Religious conversations: IRL vs. Intertubes

[Memeticemetic]

I had a lovely conversation a few hours ago with some Jehovah's Witnesses who came to my door. While obviously we disagreed quite vehemently about the nature of reality, we were able to rationally express to each other what we believe (and don't believe) in a cordial, even friendly manner. It seemed to me that they had never had a conversation of this nature with an atheist but were quite willing to listen to and understand when I explicitly defined atheism and agnosticism and why I would be considered both and that they are not mutually exclusive. We even reached some consensus on the goals of communication, science, and morality, if not on the origins of them.

Discussions like the one I had are vital for understanding and I began to lament the dearth of such dialogue I find on the net. Is it the lack of visceral feedback one gets from communicating relatively anonymously behind a computer screen that leads to a breakdown in civility? If I can't see the effects my words are having will my words tend to be more harsh and unnecessary critical? If my goal is mutual understanding then is talking to others on the web counter-productive, or is it simply good training for when I have the conversations in the real world that matter much more? Any thoughts?

 

[Andiferous]

I try to address these things thoughtfully but I suppose everyone is motivated for different reasons and so shows variable interest. Why would you believe debate on the web to be counter-productive? I suppose more specifically; what are you looking for?

I have very strong opinions on this topic and try not to go into it all the time. Or I'd really be going off on it all the time.

I believe one primary reason to debate, anywhere, is to challenge ones' own ideas by submitting them to others, and thereby learn from the discussion. The internet can help with a sort of improvisation more difficult with real life distraction - but I think makes it more flexible in general.

Similar but a bit different, I think some use debate to memorise positions.

I never argue with mormons or JW knocking at my door because I get nothing from it. On the other hand - and perhaps I judge wrongly - but there seems strategy to sending Mormons or JWs, during the tentative rite of initiation, on routine of door-knocking and and door-slamming duty. After all, they are forced to argue others, face persecution, build resolve, and perhaps even ultimately convince themselves of their arguments by repetition and building a repetoir of standard answers to questions - I've no doubt this process strengthens commitment (and dare I say can be used in brainwashing). I don't have a stomach for it and try to escape without much ado.

Actually, I don't argue religion in real life as a general rule.

I do think the internet can be a bit sinister in dehumanising anonymous people and you make a good point.

I dislike debating people with whom I feel no common ground.

 

[obsidianavenger]

people tend to be less inhibited in their online communications, meaning more likely to express opinions percieved as unpopular, and more likely to express unpleasant emotions such as anger. i can't speak for anyone else, but i've noticed that its much easier to disagree with someone online that it is to do face to face. in person i'll generally let stuff go that i wouldn't on the internet because of the effort involved in trying ot have a face to face discussion.

i also think people agree more in actual conversation because theres no written record of what is said, so its easier for people to slightly change their positions and reach a compromise without having the evidence of their change staring them in the face. that sort of cognitive dissonance would make them more stubborn. that, and the terms used and the positions taken are less carefully clarified irl, such that two people could agree to a statement even though they tend to interpret that statement in vastly differing ways.

 

[Memeticemetic]

I try to address these things thoughtfully but I suppose everyone is motivated for different reasons and so shows variable interest. Why would you believe debate on the web to be counter-productive? I suppose more specifically; what are you looking for?

I have very strong opinions on this topic and try not to go into it all the time. Or I'd really be going off on it all the time.

I believe one primary reason to debate, anywhere, is to challenge ones' own ideas by submitting them to others, and thereby learn from the discussion. The internet can help with a sort of improvisation more difficult with real life distraction - but I think makes it more flexible in general.

Similar but a bit different, I think some use debate to memorise positions.

I never argue with mormons or JW knocking at my door because I get nothing from it. On the other hand - and perhaps I judge wrongly - but there seems strategy to sending Mormons or JWs, during the tentative rite of initiation, on routine of door-knocking and and door-slamming duty. After all, they are forced to argue others, face persecution, build resolve, and perhaps even ultimately convince themselves of their arguments by repetition and building a repetoir of standard answers to questions - I've no doubt this process strengthens commitment (and dare I say can be used in brainwashing). I don't have a stomach for it and try to escape without much ado.

Actually, I don't argue religion in real life as a general rule.

I do think the internet can be a bit sinister in dehumanising anonymous people and you make a good point.

I dislike debating people with whom I feel no common ground.

I'm not really sure that I do find debate online counter-productive. What I'm looking for in my interactions with people in the real world is consensus. Two or minds coming together, possibly from divergent views, to find common ground. And that common ground is always there somewhere, even if it's on subjects that are relatively trivial or unrelated to whatever the current discussion is about. I genuinely like and respect nearly every person I meet in the real world and feel I have something to learn from them, and them from me.

See, I think more people like us need to take up the challenge with people who come a-knockin'. Judging from my rather limited experience it seems they really aren't prepared to butt heads with intelligent and informed atheists. Even if they never leave their faith, I think they can only benefit from having their beliefs seriously challenged. Not aggressively challenged since that would fit with the narrative of martyrdom, but vigorously and intellectually challenged. I mean, I smacked down with no effort whatsoever every stock argument thrown at me, and while they retained their composure, I could see that they honestly had never heard why their arguments were so weak.

 

[Memeticemetic]

people tend to be less inhibited in their online communications, meaning more likely to express opinions percieved as unpopular, and more likely to express unpleasant emotions such as anger. i can't speak for anyone else, but i've noticed that its much easier to disagree with someone online that it is to do face to face. in person i'll generally let stuff go that i wouldn't on the internet because of the effort involved in trying ot have a face to face discussion. .

And that's why I do it, I suppose. The relative anonymity makes it far easier to be uninhibited with opinions and emotions. The downside is the acrimony it can engender, but the upside is hearty debate and an opportunity to learn something new. I dunno, I guess I just wish I would stop being such an asshole.

 

[Andiferous]

This is a flattering pep talk but to be honest, I've had to learn the skill of not debating over time and have suffered some real lesson zingers in real life. Essentially, it takes a particular type to make a good debate, different for everyone, and why I rather like this site. Because I dare not do so with anyone in my life, because I risk sounding callous or hurting feelings - and have done too much for my liking without meaning to do so.

I can see when most of you guys are eager to trade ideas though, and I rarely if ever take offense. Really, I have to like you to argue with you. And so this is my safe place, where I exercise less restraint and can share ideas more freely.

 

[Andiferous]

people tend to be less inhibited in their online communications, meaning more likely to express opinions percieved as unpopular, and more likely to express unpleasant emotions such as anger. i can't speak for anyone else, but i've noticed that its much easier to disagree with someone online that it is to do face to face. in person i'll generally let stuff go that i wouldn't on the internet because of the effort involved in trying ot have a face to face discussion. .

And that's why I do it, I suppose. The relative anonymity makes it far easier to be uninhibited with opinions and emotions. The downside is the acrimony it can engender, but the upside is hearty debate and an opportunity to learn something new. I dunno, I guess I just wish I would stop being such an asshole.

Haha.

I wonder how many of us feel like assholes.

 

[obsidianavenger]

Haha.

I wonder how many of us feel like assholes.

actually i rarely do when arguing, whether online or irl. i am just afraid irl that someone will start screaming at me. i tend to lose composure easily in such situations. its embarassing >.>

 

[Andiferous]

Heh, I will never. I'm a very cold debater and it goes very poorly face to face. Here I might get (remotely) flared up once or twice but will always address it at once. In life, I find, few people actually will take you at your word, and are more likely to assume there is a hidden meaning. Cold debate face seems antagonistic and causes too many problems.

 

[Memeticemetic]

Heh. Yeah, as soon as voices are raised I've learned to just walk away. I've got my father to thank for that one. He would rant and rave at the drop of a hat and just end up looking like an idiot. An idiot who was easy to dismiss and ignore. If I'm going to look like an idiot, I'll have it be because I'm wrong, not because I lose my temper.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

This is just words on a screen. In real life, the only people I'd generally bother getting into deeper conversations with are people I care about. I don't care about some random stranger on the Internet, and I don't feel any particular need to spare their feelings. On the other hand, since I'm not especially good at typing, I tend to use much more colorful language in real life. "Sweet crispy chocolate covered caramel Christ on a stick" is a pain in the ass to type, but really fun to say.

 

[Andiferous]

Heh. Yeah, as soon as voices are raised I've learned to just walk away. I've got my father to thank for that one. He would rant and rave at the drop of a hat and just end up looking like an idiot. An idiot who was easy to dismiss and ignore. If I'm going to look like an idiot, I'll have it be because I'm wrong, not because I lose my temper.

I usually get completely disillusioned when tempers rise, and I politely make an exit, even if it means swallowing pride. I only debate for myself, or it's not worth it. I'm deeply skeptical that any progress can be made at emotional points and would rather not waste effort at that junction. I also, weirdly, hate fights in general, so at that point my mediation and diplomacy urges kick into gear, which is way too much work and by then I've no desire to 'compete' at all anyway, so it's no longer for my benefit. I'm a walkeroffer.

 

[Andiferous]

This is just words on a screen. In real life, the only people I'd generally bother getting into deeper conversations with are people I care about. I don't care about some random stranger on the Internet, and I don't feel any particular need to spare their feelings.

Now I call BS

Sorry Joe, you don't always come off as an unaffected android. And arse at times, maybe.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Now I call BS

Sorry Joe, you don't always come off as an unaffected android. And arse at times, maybe.

You might smell like BS, but you don't have to call it out... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm affected by the issues I discuss sometimes, but online people I don't care about either way other than in a general sense. This is all just entertainment to me. When I'm no longer entertained by someone, I just stop talking to them. :mrgreen:

 

[Andiferous]

Now I call BS

Sorry Joe, you don't always come off as an unaffected android. And arse at times, maybe.

You might smell like BS, but you don't have to call it out... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm affected by the issues I discuss sometimes, but online people I don't care about either way other than in a general sense. This is all just entertainment to me. When I'm no longer entertained by someone, I just stop talking to them. :mrgreen:

I think that's the wind shifting there, Joe.

There's no reason to get pissed off or passionate about issues when you're talking to NPCs in World of Warcraft. You've got connection, but you're an arse about it. I feel a na na na na na coming on. Yeah, I stop talking to them too.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I think that's the wind shifting there, Joe.

There's no reason to get pissed off or passionate about issues when you're talking to NPCs in World of Warcraft. You've got connection, but you're an arse about it. I feel a na na na na na coming on. Yeah, I stop talking to them too.

If I cared that much, I'd have pitched a fit about you calling me an "arse" over and over. The only connection I've got is the 40-mbps I'm paying through the nose for.

 

[Andiferous]

I think that's the wind shifting there, Joe.

There's no reason to get pissed off or passionate about issues when you're talking to NPCs in World of Warcraft. You've got connection, but you're an arse about it. I feel a na na na na na coming on. Yeah, I stop talking to them too.

If I cared that much, I'd have pitched a fit about you calling me an "arse" over and over. The only connection I've got is the 40-mbps I'm paying through the nose for.

Really? That's silly. Hack'n'slash called you much worse. And you liked that.

I'll leave you alone, I am being unfair, but... bah nevermind.

 

[Memeticemetic]

There's no reason to get pissed off or passionate about issues when you're talking to NPCs in World of Warcraft.

I used to get pissed off at NPCs in WoW constantly. Especially when they wanted me to do a damn follow quest. Or whatever it's called. I stopped playing that cursed game after we beat Wrath in a month. I could finally honestly claim, "I beat World of Warcraft" so I could be done with the life-sucking monstrosity.

 

[Andiferous]

Wow. What did you debate? Couldn't you just kill them?

Sorry Joe, wasn't meant badly.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Really? That's silly. Hack'n'slash called you much worse. And you liked that.

I'll leave you alone, I am being unfair, but... bah nevermind.

Hah! I hope you don't think I'm worried... that would contradict my whole point.

I'll tell you though, keeping my distance online is for my own peace of mind. I'm such an idealist that if I get too emotionally involved in online debates that go nowhere, I start getting upset and even depressed about it.