Role Reversal

[MillionSword]

As an experiment, I created another youtube account a few days ago (the name of which shall remain anonymous for now), but on this channel I am masquerading as a fundamentalist YEC. I'm doing this to try and get into the mindset of the YEC and also to see if when I befriend some YECs I can actually get an honest answer about how they feel about what they do. More specifically about the tactics that they KNOW are dishonest.

I left a comment on a prominent YEC's channel (shockofgod (massive douche)) praising him and got a subscription and friend request on the same day, so I'm thinking of becoming friendly with at least him to get some info from their perspective. All I expect, though, is that they lie to each other as well. I haven't been active on that channel in a couple of days though because watching creationist bullshit like nephilimfree and then praising them in the comments is a near unbearable task. One comment I left on a YEC video has gotten quite a bit of attention in the past 3 or 4 days and I just feel a bunch of guilt for every response I get from an atheist.

What do you think? Should I stop causing unwanted strife and encouraging the YECs or should I continue on and see what I get?

 

[Squawk]

Meh, since I started this reply I have deleted it twice. I have split emotions.

On the one hand I hate the impact that creationism has on society, and in particular I hate those who actively lie for doctrine and attempt to warp the minds of the impressionable and vulnerable. I want people to hold rational beliefs, to base belief on evidence, and discrediting the creationists is a good step along the road.

On the other, I dislike deceit.

The question is, which is the lesser of two evils. I suppose it depends how you go about revealing your true intent. If the long term goal is to piss off a lot of creationists then I can't condone it. If the long term goal is to be better at educating and hopefully removing this delusion from people, then I applaud it.

Useful, aint I.

 

[theatheistguy]

Stick it out if you can, and if you want a way out of it, tell them all you saw the light and it looked a lot like Darwin.

 

[MillionSword]

Thing is, one observation I've made is that the finer details of the YECs' actual beliefs are usually ignored as long as they band together against "the atheists", and tend to take only each others' opinions seriously. So if, for example, someone touts a misconception about evolution, I could say "naw, they mean..." etc. And as I set them straight all the while giving the impression that I still don't support it because I have "faith", they're response will indicate whether they really are dishonest or just ignorant. Basically I'll be a YEC who knows all the facts, but "in my heart" they aren't facts for I have been touched by the holy spirit . I aim to educate from within, but as I said, its really painful to even pretend to be a creationist. I get sent videos by this guy who plays christian songs on his guitar, but I can't ignore him 'cause he's "on my side" :x *Sigh* I'll see how long I can go though.

 

[xman]

You're already in and in a good position to experience what most of us never can. Even pretending to be faithful, but understanding the truth is a good example and YECs everywhere would do well to adopt such a position rather than be literalists about their holy books.I say keep at it and if I accidentally criticise you, I'm sorry. I look forward to your updates.

X

 

[connorkimbro]

As an experiment, I created another youtube account a few days ago (the name of which shall remain anonymous for now), but on this channel I am masquerading as a fundamentalist YEC. I'm doing this to try and get into the mindset of the YEC and also to see if when I befriend some YECs I can actually get an honest answer about how they feel about what they do. More specifically about the tactics that they KNOW are dishonest.

I left a comment on a prominent YEC's channel (shockofgod (massive douche)) praising him and got a subscription and friend request on the same day, so I'm thinking of becoming friendly with at least him to get some info from their perspective. All I expect, though, is that they lie to each other as well. I haven't been active on that channel in a couple of days though because watching creationist bullshit like nephilimfree and then praising them in the comments is a near unbearable task. One comment I left on a YEC video has gotten quite a bit of attention in the past 3 or 4 days and I just feel a bunch of guilt for every response I get from an atheist.

What do you think? Should I stop causing unwanted strife and encouraging the YECs or should I continue on and see what I get?

Found you! Are you going to upload videos, or just do what you do via comments, messages, etc?

I'd have to agree with the posters above "educate from within."

 

[borrofburi]

I suppose it depends how you go about revealing your true intent. If the long term goal is to piss off a lot of creationists then I can't condone it.

Pretty much this.

However everyone is talking about the benefits of educating them, what I am far more interested in is their psychology. Do they actually understand evolution and are twisting things however they possibly can to defend creationism, or are they really ignorant? How many are deceived fools and how many are deceitful scumbags? I was a christian once, but I never actively promoted creationism, my position was always that evolution was probably wrong, but even if it wasn't it was just as fitting with god as the formation of snow flakes or granite (god did it, but through this process (with possible exception of humans themselves)), and that I didn't know much about evolution so I couldn't debate the issue but valid or not it wasn't a big deal anyway (because it didn't really change much). So I can understand the christian mindset and some part of creationist mindset, but I don't understand the creationist-flock-leaders and their mindset.

 

[connorkimbro]

I suppose it depends how you go about revealing your true intent. If the long term goal is to piss off a lot of creationists then I can't condone it.

Pretty much this.

However everyone is talking about the benefits of educating them, what I am far more interested in is their psychology. Do they actually understand evolution and are twisting things however they possibly can to defend creationism, or are they really ignorant? How many are deceived fools and how many are deceitful scumbags? I was a christian once, but I never actively promoted creationism, my position was always that evolution was probably wrong, but even if it wasn't it was just as fitting with god as the formation of snow flakes or granite (god did it, but through this process (with possible exception of humans themselves)), and that I didn't know much about evolution so I couldn't debate the issue but valid or not it wasn't a big deal anyway (because it didn't really change much). So I can understand the christian mindset and some part of creationist mindset, but I don't understand the creationist-flock-leaders and their mindset.

As a former YEC believer, I can tell you that I fully believed in YEC and thought that evolutionists were just mis-guided. Of course, I was very ignorant. But alot of the stuff the teach sounds very legitimate/convincing to one who doesn't examine both sides of the "debate" honestly, and combined with the absolute faith in the bible, it's very tempting to grab onto anything that seems legitimate.

So I know that I personally wasn't being intellectually dishonest, I was just ignorant and mis-guided. I think MOST YEC are this way. As for the "leaders" (Hovind, Ham, and many others) I'm undecided. It's possible that they are just exceptionally deluded as well, but some of them at least appear to have a firm enough grasp on some scientific concepts that it's possible that they're being intentionally deceptive.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

MillionSword, I'm surprised you didn't continue further until you got some interesting results before announcing it to others on this site. While I can appreciate attempts to educate as a trusted member, something none of us can do since they'd never take us seriously, I'm not entirely sure how productive it will be. However, it's a fascinating experiment and I hope you can keep it up for a good long time!

I'm more interested in their psychology. Do they have any capacity for critically analyzing their own arguments or are they trying to comfort themselves with any rationalization that sounds vaguely plausible? As borrofburi suggests, is it naiveté or is it willful deceit?

Even further, do they possibly know that they are wrong but continue to promote their beliefs because they think the social outcome will be better or are they prepared to deny reality with their faith no matter how much is proven?

I will say that when you do end this you should never reveal yourself or what you were doing. Simply discontinue and abandon the account...

 

[Marcus]

I don't think what you're doing is inherently wrong, but it might do more harm than good if you're not careful. The most important moment of your charade will be the end, and you need to start thinking of two exit strategies sooner rather than later, one to use when you decide to come clean (which, ethically, you must do sooner or later) and, possibly more urgently, one to use if you're rumbled.

You need to prepare an honest but polite statement explaining why you did it - emphasise that you weren't in it for the lulz or to get ammunition to mock them, you were genuinely interested in seeing their side and thought you'd get a more honest picture if they thought that you were one of them. Apologise for the necessary deceit, and explain how you thought hard about the morality of it before deciding to embark on your project, and emhasise that it was always your intention to be honest eventually. Don't actually get into the evo/creo arguments, and explain that this message isn't the place for it as those arguments are going on all over the place. Tell them what you have learned from your time posing as a creationist. Try to get across, as much as you honestly can, that you continue to have respect for them as human beings, and that being ignorant or deceived (choose more diplomatic terms than these!) doesn't make one bad, it's only those who continue to do the deceiving and generate the lies (i.e. the DI, AiG, CMI and the like) who are deliberately lying for Jesus. If it were me, I'd also say I have no problem with those who are clear that their beliefs are based on faith and admit that the evidence does not back their position, but I don't know if you share that opinion. Finish by apologising for any distress your deceit might have caused. The important thing is to make sure you don't come across as a troll, and that you continue to act in a non-troll fashion whilst they think you're for real.

When the time comes, you should copy the message as a PM to your creationist "friends" and then put it on your channel. That way you'll have as many of them as possible reading the message fresh, rather than after having found out about you from others and forming their opinions from their herd mentality rather than their personal reaction.

You should also decide in advance whether to reveal your other online identity to them or not. It would be more open and honest to do so, but you might be attracting more flak than you're willing to deal with.

 

[MillionSword]

I don't think what you're doing is inherently wrong, but it might do more harm than good if you're not careful. The most important moment of your charade will be the end, and you need to start thinking of two exit strategies sooner rather than later, one to use when you decide to come clean (which, ethically, you must do sooner or later) and, possibly more urgently, one to use if you're rumbled.

You need to prepare an honest but polite statement explaining why you did it - emphasise that you weren't in it for the lulz or to get ammunition to mock them, you were genuinely interested in seeing their side and thought you'd get a more honest picture if they thought that you were one of them. Apologise for the necessary deceit, and explain how you thought hard about the morality of it before deciding to embark on your project, and emhasise that it was always your intention to be honest eventually. Don't actually get into the evo/creo arguments, and explain that this message isn't the place for it as those arguments are going on all over the place. Tell them what you have learned from your time posing as a creationist. Try to get across, as much as you honestly can, that you continue to have respect for them as human beings, and that being ignorant or deceived (choose more diplomatic terms than these!) doesn't make one bad, it's only those who continue to do the deceiving and generate the lies (i.e. the DI, AiG, CMI and the like) who are deliberately lying for Jesus. If it were me, I'd also say I have no problem with those who are clear that their beliefs are based on faith and admit that the evidence does not back their position, but I don't know if you share that opinion. Finish by apologising for any distress your deceit might have caused. The important thing is to make sure you don't come across as a troll, and that you continue to act in a non-troll fashion whilst they think you're for real.

When the time comes, you should copy the message as a PM to your creationist "friends" and then put it on your channel. That way you'll have as many of them as possible reading the message fresh, rather than after having found out about you from others and forming their opinions from their herd mentality rather than their personal reaction.

You should also decide in advance whether to reveal your other online identity to them or not. It would be more open and honest to do so, but you might be attracting more flak than you're willing to deal with.

I don't agree with some of what you said. I haven't even got that far with them, so I can't yet assertain whether I will be able to respect them or not. One of my main purposes is to expose dishonesty or to convince them to stop using dishonest means like false flagging. If I expose such things and also criminal intentions from the alliance of christ (as has been done to a certain extant already) then I will have to come clean, but I am not going to be polite if it turns out they know they are bullshitting or any such disturbing truths. However I will try and hold onto any friendships I make with genuinely nice people. Whether I reveal my real channel or not is not a major concern as of yet.

And connorkimbro I doubt that you have found me because I haven't mentioned anything about uploading vids and I don't intend to at this point.

 

[connorkimbro]

I'm almost positive that I have found you. I know you havn't uploaded any vids, i was only wondering if you planned on it

 

[MillionSword]

So. I seem to have been compromised. The key word being "seem". I haven't yet recieved any antagonism, but I don't see how it would be very likely that this is a coincidence. Perhaps disclosing information here wasn't such a good idea and a bit naive on my part. Just a few minutes ago I got a subscription and friend invite from allianceofchrist1 on my MillionSword account which I no longer use for religious/freespeach and other important issue discussion, but I joined this site before I transferred that role to the Daiblix account, which is why I am known as MillionSword here. So I'm guessing the alliance of christ somewhat monitors discussion here without contributing like slimey bastards (lol I can talk) and discovered this thread.

Of course, this is my own fault, but at least I've uncovered the fact that anyone can be lurking around, and bit myself in the ass as I did so. So if there is an allianceofchrist member reading this.... well played.

If this is a coincidence, meh, I'm still not gonna post any updates here at least on a regular basis. However expect updates sometime in the future.

 

[connorkimbro]

Doh! Well, it wouldn't be terribly surprising that they have lurkers here. And as I pointed out in the PM's on youtube, it was very easy to find you

 

[Nashy19]

It's not quite the same thing but I sometimes ask right-wingers to explain things like public healthcare to find out where their problem lies.

I'd expect some self foolery with the YECs, that my be hard to play along with.

 

[MillionSword]

It's not quite the same thing but I sometimes ask right-wingers to explain things like public healthcare to find out where their problem lies.

I'd expect some self foolery with the YECs, that my be hard to play along with.

It is VERY hard to play along with :3

 

[Icefire9atla]

This does raise an important question, are there any YECs in our ranks?

 

[nasher168]

This does raise an important question, are there any YECs in our ranks?

Oh no! You found me out!
Nah, I don't think there are any active ones at any rate. That said, Niocan does believe some pretty crazy stuff, so he could be. I've only ever seen him posting about homoeopathy-type nonsense.

 

[Nogre]

This does raise an important question, are there any YECs in our ranks?

I wonder...if one tried, and was forced to really understand our arguments in order to participate in the discussion, do you think he/she would be disillusioned? :lol: