Reasoning with one who protests reason

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

i was asking for opinion, based on what we have heard from him, as a point of interest for me...if thats ok with you

How about your opinion on what my opinion is, based upon the context clues given from my own posts?

 

[nudger1964]

yes i picked up on that, dont worry about that

 

[Frenger]

Like what has been said before, the chap seems genuinely interested and completely ignorant of any opposition to his own position.

Gently does it aronra, he's a good kid, treat him nice.

 

[ArthurWilborn]

Oh, guys, why you acting so surprised? You must have heard AronRa talk at some point. He's an intolerant bigot who holds tight to his prejudice. Don't give him leeway just because you agree with him.

 

[australopithecus]

I'd point out you need to substanstiate that claim, but last time you tried (claiming Aron stated all religious people are delusional, then citing a video where said quote came from) it was investigated by several people and found to be in error.

 

[AronRa]

You must have heard AronRa talk at some point. He's an intolerant bigot who holds tight to his prejudice.

No part of that accusation has ever, nor will ever apply to me.

 

[bluejatheist]

I think there might be more to this that lead to the more tough approach.

 

[The Felonius Pope]

Oh, guys, why you acting so surprised? You must have heard AronRa talk at some point. He's an intolerant bigot who holds tight to his prejudice. Don't give him leeway just because you agree with him.

I have heard Aron talk. In dozens of his videos. He doesn't tolerate stupidity, but a bigot? No, just ..no....

He's taking time out of his life to help this guy because he genuinely feels he is being mislead.

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

You must have heard AronRa talk at some point. He's an intolerant bigot who holds tight to his prejudice.

No part of that accusation has ever, nor will ever apply to me.

I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic.
:lol:

 

[Mauricio Duque]

While i agree that Aron Ra, might not be able to desconvert that guy, i also think hes one of the best on debates, since he goes direct to the point of the matter...even if it is too direct for some people...

 

[Reignman]

I get the feeling this kid has no intentions of "learning" anything, nor is he really interested in hearing anything that contradicts his feel good mythology. Obviously I can't read his mind, but we all have a pretty good idea how a deeply brainwashed religious mind works. And this kid seems more brainwashed than most I've seen. Reading then promoting Ray Comfort and Ken Ham? Good grief, I think he's more damaged than we realize.

IMO he's convinced he has the "truth" already and I believe he's rather going into this with the thinking of trying to "save" AronRa under the guise of having an open mind. Hence all the "equal" talk. It wreaks of an ulterior motive. If you have an open mind toward my POV I'll have one toward yours *wink wink*. I think you're going to have to go ahead and let him believe that, to get your foot in the door so to speak, otherwise like others have pointed out, he's just going to close his mind sooner ... if it's even open to begin with.

Regardless, listening to a creatard try to evangelize AronRa 1 on 1 ... that's at least going to be quite entertaining.

 

[ArthurWilborn]

You must have heard AronRa talk at some point. He's an intolerant bigot who holds tight to his prejudice.

No part of that accusation has ever, nor will ever apply to me.

You are intolerant - this is quite easily visible. Tolerance is not to be confused with acceptance or respect, which would be unreasonable to hold for creationism. However, you clearly want to stamp it out under your heel and refuse to show even a minimum amount of tact and decorum (which the people here are rightly calling you on). In fact, I would say that your intolerance is the reason you talk to these folks occasionally; the joy of destruction rather then the hope of enlightenment.

Wikipedia:
"Bigotry is the state of mind of a "bigot", a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one who exhibits intolerance or animosity toward members of a group"

Intolerance and animosity - that's you all over. You believe you are justified and correct in your bigotry - but then, bigots always do.

 

[Inferno]

However, you clearly want to stamp it out under your heel and refuse to show even a minimum amount of tact and decorum (which the people here are rightly calling you on).

Not a single person here said anything even remotely close to that.
Arthur, let me ask you what australopithecus already touched upon: Do you accept that you were in error about basically this very topic the last time we talked?

Drawing upon experience from previous discussions with you I'd say you won't, you're incapable of admitting error.

So hey, here's a challenge: How is Aron bigoted? You claim that he shows "intolerance" and "animosity" toward... whom, exactly? Creationists possibly, though I'd call it "exasperation". But religious people in general? Certainly not.
Aron is certainly intolerant toward stupidity, but that's only against an idea, never against a person. Don't confuse the two!

 

[AronRa]

You are intolerant - this is quite easily visible.

I said myself that I don't suffer fools or liars, but to be honest, I tolerate fools pretty well. It really just comes down to lies and the liars who repeat them. There is no bigotry in my mindset, nor devotion to any perspective other than simple honesty, and that's it. You definition does not apply to me and your accusations don't fit me at all either. I don't even believe that I'm always going to be 'justified'. I lay my perspective out before all the experts hoping someone will point out where I might be wrong. Then I correct that. If you do that for as long as I have, you eventually turn out to be right most of the time. You're not however. You have misjudged me about as far as it is possible to do so.

 

[ArthurWilborn]

However, you clearly want to stamp it out under your heel and refuse to show even a minimum amount of tact and decorum (which the people here are rightly calling you on).

Not a single person here said anything even remotely close to that.
Arthur, let me ask you what australopithecus already touched upon: Do you accept that you were in error about basically this very topic the last time we talked?

Drawing upon experience from previous discussions with you I'd say you won't, you're incapable of admitting error.

So hey, here's a challenge: How is Aron bigoted? You claim that he shows "intolerance" and "animosity" toward... whom, exactly? Creationists possibly, though I'd call it "exasperation". But religious people in general? Certainly not.
Aron is certainly intolerant toward stupidity, but that's only against an idea, never against a person. Don't confuse the two!

Sure, I'm capable of admitting error - when I'm actually shown to be wrong. The strongest negative response I got was "Well, I didn't see the video, but I still refuse to believe you." That's not a very credible rejoinder.

Let's look at this very discussion.

One could say that there is an absurdly remote possibility that a deistic deity could -at least hypothetically- exist, however the notion is so ridiculous that it is beneath serious consideration.

Remember anything that requires faith may as well be labeled as a lie -because faith is the most dishonest position it is possible to have.

Remember most of the people at the Reason Rally used to believe as you do, and are ashamed and disgusted by that now,

Peace is not possible in the shadow of religion.

Remember, kiddies, anyone who is religious is worthy of ridicule, dishonest, disgusting, shameful, and violent. :roll: If you're not seeing intolerance and animosity from that, you need your eyes checked.

There is no bigotry in my mindset, nor devotion to any perspective other than simple honesty, and that's it.

[/quote]

Uh-huh. So, why would you say that this kid, or, say, an adult atheist convert, would be (or become) a Christian?

 

[Inferno]

Sure, I'm capable of admitting error - when I'm actually shown to be wrong. The strongest negative response I got was "Well, I didn't see the video, but I still refuse to believe you." That's not a very credible rejoinder.

No, you're twisting what was said.
I said "I haven't watched the video, but that doesn't seem very likely."
I went on to watch it and I was right, Aron never said the things you accused him of. Australopithecus reminded you of that... and you still won't admit it. How is that "capable of admitting error"?

 

[AronRa]

Let's look at this very discussion.

One could say that there is an absurdly remote possibility that a deistic deity could -at least hypothetically- exist, however the notion is so ridiculous that it is beneath serious consideration.

Remember anything that requires faith may as well be labeled as a lie -because faith is the most dishonest position it is possible to have.

Remember most of the people at the Reason Rally used to believe as you do, and are ashamed and disgusted by that now,

Peace is not possible in the shadow of religion.

Those are my words. Now let's see how you misunderstood and distorted them.

Remember, kiddies, anyone who is religious is worthy of ridicule, dishonest, disgusting, shameful, and violent. :roll:

These are your words. Notice how they are nothing like my words, like how they say completely different things than I did. For example, while faith is the most dishonest position it is possible to have, most people don't realize that. There are plenty of honest believers who don't realize how dishonest faith is. Many believers don't even know how faith is even defined, so that's not at all surprising. Likewise religion is often dominionist, oppressive, manipulative, wholly corrupt, consistently counter-productive and among the most evil constructs in the human psyche, but that does not mean that everyone indoctrinated in this nonsense 'deserves' any of the type berratement that you want to pretend that I implied. I never said anything like that.

If you're not seeing intolerance and animosity from that, you need your eyes checked.

Since you're seeing things that aren't there, perhaps you should ask your doctor about thorazine?

Uh-huh. So, why would you say that this kid, or, say, an adult atheist convert, would be (or become) a Christian?

In his case, I suspect it was an emotional dependancy coupled with extremely poor understanding of -well, pretty much anything.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

ArthurWilborn is a right-winger. He doesn't have a reality-based view on issues by political temperament, and is safe to ignore.

 

[Dean]

ArthurWilborn

["¦] Sure, I'm capable of admitting error - when I'm actually shown to be wrong. ["¦]

Given your somewhat bemusing refusal to accept that you were in error of your primary point(s), the last time you, I, and Inferno, went down this rather unsavoury path, it has become flagrantly obvious that this is not true, Arthur. Somehow, I suspect that the points I am about to rebut will further consolidate this point . . .

["¦] The strongest negative response I got was "Well, I didn't see the video, but I still refuse to believe you." ["¦]

No it wasn't. Given the context already brought forth, it seems that this was (implicitly) a reference to my reply, and perhaps more pointedly, Inferno's. You may well take note of my refusal to watch the video. . . I did that for a very specific reason, which later payed off. I realised that it was very likely that the claim you made about the content of the video was false, simply from what I've seen of Aron in the past. I knew someone else would make the point for me. And I was not incorrect in that assumption, it seems. The fact that several people watched the video and came to radically different conclusions than the (somewhat ambiguous) ones that you seem to have placed upon it; strikes me as fairly conclusive, as has been pointed out to you at least three times, as far as I know.

["¦]

One could say that there is an absurdly remote possibility that a deistic deity could -at least hypothetically- exist, however the notion is so ridiculous that it is beneath serious consideration.

Remember anything that requires faith may as well be labeled as a lie -because faith is the most dishonest position it is possible to have.

Remember most of the people at the Reason Rally used to believe as you do, and are ashamed and disgusted by that now,

Peace is not possible in the shadow of religion.

Remember, kiddies, anyone who is religious is worthy of ridicule, dishonest, disgusting, shameful, and violent. ["¦]

Would you distinguish between the "good" and the "bad",astrologers? Just curious. And as AronRa (amongst several others) has noted, those are your claims, not his. There is nothing in the lines of text you just quoted that suggest, or even imply that "all religious people", are "worthy of ridicule", nor did it make any mention of shame or disgust, other than the post-emptive "shame" of some deconverted atheists who happened to have attended the 2012 Reason Rally. The statement of "dishonesty",IS there, but it is somewhat justified, in my opinion. Very much so. As he has said of faith in the past: "It tells you to believe something beyond reason; without reason, and against all reason". Would you not regard that as dishonesty, or at least disingenuous, if unintentionally?

["¦] If you're not seeing intolerance and animosity from that, you need your eyes checked. ["¦]

Did you really type this, immediately after having , in the line directly preceding it , injected your own words, meanings, and so forth, into someone else's writing . . . stances that are not even implied in the text you quoted???

["¦]Uh-huh. So, why would you say that this kid, or, say, an adult atheist convert, would be (or become) a Christian?

Am I the only one who feels that the phraseology in this line is impenetrable? If so, please state this again (differently). I had to read this about eight times to even have a tenuous grasp of what I thought you were trying to say, but it still seems rather obscurantist to me. . . I'm not really sure what video is being referred to here, BTW. is the one I have linked to the correct one, or something similar?

 

[DepricatedZero]

Arthur:
AronRa has never struck me as bigoted, hateful, or even intolerant. Well, maybe intolerant of bullshit, but he's struck me as quite the opposite. If he were predisposed to simply dislike, ridicule, and dismiss the religious, he would be like me. You'd have no clue who he is beyond a few posts he occasionally makes on forums such as this one. He strikes me, instead, as a concerned, interested, and incredibly patient - even kind, willing to help educate and correct people. My 7th Grade English teacher was strict and harsh on any slip ups, and viciously jumped on every error. Does that make him hateful? Hell no, he's the best teacher I ever had and he made me love language constructs and, hell, lead into my love of programming for it. I saw him a couple years ago at a diner, went over and let him know what an impact he'd had on me. Anyway, tangent. Aron follows one of the most important rules of arguing: don't attack the person, attack the position.

I think Aron's approach can be brash at times, such as not flinching away from calling someone's position dishonest and outright wrong as an opening statement in a discussion. I think honey catches flies better than vinegar and he would probably be well served in being less rough around the edges. But on the other hand, that's how he is, and his approach is what works for him.


Aron:
Above are my criticisms of you. I'm sure you'll find them fair, and will understand what I mean. I like you, I like the arguments you present, and enjoy reading your posts. I've learned a good bit from you, and gone on to learn much more by way of following up on things you've said. I, for one, appreciate what you do. If we ever cross paths, I'd love to buy you a beer.