Religion in America: The Showdown

[televator]

Man is nothing without God.

No atheist here has said that.... Go look up "projection" in psychology while you're at it.

 

[theyounghistorian77]

Atheism leads ultimately to annihilation of the self.

I can confirm my self is not annihilated.

I can also confirm that my self is not annihilated :lol:

If there is no greater being than man, and you are left with only man as your compass, what do you have?

We have works of fiction, History and philosophy, and the reason'd judgements we make from that. Little wonder then that we here in these forums can handle morality better than any holy book ALONE. Of course, If you want to see a true avocation of cruelty, murder, and horror, look no, further than your own silly bible. Your 'god' is responsible for, and advocates for murder and oppression throughout the entire text.

This is one of my favorites;

"So the waters were healed unto this day, according to the saying of Elisha which he spake. And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was, going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up,, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked, on them, and, cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."

2 Kings 2, 23-24

Haha - So your 'god' murders forty-two children for being nothing more than children, yea there's a great moral lesson for you im sure :lol: . It's a, wonder that the western world has progressed at all. religion has at the most only ever played a very limited role in the development and dominance of the west

"As, we say in venice ... We are Venetian first, and Christian second. Art and, trade before faith." - Count Francesco da Mosto

Do you think an athiest can truly be moral when he believes he is nothing but worm food?

Yep

And i even agree with Einstein. It is quite possible that we can do greater things than Jesus for what is said about him in the Bible is poetically embellished.

And i definitely think that we in these forums have much better morals than say, those Christians who were involved in the Genocide, in Rwanda for example.

Man is nothing without God.

And all the 3750+ [and counting] Gods are nothing without Mans imagination.

 

[Gnug215]

@catman,

Atheism is as much a "faith system" as Christianity or any other faith system...if not moreso. Physics and biology are beginning to note data which suggests anything but atheism. Dawkins is another one who requires blinders of his audience and himself to keep selling books.

+

Atheism requires faith in nihilism. To believe that one merely is worm food or ashes in the end, requires a faith that there is nothing else, that we are here by accident (not by design), & that we return to the nothing from which we came. Prove that "nothing" is real. Can't be done. If, as I suspect, you are mostly students here in your 20's, then like any good instructor I would say show me the evidence for both sides, not just one side of the argument.

Sorry, it was law school that did me in.

Mod note!

To havanacat,

No, atheism is not a faith system, even with quotation marks. It is by no stretch of the imagination something you can compare to religion and the great faiths, which have fairly specific requirements as to what can qualify you as an adherent. Atheism does not require any of the things you mentioned above. Claiming that it does means you are either obtuse or prevaricating.

Equating atheism to faith, when atheism is non-faith is bending the term beyond its meaning, for purposes one can only speculate about.

Atheism is simply the answer to one single question, nothing else. Making it out to be anything else on this forum is by my interpretation of the law here "being excessively crude, irritating or attempting to troll for lulz".

Also, you are derailing this thread.

This is your first warning.

 

[australopithecus]

Uh oh....Gnug's broke out the big green font :lol:

 

[Squawk]

Uh oh....Gnug's broke out the big green font :lol:

I lolled too

 

[Dean]

Uh oh....Gnug's broke out the big green font :lol:

I lolled too

Yup, it is funny, ain't it. So much for freedom of speech. Remember: Freedom of Speech is worthless unless you are willing to let others say things you dislike or disagree with, even if their statements are clearly false. Whilst I too disagree with havanacat, what he is saying falls far short of anything that can honestly be called trolling, as was expunged by Gnug's categorization, and reference to anti-troll rules. I can't even see that he (havanacat) is being deliberately obtuse in this; nor being 'crude' as was also suggested by Gnug. What is happening here?? :?:

While I haven't been here for that long; surely points regarding atheism/faith are irrelevant to official mod statements? Am I right? If the topic, is indeed being derailed, the sidetrack posts should probably be split into another thread. To this end, we could still have a useful discussion.

 

[scorpion9]

If there is no greater being than man, and you are left with only man as your compass, what do you have?

Hmm, lets imagine that there are more gods than just your desert god.
Now...lets imagine that one of those gods asks this question
"If there is no greater being than us, and we are left with only each other as our compass, what do we have?"

Does it make any sense?

If gods dont have any higher dictator telling them how to behave, and they can make up their own minds, why should humans not be able to do the same?


This person, havanacat, seems to be have finished his indoctrination process and looks like these are his first attempts to recruit others into his cult.

And i see why mod interprets his arguments as trolling, because they are so far from reality. People like this havent usually arrived at these conclusions and arguments that they are presenting.
E.g claiming that atheists are immoral must be a parasitic idea because vast majority of atheists are decent and moral. So, it brings up a question, how did a religious person arrive at such conclusion. Could it really be so that he lives in an atheist-town and has experienced atheist-violence and immorality. Maybe 1/100000 has, but its quite reasonable to assume that the idea "atheists are immoral" is parasitic, based on no real experience and evidence. And the person who has such parasitic ideas, should sit down, and figure out how that idea got into his head.

Same goes for pretty much all other arguments he presented. Its obvious that they are also parasites.
So..havannacat, sit down, relax, and backtrace the pathway from your arguments and conclusions back to where they came from.
Make sure that the pathway doesnt look like this
[A person/Book claiming something] ------>[you having faith] ------>[you accepting the claim]

It would be better if the pathway looked something like this

[A person/Book claiming something] ------>[you experiencing/observing it in reality] ------>[apply skepticism] ------>[you accepting the claim]

 

[Dean]

One of critical thought must simply reject the notion of a "Celestial North Korea", as Hitchens described it so succinctly... :lol:

 

[Bearcules]

So much for freedom of speech.

You have freedom of speech in life. Not on a forum.

Also, he got warned for derailing the thread, not for his ideas.

 

[australopithecus]

If the topic, is indeed being derailed, the sidetrack posts should probably be split into another thread. To this end, we could still have a useful discussion.

What useful discussion can be had when based on someone strawmanning atheism that hadn't already been discussed ad nauseum?

 

[Prolescum]

Dean, they are probably not going to make you a moderator. Let it lie.

I recommend contributing to actual discussions.

 

[Dean]

If the topic, is indeed being derailed, the sidetrack posts should probably be split into another thread. To this end, we could still have a useful discussion.

What useful discussion can be had when based on someone strawmanning atheism that hadn't already been discussed ad nauseum?

Sorry. I should have made my response more tuned. By way of refinement:

If the topic, is indeed being derailed, the sidetrack posts should probably be split into another thread, and then that [new] thread be locked itself.. To this end, we could still have a useful discussion of the opening post's subject here; (title= "Religion In America, etc) without further disruption..

 

[Dean]

[. . .]

I recommend contributing to actual discussions.

Religion in America? (Edit: O.K., In this case.) Well, in this case, I must say, I am British; so I know little of U.S. Fundamentalism, although, in recent times I have come to notice that there is a growing, and....quite terrifying Christian Nationalist Movement in the United States these days, and the potential for religion to actually become more theocratic in government in the US. Not to mention the 40-45% of electorate Americans reject the theory of Evolution outright, and a worryingly high proportion of those are Young-Earth-Creationists.... Good GOD (no pun intended). And, specific to the opening post, I do LOL many a time to Bill O'Riley's absurd arguments from ignorance, and the surprisingly religious motivations of the politicians he supports and the media he puts out... I will not pretend that I know a great deal about religion in the U.S. In my view, religion relies heavily on cultural and parental indoctrination, and of course, (as a cross-reference, look at the UK), without those influences, it would not last. Alas, this seems unrealistic.

 

[Prolescum]

[. . .]

I recommend contributing to actual discussions.

Religion in America?

Not specifically, no.

 

[CosmicJoghurt]

Gentlemen, gentlemen. We have a new funny furry little friend with strong ideas for us to discuss. Yay. We've had some of those before, this is nothing new.

I look forward to having fun with this one :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

 

[WarK]

Gentlemen, gentlemen. We have a new funny furry little friend with strong ideas for us to discuss. Yay. We've had some of those before, this is nothing new.

I look forward to having fun with this one :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

funny furry little friend? having fun? Why don't you grow up and attack the arguments instead of attacking the person?

*sigh* why not explain why, where and how she's wrong instead of making silly remarks directed at her and warnings?

 

[CosmicJoghurt]

And who said I wouldn't?

Also, what warnings?

And telling me to grow up is futile. You know... us teenagers. Rebellion. I don't have to follow your orders.

After all... as long as I'm not breaking any rules. Which I'm certain I'm not.

Cheers!

 

[australopithecus]

I don't have to follow your orders.

If a Mod says stop, you stop. Now you've got 2 mods telling you to stop. Guess what you should do?

After all... as long as I'm not breaking any rules. Which I'm certain I'm not.

You're right, being passive aggressively snide and patronising isn't against the rules. However I'd drop the attitude if I were you.

 

[CosmicJoghurt]

I'm surprised I have to do what a someone says, even if it's a mod, considering that it wasn't a warning, but a rhetorical statement regarding my apparent cowardice. One that surprises me...
I was about to state my opinion regarding how I'm the only one warned, but I guess it'd be seen as troublemaking. So I'll give up.

If you say so.

EDIT:

Now,

@ontopic

Religion in America? (Edit: O.K., In this case.) Well, in this case, I must say, I am British; so I know little of U.S. Fundamentalism, although, in recent times I have come to notice that there is a growing, and....quite terrifying Christian Nationalist Movement in the United States these days, and the potential for religion to actually become more theocratic in government in the US. Not to mention the 40-45% of electorate Americans reject the theory of Evolution outright, and a worryingly high proportion of those are Young-Earth-Creationists.... Good GOD (no pun intended). And, specific to the opening post, I do LOL many a time to Bill O'Riley's absurd arguments from ignorance, and the surprisingly religious motivations of the politicians he supports and the media he puts out... I will not pretend that I know a great deal about religion in the U.S. In my view, religion relies heavily on cultural and parental indoctrination, and of course, (as a cross-reference, look at the UK), without those influences, it would not last. Alas, this seems unrealistic

And even worse is the fact that a vast majority of americans would hate having an atheist as president more than they would hate having a black one (for the lack of a less racist term ) , or a gay one, I think. They want a president with strong religious views.. It seems atheists are most despised. So long for freedom of thought, in the social aspect...

 

[RedYellow]

Man is nothing without God.

Havanacat, don't you see how this makes you more of a nihilist than anyone else? You are the one saying man is nothing. I mean all it comes down to is that you need to be instructed to value human life, that IS what you are saying. But we atheists can value human life without being told to. So how do you know who means it more? In an atheistic world view, humans are the authors of meaning and purpose, which makes it intrinsic to our every being, in this way we cannot be separated from meaning, and each of our lives is like a little universe we experience from beginning to end.

Theism forces you to devalue human life so that we all have to go crawling to god to find purpose, but who's purpose is that, really? If someone tells you what God wants you to do, then is it god's purpose, or the person's interpretation of it? If you think that god speaks to your heart, is it really god, or is it your interpretation of what you are feeling?