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Roleplaying Apologetics

DeistPaladin

New Member
arg-fallbackName="DeistPaladin"/>
Back when I was a kid, I learned this silly song during a summer camp:
One day in the middle of the night,
two dead boys got up to fight.
Back-to-back, they faced each other.
Drew their swords and shot each other.
Two deaf policemen heard this noise.
Came to kill the two dead boys.
If you don't believe this lie is true,
you can ask the blind man; he saw it too.

The contradictions were part of the silliness of the song but imagine the passage appeared in the Bible. Would that phase Christian apologists who insist that there are no contradictions in their sacred scripture? I'm going to role-play an apologist now based on the arguments I've heard in the past.

*ahem*

In verse one, the term "day" is often used to mean a period of time when the sun is up, in contrast to "night" but it also means a 24-hour period. This 24-hour period includes the nighttime. Consequently, we can conclude that the event of the demonically possessed dead bodies occurred at night. No contradictions so far.

Many fundy skeptics often laugh at verse two about two dead boys getting up to fight. This reveals their bias toward naturalism. However, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because you may not have seen demons inhabit a corpse and reanimate it, doesn't mean such things could never happen. For those who believe in the holy scripture, it's not so difficult to accept. Besides, there is evidence of the supernatural in history. Such events are recorded in sacred scripture, our historical accounts of these ancient times.

In verse three, the demon-possessed corpses first lined themselves back-to-back in mockery of traditional pistol duels. Then they turned to face each other. It doesn't say, as many fundy atheists maintain, that they did both at the same time.

In verse four, they drew their swords and, with their other hand, drew a pistol to shoot each other. No contradiction.

There are varying degrees of deafness. Gunshots are loud enough so even the partially deaf could have heard them. These officers arrived on the scene and attempted to put down the demonically possessed corpses. Again, slaying the undead is something the fundy skeptics will scoff at but this is their bigotry in favor of naturalism.

Much has been made of verse seven by scoffers who like to claim the Bible openly admits to a lie. In fact, the word "lie" is actually based on the translation of the ancient Shladervian language in which the passage was written. The word is "shablavablacka" which could, in some context, be "lie" and, in others, "legend" or "fable". In this case, it is a recounting of a story of legend which happens, in this case, to be true.

Of course, the blind man couldn't see but he's still an eye-witness to the account, so to speak. He could hear the movement of the corpses and the subsequent fight, and therefore adds to the credibility of the story. He's what we call an "embarrassing witness". If the passage were a lie, they would have created a more compelling witness than a blind man. Consequently, the fact that one of our star witnesses is a blind man only adds to the credibility of the story.

So you see, there are no contradictions.

[End Role-Playing Exercise].

The point here is the core logical fallacy in apologetics is the pre-conceived notion. If you start with the assumption that something is true, you can come up with all manner of flimsy rationalizations to work your way toward the desired conclusion.
 
arg-fallbackName="Avatra1"/>
DeistPaladin

Back when I was a kid, I learned this silly song during a summer camp:


One day in the middle of the night,
two dead boys got up to fight.
Back-to-back, they faced each other.
Drew their swords and shot each other.
Two deaf policemen heard this noise.
Came to kill the two dead boys.
If you don't believe this lie is true,
you can ask the blind man; he saw it too.



The contradictions were part of the silliness of the song but imagine the passage appeared in the Bible. Would that phase Christian apologists who insist that there are no contradictions in their sacred scripture? I'm going to role-play an apologist now based on the arguments I've heard in the past.

*ahem*

In verse one, the term "day" is often used to mean a period of time when the sun is up, in contrast to "night" but it also means a 24-hour period. This 24-hour period includes the nighttime. Consequently, we can conclude that the event of the demonically possessed dead bodies occurred at night. No contradictions so far.

Fun role playing experiment, I'll give some points that I think shows some errors.

1. Provide proof that undead exist. (Pope ain't undead, he's close to a lich though)
2. Provide proof that demons exist.
3. Provide proof that dead bodies can be demonically possessed.
Many fundy skeptics often laugh at verse two about two dead boys getting up to fight. This reveals their bias toward naturalism. However, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because you may not have seen demons inhabit a corpse and reanimate it, doesn't mean such things could never happen. For those who believe in the holy scripture, it's not so difficult to accept. Besides, there is evidence of the supernatural in history. Such events are recorded in sacred scripture, our historical accounts of these ancient times.

4. Argument based on Ad hominem.
5. Absence of evidence IS evidence of absence.
"I don't have a million dollars, therefor it would be stupid of me to act like I did."

6 .Argument from ignorance, so far there has been no proof of.
1. The Undead.
2. Demons.
3. Demons capable to posses dead bodies.

7. provide proof of evidence for supernatural in historical records, possible false dichotomy.

8. Naturalism works.

Of course it doesn't rule out the possibility of there being proof of said things, just that up on till now, no proof has been satisfying enough.
In verse three, the demon-possessed corpses first lined themselves back-to-back in mockery of traditional pistol duels. Then they turned to face each other. It doesn't say, as many fundy atheists maintain, that they did both at the same time.

See 2, 3.
In verse four, they drew their swords and, with their other hand, drew a pistol to shoot each other. No contradiction.

There are varying degrees of deafness. Gunshots are loud enough so even the partially deaf could have heard them. These officers arrived on the scene and attempted to put down the demonically possessed corpses. Again, slaying the undead is something the fundy skeptics will scoff at but this is their bigotry in favor of naturalism.

Let's say that the officers heard the gunshot (they both suffered from a slight deafness) you still have to provide proof for.

1. 2, 3,

Naturalism works.
Much has been made of verse seven by scoffers who like to claim the Bible openly admits to a lie. In fact, the word "lie" is actually based on the translation of the ancient Shladervian language in which the passage was written. The word is "shablavablacka" which could, in some context, be "lie" and, in others, "legend" or "fable". In this case, it is a recounting of a story of legend which happens, in this case, to be true.

9. Well can't tell about lies, there is however a few contradictions in the bible.
Of course, the blind man couldn't see but he's still an eye-witness to the account, so to speak. He could hear the movement of the corpses and the subsequent fight, and therefore adds to the credibility of the story. He's what we call an "embarrassing witness". If the passage were a lie, they would have created a more compelling witness than a blind man. Consequently, the fact that one of our star witnesses is a blind man only adds to the credibility of the story.

Well he would only be able to say that something happened, he couldn't be able to give out detailed information about the events, well unless the police shouted but.

Please provide proof for
1.2.3.

So you see, there are no contradictions.

The "possible" argument would be a baseless assertion until you have provided proof for.

1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.

(in the case of 8 you need to prove that naturalism is not reliable)

[End Role-Playing Exercise].
The point here is the core logical fallacy in apologetics is the pre-conceived notion. If you start with the assumption that something is true, you can come up with all manner of flimsy rationalizations to work your way toward the desired conclusion.

Yep =)

That's possible why no skeptic, Atheist etc take them seriously.

Well speaking for myself anyway.
 
arg-fallbackName="DeistPaladin"/>
Argument based on Ad hominem.

I'm not sure that the "you assume naturalism" or "you have a bias" is technically an ad hominem. Ad hominem is dismissing the opponent without an argument. You can question someone's bias, honesty, credibility, etc without committing the ad hominem. It's only a logical fallacy if your insult is a replacement for an argument.

The specific logical fallacy here, I think, is that it's an attempt to shift the burden of proof. Accusing the skeptic of a bias in favor of naturalism (implying the whole "naturalism is an alternate religion" canard) is an attempt to force the skeptic to prove that the supernatural isn't real. The proper burden of proof belongs, as you've pointed out, with the proponent of the supernatural, not with the skeptic.

I may be missing something here. If the "you assume naturalism" argument advanced so often by apologists is an ad hominem, I'd like to know how.
 
arg-fallbackName="Avatra1"/>
DeistPaladin said:
Argument based on Ad hominem.

I'm not sure that the "you assume naturalism" or "you have a bias" is technically an ad hominem. Ad hominem is dismissing the opponent without an argument. You can question someone's bias, honesty, credibility, etc without committing the ad hominem. It's only a logical fallacy if your insult is a replacement for an argument.

The specific logical fallacy here, I think, is that it's an attempt to shift the burden of proof. Accusing the skeptic of a bias in favor of naturalism (implying the whole "naturalism is an alternate religion" canard) is an attempt to force the skeptic to prove that the supernatural isn't real. The proper burden of proof belongs, as you've pointed out, with the proponent of the supernatural, not with the skeptic.

I may be missing something here. If the "you assume naturalism" argument advanced so often by apologists is an ad hominem, I'd like to know how.

Well, I think it could fall under "Ad hominem / Fallacy Personal Attack" like

"You don't accept the supernatural because you are a naturalist!"

Since in the example you gave, you didn't actually provide anything other then a "snide" remark against skeptics pointing out that they are "fundies" for not accepting the claims of the supernatural.

However I do agree that it can be a "touch and go" thing to call out, especially if you do not provide an explanation as to why you think it is a Ad hominem.

Like I failed to do :D

There is a much more usual version that goes like.

"You don't accept the bible because you want to sin!" or "You don't accept the bible because you worship Satan!"

Which is quite perplexing if you think about it for a second or two.

No, not really, usually something like that comes from an ordinary theist on the brink of mental collapse due to having all other options fail.

Or maybe not mental collapse, giving myself a way to much of an ego boost, when they realize that the arguments they thought would explain everything is proven to explain absolutely nothing.
 
arg-fallbackName="DeistPaladin"/>
Since in the example you gave, you didn't actually provide anything other then a "snide" remark against skeptics pointing out that they are "fundies" for not accepting the claims of the supernatural.

Why thank you. You just let me know I was effectively duplicating the style of argument in my role-playing. :D

Seriously, that's all you're likely to hear when they put that argument forward. The goal is to try to muddy the waters by suggesting that naturalism is a leap of faith (or the "it takes faith to be an atheist" line). I've seen the same thing done with evolution. Jack Chick is particularly fond of the "evolution is a religion" argument.
"You don't accept the bible because you want to sin!" or "You don't accept the bible because you worship Satan!"

Hm, I wonder what logical fallacy this is. I've heard these arguments before, even from supposedly respectable apologists (particularly the former). In context, the objective usually isn't to make an argument as to ascribe motivation.

I think the theist is well aware of how "comforting" it is to believe in a friendly sky-god that will watch over you in life and take care of you in death (indeed, this is one of the touted benefits of faith). At some point, they have to wonder why anyone would want to deny such a thing. The obvious (and correct) conclusion is that we're facing reality as it is and they're clinging to a comforting illusion. Needless to say, this is not a desirable conclusion, so they need to invent a more nefarious motivation for us.

This logical fallacy, whatever the proper term may be, is especially annoying. How can you have a rational discussion with someone who claims to know what you're thinking better than you do and accuses you of "lying" if you try to tell them otherwise?

Although "you assume naturalism" follows the same pattern, the motive behind it is usually different. Here we have an attempt to shift the burden of proof.

I think the logical fallacies, when used, may overlap a bit so calling which one is what can be tricky. In this case, it's both an ad hominem and an attempt to shift the burden of proof.
 
arg-fallbackName="Lurking_Logic"/>
One day in the middle of the night,
same as op
two dead boys got up to fight.
I feel many take this out of context
the dead part refers to the fact that they are now dead (And a referenced as such from our particular view of the story)
the only logical interpretation is that they were alive at the time but are dead now
Back-to-back, they faced each other.
Back to back
Looking over their shoulders at the other
obviously
Drew their swords and shot each other.
same as op
Two deaf policemen heard this noise.
partially deaf
someone already raised this
Came to kill the two dead boys.
explain the earlier passage of the boys being dead now
If you don't believe this lie is true,
you can ask the blind man; he saw it too.
obviously we don't mean see as a literal interpreation
It is a metaphor for how he was able to identify what happened through his other faculties

of course the version I was raised on (The correct translation lol) omits the policmen as part of the story (Probably added later as a scribal error)
[End Interpretation mode]
Is this better?
 
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