Repeated Personal Experiences = Evidence?

[Durakken]

dream journal = not happening...cuz the whole nightmare thing I'd rather forget most of my dreams... although every so often I get an awesome idea for a story from a dream.

As far as what can i remember about that particular dream...

Full class, I was sitting in the back row about middle I think 3rd or 4th column, another guy in front of me. Several desks to the front. I don't remember the teachers name, but it was a history class. I'm fairly certain the topic being discussed was Sobibor (death camp during WWII) I was sketching, a drawing that I sketched and messed around with every day in that class. The guy in front of me wore red, had dark brown hair and wore a gray baseball cap.

I don't remember anyone else in the class nor much else about that particular class room. This was roughly 6 /7 years ago and the dream was 2-3 years before the event occurred. The sketch and topic of discussion was happening before the events.

This one is the one i remember best in terms of overall, but since I would have had to have seen it from my perspective only key things would be important to me at the point so anyone could have "predicted" any of the things in that at any point. I recognized the room and the people in the situation as being part of the event when i first saw/met them. The sketch and topic I had no idea about and didn't recognize or even remotely remember those elements till after it started.

As sad as it sound the most predictive any of this has ever been in my memory has been with video games. Recently I played Batman: Arkham Asylum and I suddenly recognized a situation, triggered the memory and because of that, something that would have been hard to get through was easy as I knew precise timing for that whole thing.

So for the first one we could attribute it to a generalized dream, matching an event that caused a de javu mode in my brain that placed details where it was generalized, but then I have to remind you this was years ago and was probably more to it...plus the fact i talked about it before means at least it wasn't completely de javu

For the second if it were de javu it word have hurt my game rather than helped it.


As far as the rememberance of this I have to point out that I have a relatively good memory that allows me to ignore most things and still retain most of the information and I am a person that looks at all the possible outcomes along with a an active imagination so I don't actively go out of my way to remember stuff as even if something were like proof of ghosts or something I wouldn't be thinking to remember or to write this down. I'd be more interested in sitting and chatting and seeing the limits of what a ghost could or would do. I am not a detail person. I'm more of a person who would rather play in my delusion than show that they are real or not. Let someone else do that ^.^

 

[Aught3]

Dude, you're totally not getting this. You've asked whether your personal experience of dreams is enough to count as evidence that you can predict the future, it's not. The most likely option (repeated to you numerous times) is that your memory is faulty, appealing to an event that you 'remember' from 6-7 years ago is not going to cut it - your memory is precisely what is being questioned.

The vividness of these memories is no justification for your belief. UFO abductees have clear memories of their experiences and can reveal amazing detail about the aliens, their ship, and what medical procedures they were subjected to. Although these memories have crystal clarity they are not real. Everybody has found at one time or another that something they 'remembered' had not actually happened or that the event occurred differently from the way they remembered. This is so common it has a name - deja vu. The mostly likely explaination is that you can't predict the future and you are merely experiencing deja vu - a false memory with just enough detail for you to believe it.

If you are happy in your delusion then fine, but if you weren't curious then you wouldn't have posted it on the LoR. Sorry if you wanted feel special or for us to validate your experience but it's relatively common (I among others here have experienced it) and since you are unwilling to even perform the mildest of tests there is really nothing more to say.

 

[Niocan]

Confront that conflict and you'll have better dreams Is there an overall theme? are there similar situations? are the threats easy to identify or are they shrouded... ask yourself these questions every morning, and maybe you'll decode your message.

 

[Durakken]

Dude (<- note sarcasm), I was responding to someone. And, duuuuude, the explanation given doesn't explain it due to the problems I point out. Also who said I think that I can predict the future supernaturally. I'm just saying that the given explanations do not work due to other facts, but perhaps some combination of known and unknown things worked together to create an experience of prediction.

No to mention deja vu is the feeling that something has happened before due to the explanation given. Also it is very clear when something is a dream to me and when it isn't because in the dream someone dies while in the real event someone doesn't. This is a very distinct thing that does not happen in deja vu.

You can question my memory all you want, but to be such a dick when I am listening and saying why I think this or that can not be and responding to questions, is just, well, dickish, dick.

And Niocan, shut up v.v

 

[scalyblue]

Why would you draw the conclusion that you have predictive dreams instead of the conclusion that you are finding correlation where there is none.

I've played Batman Arkham and there were several points where I found it easy to traverse because the timing was down, I would imagine it's more due to the fact that the developers who wrote the game used other games that I have already played as a template, if they didn't actually write those other games. If you discover that quarter circle punch is ha do ken in street fighter IV, would you draw the conclusion that the information came to you from a dream, or would you draw the conclusion that it's a common key combination and you have knowledge of it from other, similar games?

How do you know that you're not combining the 'favorable' aspects of a dozen dreams about being in a classroom, picking and choosing which parts match and which parts didn't?

How do you know that your memory is even correct? What do you have to rely on, your memory? You can't find out if a lamp is broken if you aren't sure that the light bulb isn't also burned out, one of those variables needs to be removed.

As I said earlier, and as others have said, if you are really curious, write these dreams down...I can guarantee you that without some real reaching, you will never find any correlation with future events and you can put yourself at rest.

If you dont' want to do that, as you've said, you need to invert your thought process and apply critical thinking methodology to your hypothesis; science isn't discovering that water boils at 100c @ ground level pressure, it's discovering that water doesn't boil at 90c @ ground level pressure.

 

[Durakken]

Why would you draw the conclusion that you have predictive dreams instead of the conclusion that you are finding correlation where there is none.

I've played Batman Arkham and there were several points where I found it easy to traverse because the timing was down, I would imagine it's more due to the fact that the developers who wrote the game used other games that I have already played as a template, if they didn't actually write those other games. If you discover that quarter circle punch is ha do ken in street fighter IV, would you draw the conclusion that the information came to you from a dream, or would you draw the conclusion that it's a common key combination and you have knowledge of it from other, similar games?

How do you know that you're not combining the 'favorable' aspects of a dozen dreams about being in a classroom, picking and choosing which parts match and which parts didn't?

How do you know that your memory is even correct? What do you have to rely on, your memory? You can't find out if a lamp is broken if you aren't sure that the light bulb isn't also burned out, one of those variables needs to be removed.

As I said earlier, and as others have said, if you are really curious, write these dreams down...I can guarantee you that without some real reaching, you will never find any correlation with future events and you can put yourself at rest.

If you dont' want to do that, as you've said, you need to invert your thought process and apply critical thinking methodology to your hypothesis; science isn't discovering that water boils at 100c @ ground level pressure, it's discovering that water doesn't boil at 90c @ ground level pressure.

Really this is starting to get on my nerves. This is how rational discourse works...

Someone presents a claim
If someone reject the claim they says so and say why
The original someone either rejects that and says why or corrects.
If the person rejects that reasoning or correction they explain why.

What is happening here is:

Someone presents a claim
If someone reject the claim they says so and say why (with some of you)
The original someone either rejects that and says why or corrects.
The person with the original rejection continues to say the same thing regardless of the reasons why their rejection was rejected.



Look, I'm not saying I'm right. I'm saying what you are saying DOES NOT EXPLAIN IT. There are aspects to your reasoning that simply do not work for why it was this or that. If you just ignore that point and continue to say, "Yeah well it's still that!" then you are not contributing to any discourse at all.


scalyblue, as far as your interpretation of what I'm saying about Batman: AA. It's simply wrong. Deja vu does not explain it as explained. It can't. Simply put if it were deja vu my ability to react with precision time would be way off and if it doesn't then that creates a huge problem in itself. You are literally saying I am reacting to stuff that my brain hasn't processed yet. As far as it's controls. No, it's controls are very unique and well done and build off ideas from other games, but are not in their complete package near anything else.

Further you would have to then argue that I was day dreaming and/or delusional and reacted differently while simultaneously formulating the memory of reality as it was while i was playing.

I am sorry, but what you are saying does not work.

Now, I don't mind you being skeptical or saying prove it, but I am saying what you are talking about simply does not work in at least what I am talking about.

And if you have a problem with how my attitude has gotten a bit more uppity or whatever. What I have to say to that is i have been saying I can see how that may work here or there, but not here this entire thread and you and others have simply repeated the same thing over and over and quite frankly if you don't have decency to be rational then I have no reason to be decent or polite to you.

Now if you have nothing more to say than "your memory is faulty" and "it's deja vu" move along. You've been heard and rejected fairly and honestly.

 

[ExeFBM]

Did you have a reason to tell someone that you had a dream, where you sat behind someone in a history class, and drew a sketch? It just seems a bit non-eventful to tell someone about. Also, did the person remember you telling them about it? Is it possible that you telling someone about the dream, was an actual dream, either distinct or the same as the original dream?

 

[Aught3]

Perhaps a new informal logical fallacy can be coined here? The argument from Batman - where a fictional character is used to justify fictional beliefs.

 

[Durakken]

Did you have a reason to tell someone that you had a dream, where you sat behind someone in a history class, and drew a sketch? It just seems a bit non-eventful to tell someone about. Also, did the person remember you telling them about it? Is it possible that you telling someone about the dream, was an actual dream, either distinct or the same as the original dream?

Why tell someone about such a dream? It's one of those topics where dreams come up and a recurring pattern of people dying in mundane situations is one of those things that is quirky and interesting.

As far as the person remembering me telling them. As far as I know. I don't go around hounding people about whether they remember something i said to them in a run of the mill conversation. from all indications though I would say yes.

Is it possible that it was a dream? No. It is not probable. You are suggesting that I had a string of dreams that all have the same indicator at the end that i didn't talk to anyone about, but then later dreamed i did and then dreamed or deja vued the events that i could remember and had the indicator but now while in a wake state and didn't have that indicator. That's a bit out there in likely to happen. Not to mention it would have required me to have been in several over lapping comas...

Perhaps a new informal logical fallacy can be coined here? The argument from Batman - where a fictional character is used to justify fictional beliefs.

I'm so glad your contributing.

 

[Josan]

Really this is starting to get on my nerves. This is how rational discourse works...

Someone presents a claim
If someone reject the claim they says so and say why
The original someone either rejects that and says why or corrects.
If the person rejects that reasoning or correction they explain why.

And we're stuck at point 3.

Look, I'm not saying I'm right. I'm saying what you are saying DOES NOT EXPLAIN IT. There are aspects to your reasoning that simply do not work for why it was this or that. If you just ignore that point and continue to say, "Yeah well it's still that!" then you are not contributing to any discourse at all.

Because you came into this discussion with your mind already made up. All your claims have been met with a satisfcatory response. And your original question has been answered. No, personal experenice is NOT valid evidence. We have also given you a good way to test this for yourself, aswell as make some small hint of evidence for anybody else, and you refuse to do it.

What do you want from us? To ignore the simplest and best solution simply so you can feel special? I'm sorry Durakken, but you can't predict the future.

 

[ExeFBM]

Why tell someone about such a dream? It's one of those topics where dreams come up and a recurring pattern of people dying in mundane situations is one of those things that is quirky and interesting.

If someone died in your dream, and they didn't when the event happened, then you didn't predict the future

As far as the person remembering me telling them. As far as I know. I don't go around hounding people about whether they remember something i said to them in a run of the mill conversation. from all indications though I would say yes.

It's not about hounding someone, it's about verifying that what you remember happening is the same as what actually happened.

Is it possible that it was a dream? No. It is not probable. You are suggesting that I had a string of dreams that all have the same indicator at the end that i didn't talk to anyone about, but then later dreamed i did and then dreamed or deja vued the events that i could remember and had the indicator but now while in a wake state and didn't have that indicator. That's a bit out there in likely to happen. Not to mention it would have required me to have been in several over lapping comas...

I simpler explanation would be that you have fragmented memories from one or more dreams, that you may have mixed up, or mis-remembered. You said there was a 2-3 year gap between the dream and the event, and memories only get more distant and inaccurate over time. Have you ever seen a scene in a film, that you thought was particularly gruesome, and then seen the film at a later date and found that it was no where near as bad as you remember, even if you could picture the scene in your head before the re-watching?

 

[scalyblue]

Now, I don't mind you being skeptical or saying prove it, but I am saying what you are talking about simply does not work in at least what I am talking about.

And what precisely are you talking about?

From time to time I have a short dream that has a series events and then ends in someone in the dream dieing.
Later, sometimes years later, everything in the short dream save for the death and after that point happens as it happens in the dream.
These dreams are more or less mundane.

Dreams of people dying are mundane?

They never repeat.

I thought that

If someone only has 3 REM cycles and wakes up between 1 and 2 and then sleep through 2 and 3 they will remember 1 and 2 or 3 more likely than the first person who has 5 dreams, but can only remember 1 on average.

...so how do you know that your derams never repeat if you only remember a percentage of them?

I have no control over this and often forget the dream till the event begins to happen.

I dreamed that my will made the sun rise, I had no control over it...I forgot the dream until the sun started to rise, so logically I must have willed the sun to rise without realizing it. You're welcome, earth!

This means I can predict something several minutes into the future when this happens.

Why does it mean that? How do you go from 'from time to time I have a short dream' to 'this means I can predict something' without the steps in between such as, um, verification, critical thinking

Things I have no ability to know about do appear in these dreams such as people, games, and various other things that I had no knowledge of when I dreamed the event, and in some cases the idea didn't even exist yet.

Things you have no ability to know about, like a redhead sitting in front of you in a classroom, or finding the pattern in an easy, pattern-based video game?

When you have a dream about Chapter 5 in Ikaruga and ace it on the first try, I might be more inclined to believe you

What idea didn't exist yet? How do you know it didn't exist yet?

How do you know that your memory is infallible in this matter? Have you been able to establish that? How do you know that your brain isn't seeking to make connections where there aren't any, and fabricating the memories after the fact to justify your thought process? You refuse to document your dreams, so that's a big strike one.

These are the questions you should be asking yourself. You already assume that you know the truth and you are trying to prove or disprove it, that's the first thing that you have to discard. Unless it is something provable and replicable, it is just a distortion of your perception, because your perception is very easy to distort, it's biased and imperfect.

You think your perception can be trusted? I can prove that it can't because you like video games.

Do you think you've ever seen a moving picture on a movie screen or television screen, you're wrong. Your flawed brain's flawed visual cortex is incorrectly interpreting a fast series of still images as something that's moving.

Here, let me use your thinking in a different scenario.

My machine generates free energy through perpetual motion, it keeps going faster and faster and faster.
No, sorry, I don't have it anymore, I dropped it and it broke.
No, I didn't write down any plans, and I won't because writing scares me.
No, I can't build another one off the top of my head, the inspiration will only come when it wants to.
WTF do you mean you are questioning my memory, you don't trust me? I'm offended!

See what I did there, I have made a claim in such a manner that disputing it will dispute my veracity, and got offended when it was questioned even though I had no proof aside from my word.

 

[jrparri]

You have correctly identified the issue:

Someone presents a claim
If someone reject the claim they says so and say why
The original someone either rejects that and says why or corrects.
If the person rejects that reasoning or correction they explain why.

But you misidentified what is happening in the thread:

Someone presents a claim
If someone reject the claim they says so and say why (with some of you)
The original someone either rejects that and says why or corrects.
The person with the original rejection continues to say the same thing regardless of the reasons why their rejection was rejected.

When in actuality it is clearly this:

Someone presents a claim
Others raise objections of the veracity of the claim, ask questions and makes research suggestions.
The original someone ignores or handwaves the objections by applying further claims, and finds reasons to reject the suggestions.
ex: --> I have scary dreams that (appear to) predict the future. But I will not start a journal to verify this because they are scary dreams, and my fragile emotions cannot withstand the trauma recalling them. Therefore, you must all except my special pleading, or I shall declare you close-minded.
The others continue to restate their same objections and questions, which continue to be non-answered, until the thread goes on for pages and pages, accomplishing nothing.

Illustrated thusly:

My machine generates free energy through perpetual motion, it keeps going faster and faster and faster.
No, sorry, I don't have it anymore, I dropped it and it broke.
No, I didn't write down any plans, and I won't because writing scares me.
No, I can't build another one off the top of my head, the inspiration will only come when it wants to.
WTF do you mean you are questioning my memory, you don't trust me? I'm offended!

See what I did there, I have made a claim in such a manner that disputing it will dispute my veracity, and got offended when it was questioned even though I had no proof aside from my word.

 

[Niocan]

It's the same neo-rational views that I got in my silver thread, they don't care about your personal experience; All they want is to fit your odd case into their reality via x y and z so their egos don't explode..

Explore your mind and dreams for the answer, not the minds of artificial people.

 

[scalyblue]

This is a very good video about the veracity of personal experience ^.^

 

[Niocan]

This is a very good video about the veracity of personal experience ^.^

An even better, real, source of personal verification is Love; Your argument is void.

 

[scalyblue]

Whether I love something or not will not change a fact.

Oh, nice way to watch the 10 minute video in 6 minutes. You must not be subject to the same laws that we all are. Go back to poisoning yourself, hon, the intelligent people are having a discussion here.

 

[Niocan]

The point is very easy to see in the first few minuets... Besides, the reason why third party evidence is so sought after is because of the lack of trust we have for each other these days. The flood of reasons as to why these people shouldn't be trusted that flew through your head is moot; Of all the UFO sightings seen, only one needs to be true for the concept to be proven correct.

You lack the evidence because you don't want to search for it; I call that willfully ignorant.

 

[scalyblue]

The point is very easy to see in the first few minuets... Besides, the reason why third party evidence is so sought after is because of the lack of trust we have for each other these days. The flood of reasons as to why these people shouldn't be trusted that flew through your head is moot; Of all the UFO sightings seen, only one needs to be true for the concept to be proven correct.

You lack the evidence because you don't want to search for it; I call that willfully ignorant.

I lack the evidence because there is no evidence. Find me some evidence and I won't lack it, and that evidence has to be something of a greater order than "I saw it, no, really!"

At least you're dismissing arguments before you've even heard them in their entirety...now I respect you even more ^.^

Now to the guts of it, and that's that human perception can't be trusted, hon. That's why third party evidence is required, that's why we have the scientific method, and why we have invented processes and machines to test things to that degree. That's what the point was, which so clearly missed you. You must doubt your own perception because your perception tells you that the picture on the television is moving when it's not, it tells you that the sun rises in the east when it doesn't, it tells you that things around you are solid when they're made up of mostly empty space, it tells you that infrared and ultraviolet don't exist.

Now go back to that blathering nonsense about how ionic silver will save the world

 

[Niocan]

Haha, your need to corner concepts and apply a thick paste of self indulged thought is cute.

human perception can't be trusted

It's sad to see someone so convoluted that they can't even trust their own eyes and mind until a panel of other people say it's ok to.