Quranic Fallacies

[Story]

Unfortunately, no... This topic isn't about how many mistakes the Qur'an makes, I'm sure none of us are in doubt that there are mistakes in the Qur'an, however I've noticed that the many people that address the problems with Islam tend to assert a lot of things that simply aren't true about the Qur'an.

I'm looking to put together a list to set everyone straight. Don't feel bad if you believed any of these things, because there are Muslims that believe them too.

I'm making this list in the hopes that people can create stronger arguments and avoid mistakes when debating Islam. It's easy to find a website that will give you ammunition in a debate, but there is mostly nonsense and confusion out there, I'm hoping to clear some of this up.

The Qur'an DOES NOT issue a death penalty for apostasy.*

The Qur'an DOES NOT issue a death penalty for homosexuality.**

The Qur'an DOES NOT issue a death penalty for fornication or adultery.*

The Qur'an DOES NOT promise 72 virgins to anyone under any circumstances.

The Qur'an DOES NOT command Muslims to terrorize non Muslims.

The Qur'an DOES NOT advise or enforce the Burka.

The Qur'an DOES NOT state that men can have sex with pre-pubescent girls.

The Qur'an DOES NOT advise or support honor killings.

The Qur'an DOES NOT slowly change it's message from tolerant to intolerant, the Qur'an is anachronistic.

The Qur'an DOES NOT advise or support honor killings.

The Qur'an DOES NOT order the circumcision of females.

The Qur'an DOES NOT order the circumcision of mailes.*

The Qur'an DOES NOT condemn or dis-advise drawing the prophet of the Muslim faith or anyone else for that matter.

I may add to that list if I'm asked questions about commonly believed fallacies, but until then, here's a list of things that the Qur'an does say.

The Qur'an DOES advise men to beat their wives if they find them rebellious. (4:34)

The Qur'an DOES put men above women. (4:34)

The Qur'an DOES order adulterers and fornicators to be flogged. (24:2)

The Qur'an DOES order the hands of thieves to be chopped off. (5:38)

The Qur'an DOES order the heads of enemies to be cut off in the midst of war. (47:4)

The Qur'an DOES allow Muslims to lie about their faith when compelled to do so. (3:28)

And I'll add more to that list also, upon questioning.

* This is mentioned in Hadith (Traditions) only.
** This was practiced by some followers of Muhammed, after he died.

 

[Nautyskin]

So where do the non-Hadith, non-Qu'ranic (yet clearly Muslim-practiced and legally-sanctioned) edicts originate?

 

[TheFlyingBastard]

So in the islamic faith, where does the Hadith fit in? Is the Hadith still something to be followed?.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

So where do the non-Hadith, non-Qu'ranic (yet clearly Muslim-practiced and legally-sanctioned) edicts originate?

I'd assume it is just like Christianity, where different sects added their own BS to it over the years. Catholics have all sorts of extra-Biblical ceremonies, and there's absolutely nothing in the Bible that compels the Amish to drive horse-drawn buggies and pretend that it is the 17th century.

 

[TheFlyingBastard]

So where do the non-Hadith, non-Qu'ranic (yet clearly Muslim-practiced and legally-sanctioned) edicts originate?

There's absolutely nothing in the Bible that compels the Amish to drive horse-drawn buggies and pretend that it is the 17th century.

Romans 12:2 - Quit being fashioned after this system of things.
1 John 2:15 - Do not be loving either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
James 4:4 - Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.

 

[OnkelCannabia]

So in the islamic faith, where does the Hadith fit in? Is the Hadith still something to be followed?.

The Hadiths are absolute in the minds of the vast majority of Moslems and are part of Islamic law. There might be some sects that do not adhere to the Hadiths (I haven't heard of any, though I'm hardly an expert), but they are probably just a small minority.

 

[lrkun]

To understand the issue better, what is the best source with respect to the islamic faith?

 

[Story]

So where do the non-Hadith, non-Qu'ranic (yet clearly Muslim-practiced and legally-sanctioned) edicts originate?

Going by what "good" Muslims in the past did or would have done. Different kinds of Muslims follow their favourite "good" Muslim, sometimes the things they did contradict each other.

So in the islamic faith, where does the Hadith fit in? Is the Hadith still something to be followed?.

Yes, but in Islam there's a system called the science of Hadith which is basically them trying to determine the authenticity of hadith by checking if anyone in the chain of narrators (Isnad) was a liar.

Romans 12:2 - Quit being fashioned after this system of things.
1 John 2:15 - Do not be loving either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
James 4:4 - Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.

Buggies and horses are still a part of this world.

To understand the issue better, what is the best source with respect to the islamic faith?

It's hard to say, because Muslims don't really follow the Quran and Hadith, they follow what a bunch of guys say. These guys are supposed to get their info from Quran and Hadith, but they have their emotional biases too.


Do you want to know about Islam or Muslims?

 

[lrkun]

It's hard to say, because Muslims don't really follow the Quran and Hadith, they follow what a bunch of guys say. These guys are supposed to get their info from Quran and Hadith, but they have their emotional biases too.


Do you want to know about Islam or Muslims?

I'm more interested in the islam, because that is the issue of this thread. However, with respect to Muslims, I can respect what they think, because it is not their fault that they were deluded to believe into something that is not true.

 

[Story]

It's hard to say, because Muslims don't really follow the Quran and Hadith, they follow what a bunch of guys say. These guys are supposed to get their info from Quran and Hadith, but they have their emotional biases too.


Do you want to know about Islam or Muslims?

I'm more interested in the islam, because that is the issue of this thread. However, with respect to Muslims, I can respect what they think, because it is not their fault that they were deluded to believe into something that is not true.

The best sources are definitely the Quran and Hadith. Everything you'll ever want to find is right here.

You have a Quran Search and Hadith Search.

Translators

Mohsin Khan - Most literal translator, best for understanding the verse yourself.
Yusuf Ali - Most explanatory translator, best for understanding the verse as it's understood by Muslim scholars.
Pikthal - Most basic translator, best for understanding the Quran as most people see it.
Shakir - No comment.

Hadith books to Search.

Bukhari - Believed to be the most authentic book on hadith ever compiled.
Sahih Muslim - About as good as Bukhari.
Abu Dawood - Has some strange stuff, but still considered to be mostly authentic.
Malik's Muwatta - Not sure personally, but Malik is one of those "good" Muslims that some people favour.


The site might not be useful unless you just wanna check out random stuff, but it's really effective for addressing arguments that people spew out. When someone quotes a verse, open it up, click the Quran button at the top and find the verse. If it's ambiguous, open the Quran drop down menu and go to "Tafsir", this will give you an in depth annotation of each verse there is, by a very well respected scholar. Although he has his own biases, especially in regards to the burka, but he's very philosophical otherwise and explains things well.

It's the ultimate resource of Islam to me.

Thought if anyone has doubts about anything at any time just ask me and when this thread dies you can send me a PM.

I think it's really important not to only have an argument against religion, but to have good arguments. Bad arguments just keep religious people religious.

 

[lrkun]

Do you find this equation plausible?

A = koran claims
-B = science evidence to the contrary
-B = -(A + 1) = the required evidence should be more than enough to convince, not only nullify the claim. Therefore, it must be effective in order to so.
C= Desired result which is to illuminate the truth of the matter.

A+(-B) = C

 

[Story]

I feel a bit stupid because I don't follow you completely, but I think you're asking if I agree that science can convince people that the Quran is false, given the right amount of evidence, right?

My answer is that it's definitely plausible, but the Quran makes very few scientific claims, so it's hard and it hasn't worked with Christians, so the likely response is no.

That being said, many Muslims invest their faith in the consistency of the Quran with science, Islam has a rich scientific history. I believe it was Muslims that pioneered the scientific method. So it may prove more effective, but it's hard to say.

 

[lrkun]

I feel a bit stupid because I don't follow you completely, but I think you're asking if I agree that science can convince people that the Quran is false, given the right amount of evidence, right?

My answer is that it's definitely plausible, but the Quran makes very few scientific claims, so it's hard and it hasn't worked with Christians, so the likely response is no.

That being said, many Muslims invest their faith in the consistency of the Quran with science, Islam has a rich scientific history. I believe it was Muslims that pioneered the scientific method. So it may prove more effective, but it's hard to say.

I see, I usually find it easier to communicate the ideas faster if it is written in an equation form.

Anyway, the idea is this. If the quran claims a certain thing (insert quran claim). Is it is possible to debunk it via our current knowledge of science. If not science, something else.

The Qur'an DOES advise men to beat their wives if they find them rebellious. (4:34)

The Qur'an DOES put men above women. (4:34)

The Qur'an DOES order adulterers and fornicators to be flogged. (24:2)

The Qur'an DOES order the hands of thieves to be chopped off. (5:38)

The Qur'an DOES order the heads of enemies to be cut off in the midst of war. (47:4)

This I quote, because I'm curious as how this is consistent with science.

I guess, if one were to peruse the issues, what was the circumstance before, and do they apply now? If yes, why? If no, why? What is the better alternative?

Anyway, you should continue posting what the quran claims to be true. At least, it will grand our fellow forum members to think about better alternatives.

 

[marielee]

Unfortunately, no... This topic isn't about how many mistakes the Qur'an makes, I'm sure none of us are in doubt that there are mistakes in the Qur'an, however I've noticed that the many people that address the problems with Islam tend to assert a lot of things that simply aren't true about the Qur'an.

I'm looking to put together a list to set everyone straight. Don't feel bad if you believed any of these things, because there are Muslims that believe them too.

I'm making this list in the hopes that people can create stronger arguments and avoid mistakes when debating Islam. It's easy to find a website that will give you ammunition in a debate, but there is mostly nonsense and confusion out there, I'm hoping to clear some of this up.

The Qur'an DOES NOT issue a death penalty for apostasy.*

The Qur'an DOES NOT issue a death penalty for homosexuality.**

The Qur'an DOES NOT issue a death penalty for fornication or adultery.*

The Qur'an DOES NOT promise 72 virgins to anyone under any circumstances.

The Qur'an DOES NOT command Muslims to terrorize non Muslims.

The Qur'an DOES NOT advise or enforce the Burka.

The Qur'an DOES NOT state that men can have sex with pre-pubescent girls.

The Qur'an DOES NOT advise or support honor killings.

The Qur'an DOES NOT slowly change it's message from tolerant to intolerant, the Qur'an is anachronistic.

I may add to that list if I'm asked questions about commonly believed fallacies, but until then, here's a list of things that the Qur'an does say.

The Qur'an DOES advise men to beat their wives if they find them rebellious. (4:34)

The Qur'an DOES put men above women. (4:34)

The Qur'an DOES order adulterers and fornicators to be flogged. (24:2)

The Qur'an DOES order the hands of thieves to be chopped off. (5:38)

The Qur'an DOES order the heads of enemies to be cut off in the midst of war. (47:4)

And I'll add more to that list also, upon questioning.

* This is mentioned in Hadith (Traditions) only.
** This was practiced by some followers of Muhammed, after he died.

Ok but what about these from the Quran?

4:76
"Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. Lo! the devil's strategy is ever weak,"

5:33
"The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter,"

8:12-13
"When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger. 13That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment

8:65
"O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand,"

61:4
"Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure,"

Or are the above quotes from the Quran in some sort of context that I'm not realizing or is my source incorrect?



.....

 

[Story]

I see, I usually find it easier to communicate the ideas faster if it is written in an equation form.

Anyway, the idea is this. If the quran claims a certain thing (insert quran claim). Is it is possible to debunk it via our current knowledge of science. If not science, something else.

From an Islamic perspective, maybe...

From a common Muslim perspective, no.

Muhammed was reluctant to carry out some of the Quran's punishments in his life time, often telling people to ask Allah for forgiveness for them instead of punishing them himself. So it's hard to say.

This I quote, because I'm curious as how this is consistent with science.

I guess, if one were to peruse the issues, what was the circumstance before, and do they apply now? If yes, why? If no, why? What is the better alternative?

Well they're merely decrees, what could be contradictory to them? The idea that men are superior to women can sadly be eternally argued when you question what defines "superiority". If you define "superior" as intelligence, your argument will fail, but if you define "superior" as the ability to overpower and subdue the other then you may have an argument.

It will probably come down to semantics in the end, but the problem still remains. Men have been given dominance and authority over women, is that good or bad? Another eternal debate, but the moral zeitgeist leans heavily in our favor, which may be an entirely subjective advantage, but in the end people change their opinions because of their emotions and never because of logic.

Anyway, you should continue posting what the quran claims to be true. At least, it will grand our fellow forum members to think about better alternatives.

Yes, yes... whenever something comes to mind, I shall.

I could do a "What the Hadith DOES say" too, which would provide a much better platform for understanding Muslims.

4:76
"Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. Lo! the devil's strategy is ever weak,"

5:33
"The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter,"

8:12-13
"When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger. 13That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment

8:65
"O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand,"

61:4
"Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure,"

I'm not sure what you're trying to say?

What are these verses supposed to add or take away from my post?

 

[Giliell]

Thanx for your overview

I'd suspected for a long time now that most muslims know as much about the Qu'ran as most christians know about the bible. I remember watching a documentary about a human rights group who fought against female circumcission in Africa. The first thing they did was to go to muslim scholars and religious leaders in order to get a statement that the Qu'ran does not order circumcission.
This, along with some other clever things (like providing alternative job opportunities for circumciserors (does that word exist?)) made them pretty successful.

 

[WarK]

(...) opportunities for circumciserors (does that word exist?)) (..)

yes, but you made a spelling mistake, here it is spelled properly: torturer


@marielee, perhaps you could start new thread with insane quotes from the Bible?

 

[Story]

Good points, here are some extras.



The Qur'an DOES NOT order the circumcision of females.

The Qur'an DOES NOT order the circumcision of mailes.*

And also something worth mentioning.

The Qur'an DOES NOT condemn or dis-advise drawing the prophet of the Muslim faith or anyone else for that matter.

 

[Jotto999]

Very informative! This helps clear up a few things.

I'd suspected for a long time now that most muslims know as much about the Qu'ran as most christians know about the bible.

I agree. I guess not fully knowing your own religion's primitive desert scribblings isn't specific to any religion.

 

[TheFlyingBastard]

Yes, but in Islam there's a system called the science of Hadith which is basically them trying to determine the authenticity of hadith by checking if anyone in the chain of narrators (Isnad) was a liar.

Oh wow. If that happens, how can they even trust the Quran? Wasn't that recited over and over again with changes immediately rectified and thus "kept pure"? Or isn't the Hadith considered inspired/holy the same way the Quran is?

Buggies and horses are still a part of this world.

That's alright. It's not my conviction. It was just a reply to Joe's post of there being nothing in the bible that compels them to live the way they do. There is, and those verses are what compels them to do so.

To understand the issue better, what is the best source with respect to the islamic faith?

Story is. :V
We've got an ex-muslim here who knows his shit and is able, willing and very decent at showing us wtf is going on. I for one am thankful he's here, and I've sent him questions that popped up during my quran reading more than once.