Religion and Sex

[Laurens]

What is it that makes religion so obsessed with sex?

There seems to be an obsession with genealogies in the Bible. Might it have something to do with this? The law against adultery for example, would this be a handy way of knowing who's child was who? Stopping people from confusing these genealogies by sleeping around? Was it simply for dispute resolution?

What about the abolishment of homosexuality? Is is possible that in a time when the tribe's survival depended on numbers, that homosexuality was banned because it was seen as unproductive? Be fruitful and multiply it says.

Where do you think religion's bizarre obsession with sex comes from?

It might just be that sex is more fun than Church, and they don't want you to realise that...

 

[Squawk]

Well sex is fun, religion doesn't much like fun since it detracts from religion, so they ban it.

Alternatively, we're all obsessed with sex, so it's a natural thing for them to have an opinion on.

 

[Duvelthehobbit666]

Well by ordering people not to have sex, you have a form of control. By forbidding something, you take control of an aspect of their lives. I doubt that homosexuality was banned because there were not enough people. That to me seems utterly ridiculous. I think it has something to do with other ancient cultures of the time. They were a lot more tolerant of homosexuality so it would be a way to demonize other groups of people to keep your people together. It all has to do with control nothing more nothing less.

 

[Krazyskooter]

Why would that be ridiculous? Actually it make perfect sense if a tribe is trying to increase it's population faster than the opposition. Scare the homosexuals into a heterosexual lifestyle by threatening death to those who act on it.

 

[Isotelus]

If you look at many early religions, you'll see a particular emphasis on fertility; both in nature and in ourselves. Generally sex/fertility/reproduction was linked to the abundance and fruitfullness of life. I would suspect that the links between sex and religion are deep rooted and at least in part connected to earlier civilization's perspectives on and interactions with the natural world.

Ever notice in Genesis when Adam and Eve eat the fruit, the first thing they realize is each other's nakedness and they are ashamed by it? I always found that pretty interesting.

 

[lrkun]

The act of sex is natural in man. Religion wants to control man. Religion made sure that they have certain provisions with respect to sex.

 

[Anachronous Rex]

Religion needs to justify its existence. One of the ways it justifies its existence is offer forgiveness, which it says we desperately need.

And therein lies the problem, because there are a lot of people who haven't done much wrong. Oh sure, they've contemplated taking wicked actions, and may have occasionally stolen some trivial item, maybe the cheated or plagiarized at some point, lied, mislead, and deceived; worst case: maybe they let someone else take the blame for their own misdeeds - all things to be ashamed of certainly, but nothing terribly unforgivable, nor would any fair-minded judge think so.

So in order to sell the point religion needs to convince you that you've done more wrong than you have. The easiest way to do that is to demonize primal impulses. Things that the religion knows most people have done, or will do, or certainly have at least thought about - for indeed even to think of them is tantamount to action. Sex (even masturbation) is a primal impulse.

So, religion tells you throughout your childhood that thinking about sex is wicked in the eyes of god, but inevitably you think about sex and now you need forgiveness. Lucky for you, this is a product the religion sells. Religion tells you throughout your childhood that masturbation is wicked in the eyes of god, but inevitably you masturbate and now you need forgiveness. Lucky for you, this forgiveness for this too is just happens to be a product the religion sells. Religion tells you throughout your childhood that having sex is wicked in the eyes of god, but inevitably you have sex and now you need forgiveness. Lucky for you, *gasp* this is, once again, product the religion sells.

Of course, not all religions work this way. Just the successful ones.

 

[Andiferous]

I think it's just another way religion has been used to justify social roles and order in society. The Christian bible is all about rules, laws, who has dominion over whom and that sort of thing. Dare I point out the "legitimacy," patriarchal and bloodline emphasis thick in the history of western society. A history where nobles are justified as nobles by better breeding, and peasants capable of nothing more than their station, so it seems logical that controlling sex is the only way to ensure pedigree.

Not all religions control sex in the same way, but many of the big fat patriarchal ones do, some of which still delineate people by class and caste.

 

[MRaverz]

If you're loving your partner, how can you love God more?

 

[Giliell]

There's several things coming together in sex that makes it so attractive for religion to control:

A) Population
Get more people. They knew very well what canon-fodder was long before they knew what a canon was.

B) Misogyny
Before genetic testing, you could usually only ever be sure about who's the mother. So in order to really make sure you're feeding your own brats instead of your neighbour's you had to control the women. That's why virginity was (and is) prized in women but irrelevant for men. That's why the adultress is usually more severely punished than the adulterer.
That is why the old testament regulations about rape make sense:
If you have kids, they cost you money. If they're boys they'll earn their share once they are old enough. If they are girls, they marry and all that precious food you invested is lost because now they'll work for someone else. So there's a price for the bride. Now somebody rapes her and you cannot be sure if she's pregnant or not. You don't wan't another mouth to feed, nobody will take her now, so you're seriously losing money over this. So either he has to keep her or you stone her to dead, too.

C) You really can't avoid it
As mentioned, you need forgiveness, seriously

 

[Krazyskooter]

There's several things coming together in sex that makes it so attractive for religion to control:

A) Population
Get more people. They knew very well what canon-fodder was long before they knew what a canon was.

B) Misogyny
Before genetic testing, you could usually only ever be sure about who's the mother. So in order to really make sure you're feeding your own brats instead of your neighbour's you had to control the women. That's why virginity was (and is) prized in women but irrelevant for men. That's why the adultress is usually more severely punished than the adulterer.
That is why the old testament regulations about rape make sense:
If you have kids, they cost you money. If they're boys they'll earn their share once they are old enough. If they are girls, they marry and all that precious food you invested is lost because now they'll work for someone else. So there's a price for the bride. Now somebody rapes her and you cannot be sure if she's pregnant or not. You don't wan't another mouth to feed, nobody will take her now, so you're seriously losing money over this. So either he has to keep her or you stone her to dead, too.

C) You really can't avoid it
As mentioned, you need forgiveness, seriously

So God is an ideal symbol for economics rather than morality? lol.

 

[Time Lord]

i am religious an i admit Sex is natrual but religion tries to make sure that no mistakes happen during e.g a child being created by accident and leading to abortion.
Now i have relgion and yes this one of the hardest rules to follow and i do not like it but it does not stop me from following it because i belive it is the right thing to do and none of us will know this until we die.

 

[Giliell]

So God is an ideal symbol for economics rather than morality? lol.

I'd say that god(s) is a good justification for rules that benefit the powerful and to large extents the comunity in which they were created.
No pork? Good idea if you live in the middle east with no freaking sanitation. But it's a rule that early christians in Rome could neglect.
No divorce makes a lot of sense when you think about having to deal with homeless women and children in such a case.
Problem is that religious people often fail to realise that the times for which those rules were good have gone by.

 

[Deleted member 619]

Stephen Fry put it best for me, in the Intelligence Squared debate:

The only people obsessed with food are anorexics and the morbidly obese.

 

[Anachronous Rex]

i am religious an i admit Sex is natrual but religion tries to make sure that no mistakes happen during e.g a child being created by accident and leading to abortion.

This would be fine, except that religion does give its own justifications for opposing and controlling sex, and this justification is not found among them. Indeed, I task you to find me even one passage, from any religion, supporting this argument.

This is an invention of modern Christianity, it is anachronous to the vast bulk of Christian history, the teachings of Jesus Christ (as laid forth in the canonical gospels), the Early Christian religion, and especially the Old Testament - which lays out in no uncertain terms that children are not like adults, and do not have the rights of adults; to kill your own offspring is entirely condoned in these documents.

Clearly this cannot be the source of Christian insecurity with sex. It is an excuse used to perpetuate precisely the mechanism I described above. And indeed it is a very poor excuse; statistically children educated in a Christian fashion on these issues are more likely to become pregnant prematurely, and more likely to seek out an abortion.

Now i have relgion and yes this one of the hardest rules to follow and i do not like it but it does not stop me from following it because i belive it is the right thing to do

So why not just do it because you believe it is the right thing to do? Why does religion have to get involved?

and none of us will know this until we die.

Not to be overly harsh on you, as you are clearly quite young, but this quite genuinely the worst argument possible. If truth is unknowable, then how can you advance any proposition? This is the core of an argument from ignorance.

 

[Noth]

i am religious an i admit Sex is natrual but religion tries to make sure that no mistakes happen during e.g a child being created by accident and leading to abortion.
Now i have relgion and yes this one of the hardest rules to follow and i do not like it but it does not stop me from following it because i belive it is the right thing to do and none of us will know this until we die.

Could you bring yourself to accept that even without religion people can still be careful when it comes to sex? I know of non-religious people that want to save themselves for marriage to make it more special and people who take extreme care with sex and use the right contraception to reduce the risk of unwanted pregnancy or diseases to a near negligible amount.

What I'm trying to say is that if you value this way of thinking about sex then this is something you can see independently from religion. The very fact that (for instance) Christianity has a rule about it, a rule that, as you apparently agree, goes against one's nature is another reason why I question the morality of religion.
You can be responsible with sex, you don't need a divine rule-book telling you how to use your genitalia. In any case, sex-ed is far better at explaining how to deal with the birds and bees than the metaphorical "grapes" and "plums" and whatnot of the bible

 

[Giliell]

Could you bring yourself to accept that even without religion people can still be careful when it comes to sex? I know of non-religious people that want to save themselves for marriage to make it more special and people who take extreme care with sex and use the right contraception to reduce the risk of unwanted pregnancy or diseases to a near negligible amount.

No seecret, I didn't wait until marriage. Actually, marriage was a nice "extra" on top of having a wonderful relationship with the guy I want to spend the rest of my life with.
I would still say that I'm very responsible when it comes to sex. I didn't rush it, I made sure we were protected. True, the relationship could have turned out differently, but that wouldn't have made my decisions less responsible. So far I have a 2 digit number of years of satisfactory sex-life, no unwanted pregnancies and no STDs (if you don't count the odd yeast infection I always get after taking antibiotics).
So far I can see nothing but positive effects of having a sex-life totally undisturbed by religion and no negative effects.
I'm always wondering how sex must feel for the religiously indoctrinated, who are on one side told that it's sinful, but on the other side that it is a woman's duty to submit to her husband and so on.
I recommend watching this video by theowarner where he takes on WLC's twisted and disgusted views on sexuality. With such ideas about sex, it's hard to have a fulfilling sex-life, I imagine


Oh, BTW, how come that people who advocate no sex before marriage would never buy a car with a test-ride?

 

[Andiferous]

So God is an ideal symbol for economics rather than morality? lol.

Problem is that religious people often fail to realise that the times for which those rules were good have gone by.

I'm not sure if I have a grasp on your message entirely, but your point has reminded me of something. Some of the justifications for 'marriage' and such (and by extension, chastity) have pointed out that abstinence is beneficial to the women who might be abandoned and so forced to raise a child in economic destitution, which is obviously detrimental for women. I could probably write an essay on the topic, but just to point out that this particular 'necessity' depends on the climate of any given culture. For instance, In societies that standardise the 'nuclear family' this may be more of a concern - and in societies where moral judgment tends to land on the woman I think this tends to happen more frequently - but this still is not the standard for all cultures. Some of that "good" might have been an illusion anyway.

 

[Daealis]

What is it that makes religion so obsessed with sex?

I have a conspiracy theory to why this is: To convert more young people.

Teens get interested in sex around the time they would be able to use this fun activity to procreate: When puberty hits. Around that age, you are most likely ashamed of the changes, insecure and whatnot. The church has a brilliant reverse psychological stand on this: "All things you are thinking are bad, and we can help to control those urges!" So teens turn in their desperation to the youth ministries and their willingness to tell about their twisted views of sex, because who would ever ask from their parents or search online for such stuff and risk getting caught.

So now we have a group of teens that can talk about their desires by faking disgust and presenting their uncertainties to an adult that is willing to listen. The only problem is that they are with the church and going to distort their views as well. But after making them feel guilty and worthless, he can just promise some all-loving god and eternal bliss to make up for it.

Anyone else with me on this conspiracy? Anyone? No? Just me then?

 

[Andiferous]

What is it that makes religion so obsessed with sex?

I have a conspiracy theory to why this is: To convert more young people.

Teens get interested in sex around the time they would be able to use this fun activity to procreate: When puberty hits. Around that age, you are most likely ashamed of the changes, insecure and whatnot. The church has a brilliant reverse psychological stand on this: "All things you are thinking are bad, and we can help to control those urges!" So teens turn in their desperation to the youth ministries and their willingness to tell about their twisted views of sex, because who would ever ask from their parents or search online for such stuff and risk getting caught.

So now we have a group of teens that can talk about their desires by faking disgust and presenting their uncertainties to an adult that is willing to listen. The only problem is that they are with the church and going to distort their views as well. But after making them feel guilty and worthless, he can just promise some all-loving god and eternal bliss to make up for it.

I totally agree with your assessment, and I think you've made a valid point, but I think this is a case of which came first, the chicken or the egg.

(Not that I think there's a single answer anyway, but it's an interesting discussion).

Whether you'll be embarrassed at puberty or regard it as some sort of initiation to adulthood depends on how you've been conditioned to react to sex. To say that ones' response to changes at puberty causes ones' shame of sex is to assume sex is rather evil and puberty stuff repulsive to begin with. Chicken, egg. (Chickens don't have belly buttons, do they?)