Scientific And Historical Evidence That Religion is True!

[Story]

Notice I didn't mention which religion?

Yes, any religion. I'm curious as to what scientific or historical evidence there is to prove any religion. I'm not too bothered if it's phony or not (As long as it's not obviously phony).

A few things have happened lately that have got me thinking. Every time I talk to Christians about my atheism, they give me evidence of their religion with the historicity of the Bible or some anecdote they care to share, so I just want to have a collection of anecdotes and evidences of other religions to pass back.

The basic idea is, the more we prove every religion, the more we disprove every religion.

Evidence against evolution doesn't count. Evidence against evolution isn't proof of any particular religion.

I'll start.

Book of Mormon Proofs

Testimony and Evidence that the Moon was Split by Muhammed (Also a picture of the split moon today )

Nihon Shoki - Chronicles of Japan (A book which historians and archaeologists use to determine the history of Japan, despite it's Shinto-mythological beginnings.)

 

[nemesiss]

Re: Scientific And Historical Evidence That Religion is True

first question: what do you mean by "true"?
do you mean that the religion exists/existed and is/was practiced or that a certain religion is factually correct and in balance with reality or something tottaly different?

 

[Story]

Re: Scientific And Historical Evidence That Religion is True

Well I don't think anyone doubts that religions exists... so I'll be talking about something different.

 

[borrofburi]

Re: Scientific And Historical Evidence That Religion is True

The basic idea is, the more we prove every religion, the more we disprove every religion.

Maybe they'll finally get it then? I doubt it. They honestly don't understand that the same reason they reject other religions is why we reject theirs... Except that one guy I asked the question "why christianity instead of, say, mormonism?" and he responded "because I'm more familiar with christianity and I've had good experiences with it", which, if not exactly rational, was at least honest.

So you can compile your list of evidences, and they'll spend hours "disproving" each and every piece, and probably even make your point for you: that even if these historical trivia were true, it does not prove the religion; and then they'll be unable to understand that that applies to their religion as well...

Hmm... now I'm sounding horribly negative... I didn't mean to... I really am curious how this turns out.

I guess the real problem, for many religious people I talk to, is that they simply don't have critical thinking facilities developed. I mean obviously there are the frustrating ones who are capable and good at critical thinking and apply it everywhere except their own religious beliefs but often those people are (1) liars for jesus or (2) believe in some sort of pick and choose religion where god loves us but hell doesn't exist and evolution and abiogenesis and all that can be completely true. But in general, I run into christians like Japha who, even after being shown many many many times, fails to understand that his argument is fallacious and thus false...

Maybe he'd get it if we could quickly show him that ever other religion is just as well verified?

 

[Story]

Re: Scientific And Historical Evidence That Religion is True

Maybe he'd get it if we could quickly show him that ever other religion is just as well verified?

Maybe, I do have the smallest hope that this may wake up some people, but to be honest I'd just like a bit of an arsenal to blabber back when people blabber theirs at me. I'm also interested in seeing if we'll actually see someone use the exact same logic that would debunk their claim to debunk another claim while claiming their claim is true. I know some of us have seen this done before, but I'm simply interested in seeing it repeated and demonstrated.

This was actually inspired by the thread AronRa made "Scientific Evidences for Islam", wherein which I found myself looking for scientific evidence for the book of Mormon in order to demonstrate that this kind of science doesn't demonstrate anything. I was also told recently that Jesus's resurrection was a historical fact because it's multiply attested in old books, to which I said Muhammed's splitting of the Moon was also multiply attested and the response to that was "It was obviously an illusion".

So I know what the responses will be, but I'm really interested in this kind of argument anyway, because no one really searches for the "proofs" of the religions that they're not really a part of, but as atheists you tend to be bombarded by them. Maybe if we collect the evidences together, you can make a good argument against religion in general just by using the thought power of theists themselves.

It's sort of a tai-chi style debating method; use the strength of your opponents against them.

 

[Anachronous Rex]

Re: Scientific And Historical Evidence That Religion is True

When he pondered upon creation, Ohrmazd saw by His clear vision that the Evil Spirit would never turn from the Assault; the Assault would not be made powerless except through creation; creation could not develop except through time; but if He created time, Ahriman's creation too would develop. And having no other course, in order to make the Assault powerless, He created time.

Clearly describes the creation of time as distinct from the creation of energy, as confirmed in Big Bang Theory.

 

[Story]

Re: Scientific And Historical Evidence That Religion is True

When he pondered upon creation, Ohrmazd saw by His clear vision that the Evil Spirit would never turn from the Assault; the Assault would not be made powerless except through creation; creation could not develop except through time; but if He created time, Ahriman's creation too would develop. And having no other course, in order to make the Assault powerless, He created time.

Clearly describes the creation of time as distinct from the creation of energy, as confirmed in Big Bang Theory.

 

[lrkun]

Re: Scientific And Historical Evidence That Religion is True

Notice I didn't mention which religion?

Yes, any religion. I'm curious as to what scientific or historical evidence there is to prove any religion. I'm not too bothered if it's phony or not (As long as it's not obviously phony).

A few things have happened lately that have got me thinking. Every time I talk to Christians about my atheism, they give me evidence of their religion with the historicity of the Bible or some anecdote they care to share, so I just want to have a collection of anecdotes and evidences of other religions to pass back.

The basic idea is, the more we prove every religion, the more we disprove every religion.

Evidence against evolution doesn't count. Evidence against evolution isn't proof of any particular religion.

I'll start.

Book of Mormon Proofs

Testimony and Evidence that the Moon was Split by Muhammed (Also a picture of the split moon today )

Nihon Shoki - Chronicles of Japan (A book which historians and archaeologists use to determine the history of Japan, despite it's Shinto-mythological beginnings.)

What do you mean when you say religion is true? True in what sense? Do you mean to say that the claims it makes is true? My reason for asking is that we need to limit our topic in a sense that we can speculate whether or not religion is true in a certain sense. For example, are their scientific or testable evidence that supports a story in the bible, koran, or any holy book. Is this the sense that you mean?

I don't follow when you say that the more we prove every religion the more we disprove it. Maybe the more we disprove religious claims, the easier it is to convince other people.

 

[Story]

Re: Scientific And Historical Evidence That Religion is True

Well I specifically mean historical texts or archaeological findings in support of any of the historical claims of religions. Especially polytheistic ones.

The thing about it is that they all tend to be extremely ambiguous pseudo-scientific nonsense that doesn't really add up. I'd like to be able to expose people spouting this kind of nonsense to all the other flavours of it that's out there. If every contradictory religion is proven using the same logic then no religion is proven using that logic.

 

[lrkun]

Re: Scientific And Historical Evidence That Religion is True

Well I specifically mean historical texts or archaeological findings in support of any of the historical claims of religions. Especially polytheistic ones.

The thing about it is that they all tend to be extremely ambiguous pseudo-scientific nonsense that doesn't really add up. I'd like to be able to expose people spouting this kind of nonsense to all the other flavours of it that's out there. If every contradictory religion is proven using the same logic then no religion is proven using that logic.

An easier alternative is to prove the claims of a religion or disprove such. ^-^

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Re: Scientific And Historical Evidence That Religion is True

Maybe, I do have the smallest hope that this may wake up some people, but to be honest I'd just like a bit of an arsenal to blabber back when people blabber theirs at me. I'm also interested in seeing if we'll actually see someone use the exact same logic that would debunk their claim to debunk another claim while claiming their claim is true. I know some of us have seen this done before, but I'm simply interested in seeing it repeated and demonstrated.

Hear what TruthfulChristian had to say to DonExodus2 about the Magic Sandwich...

 

[lrkun]

Re: Scientific And Historical Evidence That Religion is True

Maybe, I do have the smallest hope that this may wake up some people, but to be honest I'd just like a bit of an arsenal to blabber back when people blabber theirs at me. I'm also interested in seeing if we'll actually see someone use the exact same logic that would debunk their claim to debunk another claim while claiming their claim is true. I know some of us have seen this done before, but I'm simply interested in seeing it repeated and demonstrated.

Hear what TruthfulChristian had to say to DonExodus2 about the Magic Sandwich...

TC didn't know how to answer the question. Imagine, it's his usual question and he doesn't know how to address the issue. Hehe.

 

[Resident Dead Man]

Re: Scientific And Historical Evidence That Religion is True

If all lies can be considered historical evidence then I guess religion is true.

 

[Dragan Glas]

Re: Scientific And Historical Evidence That Religion is True

Greetings,

Scott Atran's books are generally about this subject - his "In Gods We Trust" explores why we believe in God(s) and the reason for the existence of religions. It, and some of his other ones, may be of interest/help.

Kindest regards,

James

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

Re: Scientific And Historical Evidence That Religion is True

Now now -
just because it's Religion doesn't necessarily mean that it's stance is a one-or-none deal. I'm a Pagan, and the inherent logic within my faith is that all Gods/Goddesses/Entities/Spirits exist in one form or another, varying upon several factors as to how they behave and so on.
This technique will only soften the major world religions that seem to be hard set on being the one-and-only-true religion in the game, but it would strengthen anyone who's paradigm is Pantheistic in nature (such as Pagans).



Good luck, however. I'll be watching this thread for updates.

 

[lrkun]

Re: Scientific And Historical Evidence That Religion is True

Now now -
just because it's Religion doesn't necessarily mean that it's stance is a one-or-none deal. I'm a Pagan, and the inherent logic within my faith is that all Gods/Goddesses/Entities/Spirits exist in one form or another, varying upon several factors as to how they behave and so on.
This technique will only soften the major world religions that seem to be hard set on being the one-and-only-true religion in the game, but it would strengthen anyone who's paradigm is Pantheistic in nature (such as Pagans).



Good luck, however. I'll be watching this thread for updates.

You tickled my curiousity. If it's okay, note this is not an order, so you don't have to do this, but if you are free and willing to do so, please share your Scientific and Historical evidence which supports your faith. Only if you are so willing.

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

Re: Scientific And Historical Evidence That Religion is True

The paradox here is that whenever I begin this conversation it derails the thread into an infinite train wreck.

Here we go-
http://forums.leagueofreason.org.uk/viewtopic.php?t=2926

This thread is not about my beliefs, however - so let us keep it flame-free, please.

 

[lrkun]

Re: Scientific And Historical Evidence That Religion is True

It depends.
Pagan Gods are all associated with a force, usually. It totally depends on the Pagan on this one. The broadest description of anything "Spiritual" is an Embodyment of a Force of Nature. IE: There IS a Fairie at the bottom of the Rose pile. There IS a Dragon in that volcano. There's a fight in the air duiring a heavy storm. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Some people worship what's called "the Watchtowers" which are basically the Elements. Alot of people simply orship the elements. It depends on the basic outlook of the spacific person wether they glorify them as Gods or not. I've met someone who worships absolute Chaos and tries to make order out of it (I didn't understand it either).


Personally, I believe that all the Gods exist or did exist at some point - it varies on following of the spacific God or Goddess (if they have a large enough following, they have more power from that belief in them).

EDIT:
I had an interesting discussion one time. All Spirits, Gods, etc (from many Pagans' stance) are fueled by raw faith in their existance. IT was hypothetical and sarcastic (I hope) discussion about the almighty Ice-Box Guardian, who lurked behind the beefaroni. If someone THEORETICALLY believed it to the serious tone of a Spirit - the Ice-Box Guardian, his mighty Chillyness, who lurks the Beefaroni and defends against freezerburn, would come to form as a Spirit.

Well, it's not that bad, it's actually intuitive. According to the facts, your belief in a god is based on things that in the old days has never been explained via science. It's also specific or particular, rather than an all seeing sky daddy. The worship of chaos sounds interesting to me, I think that person should be exposed to chaos math.

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

Re: Scientific And Historical Evidence That Religion is True

Well, it's not that bad, it's actually intuitive. According to the facts, your belief in a god is based on things that in the old days has never been explained via science. It's also specific or particular, rather than an all seeing sky daddy. The worship of chaos sounds interesting to me, I think that person should be exposed to chaos math.

Why, thank you...
I think that post was the response with the least hubris in the whole thread.

 

[PeanutbutterChilli]

Re: Scientific And Historical Evidence That Religion is True

There are quite a few islamic apologetics that are based around reinterepting the Qu'arn so it looks like it predicted all sorts of scientific advances such as this one on embryonic development