saudi arabia atheist....

[salko7]

Hi there....

im a student in saudia arabia , a male 18 of age, i live in the east side of the country in a place called Al-Qatif (Qateef)
this place is the part of saudi arabia witch is Shia or as some suny's like to call (Jma'ah)

i have been living the life of a muslim most of my young years , believing in the Koran believing in the (Hadeeth) and what ever my parents told me (in the case my mother) as a child i had no choice since i had no understandings of life and we dont start teaching natural science to little children i had to rely on my parents , as i saw them older then me and lived this life and were able to grasp understanding of it... so by default it would make what ever they say to me is true , and this was the first mistake i have done that would lead me to believe and God (allah) and the story of the religion of islam

at first every thing in it seemed great nothing was wrong even the stuff that normal logic or even simple "gut" human understanding can see as absurd , but since it was "carved" in me to say what ever the prophet does or the Koran says is right i never gave it a second look
tho i must admit at that time i felt that it was at least some of it was a true was of peace and not some sort of organized crime

but the main thing is how could some person in a country not just a society built on this religion be able to break free of it ?
and i have to say i am not the only one who is not a muslim here, quite a few are if you would like to say are "less religious"
it might be human nature to break from something that seems wrong in their lives, its normal for a human to try and be happy in the way they live , and thats where it starts....

it starts with dissatisfaction of owns life , maybe its from they way i live my life? , maybe its a disorder ?, maybe its the weather ?
what ever it is at that time the thought of religion had the negative effect on my life did not come to my mind
as i thought it can bring the Good in life and the After life , tho i have to say i was a bit of a autistic child
not from Autism but from my way of living mostly alone or trying to avoid people even when trying to talk with other i found it hard to connect cause i didnt understand some social matters or my interests are not the same..

but i had a love of understanding the world
and mostly the mind , i would ask "why would a person get angry?" ,"why do people kill each other?"
of course religion would mark as these are bad people but i didnt like that answer
i just had a "gut" feeling theres more to it cause then i would ask "why are they bad?"
so i began reading about psychology and from the first time i say what it was i loved it and knew this is exactly what i was looking for
understanding what goes in the human mind + functions of the brain helped me understand "why people __________?"

this opened a new door for me in where i was for the first time able to criticize not the religion but God
a god thats been called loving , understanding, all knowing.... and lets not forget the MAKER and the person who judges people
i can only ask "Why would God with all the understanding of how we are made be able to judge or label people as bad or good?"
it seemed to me like God was not understanding of how humans work, for me after understanding just a bit of psychology i could not look at a person and say he or she is bad but that there are reasons for why they are that way and we might be able to know them
and maybe even fix the problem

this caused me to think about what god thought is bad and/or sinful that can relate to reasons that are understandable to why a person does such a thing and i do mean any thing from drinking (that religion finds bad) to rape (that any human would say its bad)
tho is the person who rapes bad ? isnt there a reason for why that person would do such an act ? i might know it atm but that does not mean i would say that person is bad because i have no other explanation of it..

and thats where god comes in, God knowing of every thing and the reason of a person making such an act or even any act as god made humans the way they are and how they process inputs and come with outputs
i like to look at humans as "equations" you can predict some of what they would do by knowing the equation
and science ofc never fails to show us that we can know it and even tinker with it to make it better
while god who knows it before us and has the power to change it at will chose to throw it in fire (how lazy can you be?)

ofc the change was not swift, from religious believer to a person who wants to see nothing but this control over human lives end
and allow people to live their lives happy without fear of whats normal and in their nature be, its a road full of depression and pain
and it gets even much sadder as you see how much this religion has stolen from you but as you look and understand life that stolen part seems to not matter any more as a meaning to life comes as god goes no longer my meaning in life is to be a slave but i am free,
free to gaze at how amazing this world turned to be without this maker to look and wounder at how it all came to be and maybe smile at how i could of just let it go past me without ever understanding some part of it....
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i started this topic in means of asking if you had any question about islam
as a person who grew up in saudi arabia i have stuff to share about it but i want to know what YOU want to know
but i think that will need a new topic as it seems i just wrote my whole life it seems....
let me know if you have stuff to ask and i'll start a new topic

 

[Epicion]

I guess I'll be the first to comment.

Your a muslim apostate, so am I. What you described about your life is similar to my feelings except I found the truth through studying biology and chemistry rather than Psychology. Otherwise there is little difference in your experience compared to mine.

I've started a topic regarding Islam before, but the atheists here lack any interest. Most of them follow the same rulings they've followed for Christianity and relate it to Islam. When they find out that it does not work the same way, the reaction is somewhat defensive.

In anycase. I'll pm you my msn and skype and we can chat.

I'd welcome you like I used to do for many muslims who converted to Islam, but I don't consider Atheism to be a united group of a similar magnitude. I'd say enjoy the new realization you have achieved as very few people get to fight away from it without trying very hard.

One last thing, For now you might feel bitter about religion. You may want to attack and relinquish other people from it and see it as a form of evil. This feeling will pass eventually and you'll realise that some things are not meant for everyone. People will always do some gymnastics and dodge issues by "interpretation". Happens in Islam as well, introduced Evolution to someone, stated it as fact and provided evidence. But the person replied "I don't believe humans came that way". You can't make someone believe truth and facts, its a psychological disease that has to be tackled as such. You can't hope to reason through normal conversation

Anyway. thank you for your post, and welcome to the League Of Reason

-L

 

[ladiesman391]

Yes, Welcome to the League of Reason salko7.

I've started a topic regarding Islam before, but the atheists here lack any interest.

I'm interested and I'm an atheist here.

tho i have to say i was a bit of a autistic child not from Autism but from my way of living mostly alone or trying to avoid people even when trying to talk with other i found it hard to connect cause i didnt understand some social matters or my interests are not the same..

Were you clinically diagnosed with Autism salko7? Or is that just a name someone uneducated called you?

it might be human nature to break from something that seems wrong in their lives

I believe we are all born with different brains and they all work differently to others and some use it in different ways to others. As you are studying psychology I'd love for you to have a read through one of my postings and contribute what you think to it, this is link: http://forums.leagueofreason.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1403

You may want to attack and relinquish other people from it and see it as a form of evil. This feeling will pass eventually and you'll realise that some things are not meant for everyone. People will always do some gymnastics and dodge issues by "interpretation". Happens in Islam as well, introduced Evolution to someone, stated it as fact and provided evidence. But the person replied "I don't believe humans came that way". You can't make someone believe truth and facts, its a psychological disease that has to be tackled as such. You can't hope to reason through normal conversation

I agree with you there Epicion.

 

[Netheralian]

I've started a topic regarding Islam before, but the atheists here lack any interest. Most of them follow the same rulings they've followed for Christianity and relate it to Islam. When they find out that it does not work the same way, the reaction is somewhat defensive.

There is a good reason that most of us lack any interest - mostly because one pile of horse shit tastes much the same as the next pile, even if one horse eats oats and the other grass. Its still horse shit...

I'm surprised some have been defensive - I guess its a typical response to being told you are wrong in most circumstances. We like to think we are beyond such things being logical, rational thinkers, but I guess not!


Anyway - Welcome Salko7... Whilst I really am not interested in your ex-religion, I am interested in how you are treated because of your new-found freedom of thought. Does anyone yet know? It is something you have to hide? What's the worst that is likely to happen?

Edit: One other question i do have - how many people do you think are non believers in your region? Do you think there are more than is obvious and are they perhaps in hiding for fear of persecution? I think it would be sad to find there are actually a large number of non-believers around (enough to make a difference to the way the country/region works) but are unable to make the difference because they don't know the others exist... I don't think that is necessarily the case at the moment, but I suspect it may be one day...

 

[salko7]

ladiesman391 :
i'll read the topic and come back to you i'll first respond to Netheralian

Netheralian:

Anyway - Welcome Salko7... Whilst I really am not interested in your ex-religion, I am interested in how you are treated because of your new-found freedom of thought. Does anyone yet know? It is something you have to hide? What's the worst that is likely to happen?

yes many of my class mates and teachers know about this and have been talking to me about it but it was not for too long
as it was the last week or so of school, they did not treat me bad mainly cause of them being shia its a different story when your sunni
they might take you to jail or even kill you tho some of them dont agree on killing or even having punishment

my school mates still talk to me like a normal person discarding what i believe in tho i dont know if its that they knew me for 12 years
that lets them say "ok we know him he might just be having some problems"
and i understand that they try to invite me to "open my eyes" and see the truth that they see in islam as they want whats good for me
they offered what to them is the right thing even one of my teachers who was from my view the most open minded was suggesting for me to see a "special" shiek or in other terms an open minded and has "knowledge" , i did not go cause i knew it would be a waste of time some part of me says i should of went just to see what kind of arguments hes going to put on the table

other then my class mates my parents know about it but my father is not so religious or lets say muslim as i did not have that talk with him yet but im planing to have it with him and see where he stands in the other hand my mother is annoyed by it but ofc shes a mother who loves her child so she just hopes that god would help me

Edit: One other question i do have - how many people do you think are non believers in your region? Do you think there are more than is obvious and are they perhaps in hiding for fear of persecution? I think it would be sad to find there are actually a large number of non-believers around (enough to make a difference to the way the country/region works) but are unable to make the difference because they don't know the others exist... I don't think that is necessarily the case at the moment, but I suspect it may be one day...

this is something i ask my self alot its hard to say since many try no to show it i my self will not show it directly ofc or to people i cant trust , lets not forget people here are judgmental and word spreads fast and might get even corrupted
as in turning from "he just does not believe in god" to "hes an evil and bad person"
do i think there are people who want to change how they live their lives by removing religion yes...
but its hard for us in this region cause being a shia society we are discriminate against by the sunni

some of the sunni believe that shia are not true muslims even some believe that killing 10 of us will grant them dinner with mohmmad in heaven... they believe that we eat humans and have tails so in short some of them demonize us and this is not hidden from the public its clear as day light that the "mofty" him self says it but they cant act it out cause other muslim countries will speak loudly about it just like what happend in meka , some killing happend there and many were outraged at how could saudi arabia let that happen
it was not random people who were killing but govrment workers stabed people in the back most if not all are shia
and the continue this back here in Qatif in an area called awamiah , they got the riot trucks all over the place taking in kids who are less the 15 years old but at least they let them go without interrogation , some women were hit houses broken into and power was shut down (i live near this area so the effect of the power out did shut the power to our house) and after that they just had checkpoints to check people who come and go from the area ... the story has more of it but i think this is enough

i could mention what happend 30 years ago but i said alot

hope this gave you a view how the region is doing , but i think i over dramatized it a bit as this is not the daily life here but it shows how this region has a hard time being in the country none the less be an atheist in it...

 

[Netheralian]

All I can say is Fuck... You see bits on TV and I'm sure you never really appreciate it until your in the middle of it - but I am quite happy just to hear your account and go no closer. I really hope for everyone's sake that the religious extremism eventually dissipates.

I was born into a family with no religious convictions at all - so I grew up with none of this indoctrination. It always surprised me when young people (18-20) were on TV from time to time telling about their love for God etc. I could never work out why they didn't feel like absolute idiots talking about this stuff because I couldn't conceive that anyone could believe so strongly. Then I hear stories like yours which throws some of these Christians into perspective and I realise that their convictions were pretty pathetic - although given the right environment I don't for a second think that they wouldn't be similar.

 

[e2iPi]

I've started a topic regarding Islam before, but the atheists here lack any interest. Most of them follow the same rulings they've followed for Christianity and relate it to Islam. When they find out that it does not work the same way, the reaction is somewhat defensive.

You've piqued my interest, Epicion. How does Islam differ from Christianity or any other religion?

-1

 

[salko7]

All I can say is Fuck... You see bits on TV and I'm sure you never really appreciate it until your in the middle of it - but I am quite happy just to hear your account and go no closer. I really hope for everyone's sake that the religious extremism eventually dissipates.

I was born into a family with no religious convictions at all - so I grew up with none of this indoctrination. It always surprised me when young people (18-20) were on TV from time to time telling about their love for God etc. I could never work out why they didn't feel like absolute idiots talking about this stuff because I couldn't conceive that anyone could believe so strongly. Then I hear stories like yours which throws some of these Christians into perspective and I realise that their convictions were pretty pathetic - although given the right environment I don't for a second think that they wouldn't be similar.

it look at it the same way
when talking to my school mates about some topics i cant believe what they were telling
stuff i cant believe a teen male would be able to say about sex
we all know teens have a high sexual need , but here they are able to make it look bad enough for them to say "what im feeling is bad"
ofc this is from the misinformation they are given you wont believe some of the stuff they told me...
to put it short i was too shocked by what they were saying my brain numbed and i started mumbling "no thats wrong....no"

 

[Epicion]

You've piqued my interest, Epicion. How does Islam differ from Christianity or any other religion?

Just the overall mentality of what God is. It's different in Christianity compared to Islam. God in Christianity can be described as 3 parts but still part of ONE main group. Trinity forexample.

But some christians don't believe that,

Islam just has a series of gymnastics the can do which Christians can not. A muslim won't say " I don't believe in that" once you have them cornered. They will say " I don't know arabic, it may mean something else" or "the translation is wrong, not the Quran" etc etc.

Quran these days relies on "scientific miracles" these days to convert people, to tackle them in itself is something worth researching by itself.

The concept of Hadith and Quran and how they correlate is also important. Not to mention the Quran is a "direct" word of God and not "inspired" as the books in the bible are.

But, don't get me wrong. It does not validate it in the slightest. I am simply trying to suggest that the way to perhaps address the religion may be better suited from a different approach than Christianity ^_^

-L

 

[e2iPi]

They will say " I don't know arabic, it may mean something else" or "the translation is wrong, not the Quran" etc etc.

Just replace Arabic with Hebrew or Aramaic and Christians spout the same nonsense.

Quran these days relies on "scientific miracles" these days to convert people, to tackle them in itself is something worth researching by itself.

I've never heard anything about this before, could you give me some more information or examples? Sounds interesting.

The concept of Hadith and Quran and how they correlate is also important

I'm not the least bit familiar with this concept at all. Is there a brief explanation you could give?

But, don't get me wrong. It does not validate it in the slightest. I am simply trying to suggest that the way to perhaps address the religion may be better suited from a different approach than Christianity

I have yet to see any evidence which validates any religion. It does seem as if there is a fundamental difference between the average Muslim and the average Christian, but I had always chalked it up to a much more in depth indoctrination process. A more closely held belief that allows for more mental gymnastics in order to make it seem logical.

I am interested in learning more, thanks for taking the time

 

[Epicion]

Thankyou for your interest, It's seldom seen someone to have a keen interest in this.

I'll elaborate further on some points and also provide links for further research if necassary for the "scientific miracles" part

I've never heard anything about this before, could you give me some more information or examples? Sounds interesting.

http://www.scienceislam.com/
http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/food_index.html
http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html

Also in video form

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckMwbVmMkIw

Basically Zakir Naik is a Islamic Apologetic who tends to use science to prove his points, Any videos with him speaking will probably give more info regarding the "scientific miracles"

I'm not the least bit familiar with this concept at all. Is there a brief explanation you could give?

Islam actually consists of two different books rather than one. The Bible is basically stories written by different authors, it contains "the word of God" such as in Exodus etc where God himself speaks, and it has the parables of Jesus and what he said.

The HADITH, is basically "The sayings of the Prophet" e.g anything Prophet Muhammad had said, to his disciples or to any people etc is written down. The way Hadith works in relation to the Quran is, in the Quran it says the Prophet is sent to explain the Quran, Therefore everything he said was relevant. The Prophet speaks of killing for apostasy in the Hadith, but this is not written in the Quran. Reason for that was, before it could be implemented into the Quran, The Prophet died. In fear of changing "the word of God" it was unchanged.

Also, The Quran was not a continous flow of writing. There were many verses removed from it, many times it was edited at the time when Prophet Muhammad was alive. So, the Hadith tells the story about how the revelation or VERSE in the Quran came. E.g a story happens and Allah reveals the answer. The answer is written in the Quran.

So, in relation. The Quran is the main text with concise and concentrated messages whereas the Hadith is the supplementary form of book which accompanies the Quran and fills in missing bits.

There is also a third part of Islam called "Tafseer" which is basically commentary given by the disciples of Prophet Muhammad on each verse, how it came and what it meant. If its ambigious that is. The Hadith is differentiated in terms of strong hadith and weak hadith. Strong is just the oral tradition of passing over stories and if you can trace it back to the Prophet Muhammad telling something, then its "strong". If there is a missing link, its "weak". But, it is largely just oral traditions. Not to mention it was collected by a few men quite a lot of years after the death of the prophet, so fake ones got in along with real ones. Or they simply got manipulated with time.

No one knows for certain, so this part of religious following which is compulsory is somewhat on shaky grounds just by the sounds of the source of information and where it actually originates.

That's a brief explanation that is just an introduction to the difference which I see between Christianity and Islam.

Let me know if you have any more questions. I'm sure Saiko7 would be happy to put his input in as well ^_^

-L

 

[e2iPi]

Thanks Epicion.
The "scientific miracles" read much like some Christian apologists who try to pull scientific meaning from vague references, but some of it was interesting.
Your explanation of the Hadith was much appreciated. That is an aspect of Islam of which I was completely ignorant.

-1