misogynistic... fuck you, I don't need you.

1) How does promoting “Social Justice and Feminism” logically follow getting religion out of politics and education, and promoting science and reason?

2) Not agreeing with “Social Justice” and “Feminism” does not make someone abusive, homophobic, misogynistic or any other type of asshole slur you can think of.

Is that group-think? You might call it that, I call it a "comfortable meeting place".

And as for the video: Are we watching the same video? It highlights perfectly what I've been saying, but what you fail to understand: It's about an acceptance of very basic social norms, something I'm sure Aron would agree with. Don't be a dick, that kinda thing. They're NOT suggesting you should say "yes" and "amen" to everything they say, they only want people around them who are not total assholes. I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about that.

Greta Christina also raises another point which I've elaborated on in the A+ thread: It doesn't matter what you call yourself (Atheist, A+, Secularist, etc.), as long as you agree that
a) some basic, social norms should be adhered to.
b) social issues are an issue that should be talked about.

Possibly

Just on a side note: Which problems does the atheist movement in the US have to contend with? I'm not from around there, so I don't know.

Ignorance of the general population, a powerful religious lobby, a misperception of atheism and a majority who believe in God.

 

[tuxbox]

Re: Setting up a Religious "Safe Zone" Tent - Atheism Conven

Eh?

Firstly, the Occupy Movement was always about two things: economic inequality, and corruption of the political class by corporations and banks.
Which of the two issues were you in agreement with Occupy prior to learning that those issues were left wing perennials?

Secondly, can you please explain, without reference to an encyclopedia, what you think a Marxist is?
Also, could you name the other far left ideologies that hijacked the movement?



My feelings on the other thing are available elsewhere so I won't bother with that.

1) I am in agreement with all those issues.

2) My generic summary of Marxism: a political, social and economic system based on a Direct Democracy in which the state controls all aspects of production.

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

Re: Setting up a Religious "Safe Zone" Tent - Atheism Conven

It was sort of middle-cast dig along with serious.

But, in all the irony that comes with the seriousness, there is a small, highly-discriminated community within the global atheist community which consists of those whom, for some reason or another, still consider ourselves religious. From moderates to short-breathed "I'm theist" types, it's a significant factor.

Why shouldn't we get the same provisions and protections under the large-spread umbrella of social justice? Or is it only Social Justice when it applies to atheists at these conventions?

And, well, the League of Reason tent was also tossed out because we've got an avid fanbase and drawing in crowds (for better or for worse) makes for an active fanbase and an interactive "League Of Reason" experience.

 

[Aught3]

Re: Setting up a Religious "Safe Zone" Tent - Atheism Conven

Atheists talking about atheism at an atheist convention can't really be fairly described as an 'echo-chamber'. The reason a conference like this is held is to set up a background assumption of atheism so the participants can get to other topics to discuss rather than repeating all the stuff in the theism/atheism debate. One example of further topic is the intersection of atheism with secularism and social justice issues like feminism. It's not suprising topic like these come up at atheist conferences but a specific place for theists seems a little weird. It's fine if some theists want to go to atheist conferences to learn about a different point of view but to complain about the background assumption being one of 'no-god' misses the point of the conference.

 

[Inferno]

Re: Setting up a Religious "Safe Zone" Tent - Atheism Conven

1) How does promoting “Social Justice and Feminism” logically follow getting religion out of politics and education, and promoting science and reason?

The logical consequence of atheism is secularism, the logical consequences of secularism are winning people to your viewpoint, which includes social issues, and social issues in and of itself.

Tell me, does secularism follow from (among others) atheism? I think it does.
Tell me, does winning over people to your viewpoint* follow from both atheism and secularism? I think it does.
Tell me, does talking about social issues follow from winning over people? I think it does.

*Note: I'm not only talking about de-converts, but simply having people accept that secularism is a good thing.

Tell me, how does the promotion of science and reason follow from atheism? I've seen some very unscientific and unreasonable atheists, so surely that's not part of the atheist movement. After all, not all people share the same values. Heck, I've even seen atheists who don't care if religion is in or out of politics and education, so THAT can't be talked about either!

2) Not agreeing with “Social Justice” and “Feminism” does not make someone abusive, homophobic, misogynistic or any other type of asshole slur you can think of.

How would you define "Feminism"? In my view, it means that a woman is as important as I am, that I will not regard her as a mere object, that I won't put her in an uncomfortable position because I'm horny and that I won't discriminate against women. That's it and that's all Rebecca Watson, Greta Christina and co. stand for. If you disagree with any of the above, then YES! you are a misogynistic asshole and/or abusive.

How would you define "Social Justice"? What is advocated by a fair number of people in the atheist movement is respect, tolerance and equality for people of all skin colours, mental states, physical states, religions, etc. etc. The same conditions as above (don't objectify them, don't put them n awkward positions, etc.) apply. If you disagree with any of the above, you're racist/homophobic slime.
And once we get past the issue of having the same rights for "them", maybe we can regard them as part of "us". Sadly, it seems the way is still quite bumpy and long.

Ignorance of the general population, a powerful religious lobby, a misperception of atheism and a majority who believe in God.

Is that a complete list? Why doesn't it include advocating skepticism on a broad level? That's one of the topics you'll often hear at atheist conferences.
Why doesn't it include political challenges to atheism?
Why doesn't it include secularism?
Why doesn't it include social issues and feminism?
Why doesn't it include ...

I'll be sure to have a blog post on this topic.