Reasoning with one who protests reason

[HISTRUTHBEKNOWN]

Only a True and Living God could and did create all that exists since lifeless and mindless chemical elements cannot contrive anything without cognizance/minds. The ATP Synthase motor and the Electric Motor are demonstrably intelligently designed from scientific observation. Both are made with the lifeless and mindless elements of the periodic table that can't collaborate to contrive the ATP Synthase motor and the Electric Motor. Living Human intelligence/beings collaborated to contrive/manufacture the electric motor using the elements of the periodic table, but human intelligence/beings didn't and can't make the ATP Synthase motor because God did.

All people who are not contemporaries of Adam and Eve or their nearest kin can't "KNOW" that Adam and Eve were there with God. This is accepted by faith. However, only a true and living God can foretell His future plans hundreds and thousands of years in advance and have them occur as planned. Only a true narrative could have vindication by artifacts that Archaeologists continue to find. Therefore, the Bible has a history of inerrancy and vindication to make it trustworthy and not fantasy?
The Bible is written by eyewitnesses that include God Himself, God's Biblical claims are being confirmed by real science. The first advent of Jesus His Messiah/Christ was foretold thousands of years ago beginning with the promise/covenant with Adam and Eve and by many unfolding details of the coming Messiah, his purpose and suffering progressively revealed to humans over the thousands and hundreds of years before his arrival. Only a True and Living God can do this. Jesus fulfilled all the details of the first advent.
Jesus predicted the destruction of the temple that occurred in 70AD i.e. Jerusalem the center of Israelite life and culture. The State of Israel was non-existent for almost 2000 years. Who is self-existent and eternal that can see to it that Israel would be gathered from the Northern parts of the world and returned to the land that God promised them? Only a true and living God can and did do just that as foretold.
The scoffers sit in the seat of unbelief and denial willfully without REASON and are without excuse.[/color]

 

[australopithecus]

Smells like hit and run...

 

[Prolescum]

Funny, smells to me like someone desperately clinging to an increasingly irrelevant collection of fairy tales in the hopes that their life might be given meaning without putting in the hard graft.

Weak sauce makes for a disappointing supper.

 

[Frenger]

Meh, just in case this isn't a hit and run.

Only a True and Living God could and did create all that exists

Ok, first define what you mean by god, and then inform us how you know these qualities can be attributed to this "god" of yours and then explain why only this god could create the Universe.

since lifeless and mindless chemical elements cannot contrive anything without cognizance/minds.

Yep, inorganic matter cannot contrive anything. However, thanks to a process called abiogenesis followed by evolution by natural selection we have evolved brains capable of thought, introspection, love, creativity, morality and all those other wonderful attributes you don't find in rocks. In't that lovely.

The ATP Synthase motor and the Electric Motor are demonstrably intelligently designed from scientific observation.

Please demonstrate why the ATP synthesis had to be intelligently designed. As far as I understand it, ATP synthesis was probably a result of modular evolution, that being two separate subunits performing two separate functions binding together to create a far more efficient system. Although I'm going by academic and peer reviewed studies, but that doesn't mean your research won't be brilliant as well :roll:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1135046/

Both are made with the lifeless and mindless elements of the periodic table that can't collaborate to contrive the ATP Synthase motor and the Electric Motor.

Incorrect, ATP is an organic molecule so it isn't lifeless. Can you explain what you mean by "lifeless", do you mean it doesn't think? If so is a virus lifeless?

Living Human intelligence/beings collaborated to contrive/manufacture the electric motor using the elements of the periodic table, but human intelligence/beings didn't and can't make the ATP Synthase motor because God did.

So because humans can't make something in your lifetime, that means god HAD to have made it. First you have to demonstrate that a god exists and then show by what process s/he/it made ATP synthase, why this being made life via all these chemical reactions or even why they bothered creating life at all. Until you can do that, I shall chalk this up as a fail for you.

All people who are not contemporaries of Adam and Eve or their nearest kin can't "KNOW" that Adam and Eve were there with God.

Adam and Eve never existed, next.

This is accepted by faith.

Nope, it's accepted with a gross lack of thought, knowledge and with a truck load of gullibility and stupidity.

However, only a true and living God can foretell His future plans hundreds and thousands of years in advance and have them occur as planned.

Oh, so what does this god have planned? A picnic perhaps? A trip to Disneyland? Perhaps s/he/it will get a conservatory built on the south of France, you know, to just chill in the summer.

Only a true narrative could have vindication by artifacts that Archaeologists continue to find.

Oh yes, because we have all seen Noah's dingy in the god museum haven't we. :facepalm:

Therefore, the Bible has a history of inerrancy and vindication to make it trustworthy and not fantasy?

Therefore nothing m'lad. Nothing has EVER been found to show that any of the bible stories are anything more than just the made up bollocks of some desert people.

The Bible is written by eyewitnesses that include God Himself, God's Biblical claims are being confirmed by real science.

The bible is written by people who didn't know any better than the times they lived in, and it shows. Exactly what do you mean when you say "real science"? Do you mean any science that shows the Universe is 13.72 billion years old, that the Earth is 4.6 Billion years old and that Humans evolved from a common ancestor with Chimpanzees is not "real science"?

Well, allow me to retort, it is, so there.

The first advent of Jesus His Messiah/Christ was foretold thousands of years ago beginning with the promise/covenant with Adam and Eve and by many unfolding details of the coming Messiah, his purpose and suffering progressively revealed to humans over the thousands and hundreds of years before his arrival.

Oh I see, so there is no way the writers of the new testament couldn't have simply referenced the old testament is there. And talking of prophecies, wasn't Jesus supposed to come back within the writers lifetime? Has anyone seen him yet? I suppose his train is delayed eh?

Only a True and Living God can do this. Jesus fulfilled all the details of the first advent.

Well, jolly good for him.

Jesus predicted the destruction of the temple that occurred in 70AD i.e. Jerusalem the center of Israelite life and culture. The State of Israel was non-existent for almost 2000 years. Who is self-existent and eternal that can see to it that Israel would be gathered from the Northern parts of the world and returned to the land that God promised them?

Yep, giving Israel there supposed promised land is going pretty well isn't it. I'm glad an all knowing god would promise the Israelites the same exact land he appears to have promised to the Muslims. Whay#t a joker huh?

Only a true and living God can and did do just that as foretold.
The scoffers sit in the seat of unbelief and denial willfully without REASON and are without excuse.[/color]

I sit and scoff in the seat of unbelief wilfully WITH an excuse my friend, and that excuse is there is no reason to believe ANY of the nonsense that can be found in ANY religious text. If you say it is reasonable to believe in talking snakes and also that our direct matriarchal descendent is half rib, half dust then we are speaking from very different dictionaries.

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

I wonder if HISTRUTHBEKNOWN would be willing to define evolution in it's biological context. Seems to me that HISTRUTHBEKNOWN does not know the first thing about biology, let alone the theory of evolution.

Only a True and Living God could and did create all that exists since lifeless and mindless chemical elements cannot contrive anything without cognizance/minds.

While you are at it, define life as well.

Only a true narrative could have vindication by artifacts that Archaeologists continue to find. Therefore, the Bible has a history of inerrancy and vindication to make it trustworthy and not fantasy?

Please elaborate.

 

[Deleted member 619]

Only a True and Living God could and did create all that exists

Don't need to go any further to debunk this. A true and living god would have to be something that exists, thus could not be the creator of all that exists.

Your magic man, if he has any basis in reality, can only be a subset. The entity you have in your head is a logical impossibility.

 

[mumblingmickey]

(a) To believe whatever you want to believe -even if it's apparently not true?
or
(b) would you rather understand how true things really are, even when the truth hurts?

The blue pill or the Red pill Neo?.. which is it going to be?.. remember there's no going back....

And my last bit there about no going back is probably the most worrying for creationists. Their world of magic is so large...and the realisation of no magic would be admittedly so great that they can't risk it, even if they knew beforehand what they were told was gobeldy gook! I mean lets face it, if there truly was an alternate reality we could all vacate to, with demons and wizards, magic, elves, dwarves and knights.... where those arriving are all made eternal Well who in their right mind would chose 'same old, same old' earth in favour of it?

One character in the Matrix actaully sold out his own human friends for a slice of pretend... just so he could be somebody in a fake world. And in fairness many might agree with his choice regardless of morality.

I think the problem is its the 'fear' of reality itself, the idea that if the world is just as they see around them., then they may as well be in eternal damnation. At lest in hell from their perspective they would be conscious... but death in oblivion is no doubt worse even than hell.

The funny thing is they think they can excuse that reality away.

 

[mumblingmickey]

Only a True and Living God could and did create all that exists since lifeless and mindless chemical elements cannot contrive anything without cognizance/minds.

Yes the phenomena of complexity emerging from simplicity is referred to as a complex adaptive system. Its known... and documented, and even used in your operating system...Google uses the same system to feed search results,

I think you need to open up a tab on your browser there and type the following words... then tell me how you feel about what you read.

Google: Complex adapative Sytems Murray-Gell Mann
RFC

The ATP Synthase motor and the Electric Motor are demonstrably intelligently designed from scientific observation. Both are made with the lifeless and mindless elements of the periodic table that can't collaborate to contrive the ATP Synthase motor and the Electric Motor. Living Human intelligence/beings collaborated to contrive/manufacture the electric motor using the elements of the periodic table, but human intelligence/beings didn't and can't make the ATP Synthase motor because God did.

Because humans can ALSO design things does not in any way mean that design is solely the product of conscious intelligence... just that this is one of the ways it arises, and the most common in the average persons experience. As I said emergent property of a complex adaptive system.

All people who are not contemporaries of Adam and Eve or their nearest kin can't "KNOW" that Adam and Eve were there with God.

But we CAN know there was no adam and eve... Its known... its not an opinion, its an absolute fact. There was no adam and eve, no snake, no garden of eden. Each of the elements of that story require procedures to take place that you yourself know is not possible. Snakes don't talk, you know that... not only do they not talk but they have no ears so they can't hear even if they could talk. Even so God talks to people in Genesis where there are no humans around even to pass that information on... and the narration in the bible continues. Are you really so badly educated about literature you don't realise the musings of someones mind God or not will never find its way into any factual account.

And you know yourself its not possible to breed a population to the diversity of the human race we see now from two people in 300 generations. We know what the genetic diversity of humanity is... and we know for an absolute fact that its more than 300 generations worth...a lot more. Thats what you are saying there... in just 300 generations [even if we are forgetting totally about the bottleneck of floods] the human population reached it current genetic diversity... that's not possible, its not what we see in genomics and current diversity... end of story. And there's no possible way to even convince yourself otherwise.

This is accepted by faith.

You mean by wishful thinking... even that would be fine... but since you know these things are not possible... that's not faith. Faith would be the acceptance of a position with no data either way, what you have is the acceptance of what you know is impossible and contrary to what you do know... In other words what you have is 'delusion' (according to any dictionary you'd care to examine.

However, only a true and living God can foretell His future plans hundreds and thousands of years in advance and have them occur as planned.

But they didn't the bible was not written when you think it was... go read Genesis... I n ther you'll find references to Iron tools being made... Iron tools... in the early bronze age... really?

Only a true narrative could have vindication by artifacts that Archaeologists continue to find. Therefore, the Bible has a history of inerrancy and vindication to make it trustworthy and not fantasy?

The narrative is a narrative... makes you wonder who the narrator is though doesn't it! I'll bet this is the first time you thought about that too... The bible is narrated, by a narrator. Even the central characters thoughts (Gods thoughts) are narrated... now who on earth would know what God was thinking?

The Bible is written by eyewitnesses that include God Himself,

We have a section on this site for the dumbest things creationists have said... and quoting a book as efficacy of the books content itself is pretty dumb. I doubt you'd accept that same logic for Peter Pan or Moby Dick... and Moby Dick is also narrated. But we know its fiction precisely because its narrated.

God's Biblical claims are being confirmed by real science.

No they haven't, but I'm pretty sure you were told they were. What has been discovered by archaeologists however is that Jesus's home town, the one his father and mother traveled from to Bethlehem... Nazareth? Well that town didn't exist until after the new testament was written... that is indeed a fact. We know absolutely that this town did not exist and Jesus could never have seen it.


Now, I'll assume you read none of that... I'd suggest you go back up and actaully read my response. I think its only fair... Because you know I read yours. But this next bit is really important, the rest of your life, the only one you have depends on you understanding it...


I know the real world and the implications of science being right and you being wrong is a very worrying prospect... But that won't make it go away. So you can either insist on nonsense you know is rubbish and live in ignorance.... or find out about how the world really works and face reality... But you cannot have both.

Red Pill or Blue Pill?

 

[scientia]

Only a True and Living God could and did create all that exists since lifeless and mindless chemical elements cannot contrive anything

Yes, God created life on the third day before our solar system existed. So, clearly this does not refer to plants on Earth as a careless reading might suggest.

All people who are not contemporaries of Adam and Eve or their nearest kin can't "KNOW" that Adam and Eve were there with God.

This is not correct. The historical narrative of Adam and Eve as two individuals does not begin until the very end of Genesis 3. Prior to this, the description is of men and women in general.

Genesis 1:27 - God created man in his image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The very first reference to a single man and a single woman is:

Genesis 3:20 - And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

I know this is confusing because the Hebrew word for man is ADM which is the same word that is used for Adam and it was mixed up a lot in translation. This, however, should be plain to you when reading:

Genesis 5:2 - Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Clearly, this is not saying that all people were named Adam. This actually says that all people were called man (or human if you prefer).

This is accepted by faith.

James 2:20 - But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:24 - Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:26 - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

God's Biblical claims are being confirmed by real science.

Yes, science being defined in the Bible as knowledge gained by demonstrated proof, not by faith. There several examples of experimental proof in the Bible.

1 Kings 18:24 - And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God.

The scoffers sit in the seat of unbelief and denial willfully without REASON and are without excuse.

Mathew 6:5 - And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men.
Mathew 6:7 - But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

 

[Affectusmatrona]

Hi. I'm new here. I did not use the introduction thread yet because this thread looked more interesting. I will introduce myself properly but since I have read through this I want to comment now.
I think that Randy is crying out for help and he definitely needs to understand reason and truth better before he can have a conversation about them. I thought that it was entirely necessary to give a lengthy description to him concerning those concepts and really think there was not enough time (50 minutes to sway someone into rational thought that has been brainwashed for 6 years straight). When he mentioned his own revelations that brought him to believe I would have asked what those revelations were. By the way he was talking here they are probably revelations about what a horrible sinner he is and therefore needs the god to save him. I would give maybe even ask him which sins he committed and talk through his guilt with him. If he is normal then any sin he is feeling condemned for can be helped with a good pep talk(one without god as solution). He might tell you he feels he needs god for reasons other than salvation as well.
On the one hand he was trying to seem secure and act frustrated about you just not getting it. On the other hand it seemed he was wanting to break free entirely from the environment and the faulty, confusing thinking.
I was de-converted from christianity by a group of very intelligent atheists each with their own personalities and styles. A couple of them were more harsh or zealous in the conversations we had, but those are actually the ones that ultimately sped me up on the road to that awakening that you are talking about. We are here on this earth to be ourselves, there should not be any one specific way of dealing with or approaching people. As far as we know at any given time we are creating a domino effect. You need more than one to play a proper game. Just because people are hopelessly brainwashed does not mean you should give up on them, to the contrary. Helping them is most noble and you might save someones life.
I think continuing the conversation with him would be a great testament of empathy, not one of offense.

If I have to base my judgement off of this thread, then this forum should be pretty interesting and wonderfully challenging for me!

 

[forgotten observer]

The name "HISTRUTHBEKNOWN" really rang a bell and then it hit me:

My nomination: HISTRUTHBEKNOWN, king of the quote-miners. He's been spamming Tf00t's videos, Potholer's videos and the Ken Miller video for more than a year, copying AIG and repeating the same quotes (one of which is from 1861!) over and over.

 

[Hamster]

Perhaps I am more sympathetic to people of faith because I tend to disagree with this comment.

"He wants me to pretend that his position has equal merit"

I may have missed something but to assume a position has nothing new and can have nothing new just shuts down a discussion. It is much more fun to listen to the points raised and point them to the information that shows the position false.

There are a lot of things left unexplained by science so I can't honestly rule out some unknown agent, even though it does seem unlikely.

Personally I am still waiting for proof of any God since I don't accept that small voice speaking in my heart.

I suffer from tinitus so I hear small voices, music etc all the time.