Ridiculous U.S. gun laws.

[Sparhafoc]

The only objections I have to the attachments on the "modern sporting rifle", aka the AR, are a bayonet mount, and a grenade launcher.

I see no need for either in a civilian environment.

Duuuuude... like how else are you supposed to park your car when your garage door electronic signaller's out of batteries?

 

[Deleted member 42253]

Nope, didn't miss anything. Apply it to knives, baseball bats, cricket bats, rocks, elastic bands, matches, lighters, coconuts, banana skins and video games. Let's ban the fucking lot because in the wrong hands.....
Oh, wait, no let's not do that because it's insanely stupid.

Yes, you are acting silly.
I get that you like guns and to go "pew pew" for whatever reason, but thats no reason to be dishonest here.

I can run away from a guy with a knife etc. pp.. A guy with a knife etc. pp. cant accidentally shoot me cause he tripped and it is much harder, mentally speaking, to kill someone with a knife etc. pp. then a gun. Nevermind practically.

Except for all those other reasons mentioned in your thread to which you conceded every single one whilst simultaneously trying to pretend your original point wasn't utterly wrong and falsified.

Oh yeah totally, you managed to convince me, that guns are not for killing people, despite the millions over millions of bodies with holes in them saying otherwise.

By the way, it's clearly escaped your narrow attention span that all of the above are also civilians. You might as well have said "Police, Military, Hunters... maybe even sportsmen, sure, but not HUMANS"

You do realize we distinguish between civilians and military and police and hobbyists and professionals?
No, policemen and members of the military, are not civilians. Hunters and Sportmen .. sure, but they are professional, big difference to someone doing something just for kicks.

 

[*SD*]

Yes, you are acting silly.

Of course I am, as was everyone else in your previous thread, for sure it couldn't have been you acting silly, that's impossible.

I get that you like guns and to go "pew pew" for whatever reason, but thats no reason to be dishonest here.

No, saying "pew pew" is what I do when I'm fantasising about guns. When I'm shooting them, they don't make that sound at all. I'm not being dishonest, but you already knew that.

I can run away from a guy with a knife etc. pp.. A guy with a knife etc. pp. cant accidentally shoot me cause he tripped and it is much harder, mentally speaking, to kill someone with a knife etc. pp. then a gun. Nevermind practically.

So, you just fucked your own point, as you usually do.

Oh yeah totally, you managed to convince me, that guns are not for killing people, despite the millions over millions of bodies with holes in them saying otherwise.

No, of course no one managed to convince you, because as Spar previously pointed out, you're a fucking narcissist who insists he's right even when he's shown to be objectively wrong. Why would you assume I thought anyone here could convince you of anything? You're the poster child for Dunning Krueger syndrome.

"Convince" you - that's a real gem.

You do realize we distinguish between civilians and military and police and hobbyists and professionals?
No, policemen and members of the military, are not civilians. Hunters and Sportmen .. sure, but they are professional, big difference to someone doing something just for kicks.

Doesn't change the fact that they are ALSO civilians. I could let your hairsplit go, if you hadn't included categories who don't fit that hairsplit in that they fall ONLY on the side of civilian, yano, hunters and sportsmen?!

I suggest paying attention if you want to join in.

 

[Deleted member 42253]

@*SD* Its called Dunning Kruger effect.
Love the irony.

 

[*SD*]

Fucking fascinating how out of everything I said there, you decided to focus on an innocuous typo. Your narcissism is shining brightly. Again.

 

[Sparhafoc]

No, saying "pew pew" is what I do when I'm fantasising about guns. When I'm shooting them, they don't make that sound at all.

I hope you got that the right way round else you've either been slack on your maintenance, or you have a fricking laser gun.

 

[Sparhafoc]

Apply it to knives, baseball bats, cricket bats, rocks, elastic bands, matches, lighters, coconuts, banana skins and video games. Let's ban the fucking lot because in the wrong hands.....

This is one I'd address.

When it comes to most of the above, while they could feasibly cause damage - or maybe even death - they're not statistically associated with it as guns are. Presumably sometime, somewhere, someone died by slipping on a banana skin only to sit up and have his brains dashed out by a falling coconut - but otherwise, guns are not in the same class as any listed above in terms of use as a murder/suicide/threat of violence weapon.

However, if I was living in a society where guns were banned but people felt the need to buy numerous knives and baseball bats, join knife and baseball bat clubs, carry their knives and baseball bats around all the time, and people kept being murdered with knives and baseball bats in statistically higher numbers than other places, I think I'd start to worry about what the fuck is happening to the society I live in, and consequently would have some right to say that this is NOT how I want to live.

That, I think, is the crux for me. It's not responsible ownership of guns for specific reasons - farmers, sports etc as we've mentioned - but rather the proliferation of guns, the extremely high rate of gun homicide, and a culture that makes a virtue out of possessing guns. It is hard to see it as anything other than dystopian.

 

[*SD*]

When it comes to most of the above, while they could feasibly cause damage - or maybe even death - they're not statistically associated with it as guns are.

My position here isn't against yours, it's against 21DL's. He keeps arguing (despite the fact that this has been shown false) that the only purpose to gun ownership is to murder humans, as per the other thread. His position is that in the wrong hands, they can be lethal, as can all the other things I mentioned, so I want to see if he wants them banned or not. It's just a basic reductio on his shit position.
"These things can be dangerous in the wrong hands"
So can these other things
"Do you want these other things banned too?"
Which is obviously silly.

However, if I was living in a society where guns were banned but people felt the need to buy numerous knives and baseball bats,

UK. Sports shops (I can grab you stats on this if it turns out to be necessary) in major cities sell thousands of baseball bats every year, yet not a single baseball

carry their knives and baseball bats around all the time, and people kept being murdered with knives and baseball bats in statistically higher numbers than other places

UK. Knives especially (because guns are harder to get hold of, especially pistols) so instead of people getting shot they get stabbed willy nilly. Yes, there's an argument which can be made about the chances of surviving a bullet vs the chances of surviving being stabbed, but there's a whole load of variables and it's going to be fairly difficult to make any sort of concrete determination.

but rather the proliferation of guns, the extremely high rate of gun homicide, and a culture that makes a virtue out of possessing guns

That's just a political point which I'm not super interested in arguing about, and is one of the reasons I didn't chime in with this thread earlier.

 

[Sparhafoc]

My position here isn't against yours, it's against 21DL's.

Sure, I understand.

He keeps arguing (despite the fact that this has been shown false) that the only purpose to gun ownership is to murder humans, as per the other thread. His position is that in the wrong hands, they can be lethal, as can all the other things I mentioned, so I want to see if he wants them banned or not. It's just a basic reductio on his shit position.
"These things can be dangerous in the wrong hands"
So can these other things
"Do you want these other things banned too?"
Which is obviously silly.

I totally get what you're saying, and as you know - I agree. There are obvious uses for guns that don't involve murdering people.

But also the point still stands that the reduction to absurdity necessarily evades the bit where it isn't absurd to say that guns are vastly more responsible for death and injury than all the rest of that list combined.

I have a very soft spot for reductio ad absurdums (my Latin ain't good enough to pluralize that shit!) so I can't let this one stand as it's borked as is!

UK. Sports shops (I can grab you stats on this if it turns out to be necessary) in major cities sell thousands of baseball bats every year, yet not a single baseball

As you know, I haven't lived in the UK for a verrrry long time, but really - even living in some rough parts, it's not often you're going to encounter someone wielding a baseball bat. It's usually small time gang shit where the boys carry round a bat in the back of their car, then wave it like angry chimpanzees at each other, but so rarely kill even each other, let alone anyone else. Don't get me wrong, some of the harder lots might use baseball bats too, but it's to smash shit up rather than needing it to beat someone to death. It's just not a small enough weapon - it's for show.

Still, glad it's baseball bats the former have access to and not guns, because it's a lot safer to pull a trigger from a distance than it is to move into bat swiping range.

UK. Knives especially (because guns are harder to get hold of, especially pistols) so instead of people getting shot they get stabbed willy nilly.

I agree that this is the case in recent times, but it's still largely gang related, and by gangs, I mean stupid little bunches of boys who haven't grown up. It's not just happening all the time cross all segments of society like gun homicide is in parts of the US.

I want to be clear: you're not wrong, but you're also not right to suggest they're comparable - a couple of hundred of knife related deaths a year across the UK, compared to... twenty to thirty thousand gun related deaths in the US? That's two orders of magnitude more - that's not easy to ignore.

Yes, there's an argument which can be made about the chances of surviving a bullet vs the chances of surviving being stabbed, but there's a whole load of variables and it's going to be fairly difficult to make any sort of concrete determination.

My position is really that society shouldn't really aspire to let either case occur. I don't really think that's idealistic - I actually think it's what most people in the world expect, and consequently are very surprised when some violence occurs in their proximity or to someone they know.

Thailand can be quite violent, but it's still not normal to encounter violence in Thailand unless you're the kind of person who's gone looking for trouble.

That's just a political point which I'm not super interested in arguing about, and is one of the reasons I didn't chime in with this thread earlier.

I know I can tell you and you won't think I am secretly hiding my real true political agenda BWAHAHAHAHHA.... but I honestly have no political affiliation in this. I think society is fundamentally about a balance between security and liberty, and I think all societies are basically experiments in that regard, and in my opinion, the US indicates that the mass proliferation of guns with a culture that fetishizes them is empirically worse off in so many ways.

 

[Sparhafoc]

My last point on this as I don't want to get too serious in this otherwise comedy thread - it's kind of academic interest in a way....

But here's a formulation.


Should I have the right to X?

-- Yes

Should my right to have X trump your right to Y?

-- Open for discussion.

 

[*SD*]

But also the point still stands that the reduction to absurdity necessarily evades the bit where it isn't absurd to say that guns are vastly more responsible for death and injury than all the rest of that list combined.

Well, depends where you're talking about, and that's why I didn't get involved until someone asked me to chime in. In the UK this is not the case, there are very, very few gun related deaths, or even injuries, so here it would be absurd to say that guns are probably the most likely implement used to kill people. Knife deaths far, far exceed shootings. Last one I recall was last year, I believe a police officer got shot in the custody suite by a man under arrest. But prior to that, the last one I recall was back in 2009/10 - a man called Derrick Bird. He owned the firearm legally, something went wrong in his head and he killed some people (I don't recall how many, but I'm happy to do the digging if citations are needed) with a .22LR rifle. Since then, there have been far more fatal knife wounds (deliberately inflicted) than there have by anything firearms related.

As you know, I haven't lived in the UK for a verrrry long time, but really - even living in some rough parts, it's not often you're going to encounter someone wielding a baseball bat. It's usually small time gang shit where the boys carry round a bat in the back of their car, then wave it like angry chimpanzees at each other, but so rarely kill even each other, let alone anyone else. Don't get me wrong, some of the harder lots might use baseball bats too, but it's to smash shit up rather than needing it to beat someone to death. It's just not a small enough weapon - it's for show.

This is correct, it's mostly knives, I brought up baseball bats vs baseball sales (which is genuinely true) because people generally aren't owning baseball bats as ornaments or because they enjoy swinging them with no baseball.

Still, glad it's baseball bats the former have access to and not guns, because it's a lot safer to pull a trigger from a distance than it is to move into bat swiping range.

This is not a controversial point, is obviously true so I won't contest it. Other than to say in the UK this misses the point, and I'm now derailing the thread with talk of the UK, which is why I was avoiding commenting. People can't (BROADLY speaking) just "get" guns in the UK, so they use knives and baseball bats.

I agree that this is the case in recent times, but it's still largely gang related, and by gangs, I mean stupid little bunches of boys who haven't grown up. It's not just happening all the time cross all segments of society like gun homicide is in parts of the US.

It is by gangs in large part, and I agree it's a cultural failing, young children running around with steak knives they stole from their mothers kitchen stabbing people for "street cred" is beyond delinquent. But this is what's happening regardless.

I want to be clear: you're not wrong, but you're also not right to suggest they're comparable - a couple of hundred of knife related deaths a year across the UK, compared to... twenty to thirty thousand gun related deaths in the US? That's two orders of magnitude more - that's not easy to ignore.

I'm not really trying to say they're comparable as such, largely because the US is enormous and the UK is tiddly. If farting between 7am and 8am were illegal you would obviously find more law breakers in the US compared to the UK due to sheer population.

My position is really that society shouldn't really aspire to let either case occur. I don't really think that's idealistic

I don't disagree with this.

I know I can tell you and you won't think I am secretly hiding my real true political agenda BWAHAHAHAHHA.... but I honestly have no political affiliation in this. I think society is fundamentally about a balance between security and liberty, and I think all societies are basically experiments in that regard, and in my opinion, the US indicates that the mass proliferation of guns with a culture that fetishizes them is empirically worse off in so many ways.

I wasn't suggesting you had a political agenda, I could have been clearer so I apologise. All I meant was it's something specific to the US, which, again, is why I was trying to keep out of this

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

So, not farmers, not target shooters, not pest controllers, not clay pigeon shooters then...

Do you consider any of the above to be uncivilised?

I was referring to society as a whole, rather than any specific group.

Where would you place America on a scale of "civilized nations"?

Judging by the amount of violence in America - even compared to just other developed nations - it's well down the list.

Kindest regards,

James

 

[Deleted member 42253]

Fucking fascinating how out of everything I said there, you decided to focus on an innocuous typo. Your narcissism is shining brightly. Again.

What else is there to focus on?
You arguing against a strawman?
The ad hominem attacks?
The logical fallacy of comparing two things are not comparable?

I was being polite.

 

[Sparhafoc]

In the UK this is not the case, there are very, very few gun related deaths, or even injuries, so here it would be absurd to say that guns are probably the most likely implement used to kill people.

Because....

There are very few guns available, so of course there are very few gun related deaths. That's kind of my point!

 

[*SD*]

What else is there to focus on?

The topic? How's that?

You arguing against a strawman?

Except I'm not, neither is anyone else.

The ad hominem attacks?

The ones that haven't taken place?

The logical fallacy of comparing two things are not comparable?

Another thing that hasn't happened.

I was being polite.

What do you want, a medal?

 

[*SD*]

There are very few guns available, so of course there are very few gun related deaths. That's kind of my point!

Yes mate I know it was, but they are replaced with other means of death, which was my point

See @21st Demon Lord ? This is what discussion looks like, it's not about insisting you're right even when you aren't.

 

[Deleted member 42253]

Totally SD! So feel free to continue arguing for "Not guns kill people, people kill people".
I think that was a very popular stance in the 80ties.

 

[Sparhafoc]

I'm not really trying to say they're comparable as such, largely because the US is enormous and the UK is tiddly. If farting between 7am and 8am were illegal you would obviously find more law breakers in the US compared to the UK due to sheer population.

Again, I have to clarify here: this is irrelevant. The numbers I cited can readily be looked at per capita, and you see two orders of magnitude higher numbers of gun related deaths in the US than you do knife related deaths in the UK.

UK:
Pop 66.5m -
Knife deaths per year - let's say 300.

US: 328m
Gun related deaths per year - let's say 30,000

There are roughly 5 times more people in the US, but the number of gun-related deaths is 100 times greater than knife related deaths in the UK.

People really aren't being stabbed willy nilly in the UK, which isn't to say it isn't terrible or desperately in need of checking - but it just simply is not remotely comparable to the danger the proliferation of guns represent in the US.

 

[Sparhafoc]

Totally SD! So feel free to continue arguing for "Not guns kill people, people kill people".
I think that was a very popular stance in the 80ties.

Well, it's at least partly true.

Gun ownership in Switzerland is very high, but they don't have that gun fetishizing element to their culture and have comparatively few gun related deaths.

The presence of guns unarguably contributes to the threat of gun violence, but it does also take people willingly trying to shoot each other with guns, and that's not automatically the state of mind of all gun owners.

 

[*SD*]

Totally SD! So feel free to continue arguing for "Not guns kill people, people kill people".
I think that was a very popular stance in the 80ties.

And there isn't one single aspect of that sentiment that you can show is incorrect, is there 21DL? Do guns take it upon themselves to walk out of peoples cabinets, load themselves, point themselves at people, pull their own triggers and shoot people?

Do they?

DO THEY????

Wait, what about knives?!

Oh yeah.