Pursuading people to give up religion...

[desertedcities]

Is almost impossible, I know, but I has an assignment in my writing class that requires persuasion.

The assignment required that I persuade my readers to engage in a particular action that I think would make the world a better place.

Quite obviously I chose the act of forsaking religion, all religion (well, meh, not really all... I have to propose countering views on this, too, after all).

I require articles that pertain to this idea, so far I have some FailTube videos. This is one thing I needs a little help on, these article are eluding me right now.

The other part is interviews of peoples. Two people, but I figure I can get a wider range of (I think, actually, the same) answers from peeps here.

The teach provided questions, too, which I'm going to ask you.

-Do you agree that this issue is both beneficial and important?

-If so, why? If not, why?

-If you've done this action, what results do you feel you achieved?

-Have you ever seen harm come from this action, or do you foresee harm of any kind?

-If you know someone was going to do this, what advice would you give to this person?

And whatever else you want to add.

Oh, and I require these rather quickly.

 

[Rivius]

I don't think I'd be much help, but I've always been a little doubtful of persuading people against religion. Alot of people are religious, for certain reasons such as coping, and it may be their only crutch...sadly. Sure, you can advise them more realistic approaches, but some people are pretty bad with lifestyle changes to begin with, and I can see some people feeling pretty lost withouth their religion.
I had a friend who had some pretty terrible depression and what always seemed to cheer her up were the little things that religion promised her.


I remember when we were doing religious reductionism, that Freud insisted that religion pretty much helped some people to cope, while Karl Marx said it also achieves this and also seeks to control people. I definitely wish some people could be more rational and abandon religion, but I fear that there may actually be alot of people who would struggle without it.

It's a bit of a mixed case really. On one hand, religion may actually prevent people from truly enjoying the beauties of life, while on the other hand, it helps them to deal with the ugly facets of it too.

Although, I'd generally encourage a person who shows alot of independence, and has alot of support to do this.

One warning I'd definitely give to these people, is that even if the illusion of "life's inherent meaning" is suddenly taken from them, they can still find purpose for themselves.


Also, naturally people are going to have to start raising their children properly instead of just scaring them into being good kids. That may present some difficultly since this new generation of parents are pretty damn lazy.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Sounds tough... but last autumn I gave a 12 minute speech persuading people to prepare for a zombie infestation, so this should be a piece of cake by comparison. I also gave a speech on atheism, but just for informative purposes.

Otherwise, it is hard for me to comment on the specific issue, since I've never been a theist. What I would suggest is that, in answering the teacher's questions, you anticipate probable counter-arguments from theists and provide preemptive responses. For instance:

"Some people might say that giving up religion would force them to give up hope for the future, and meaning in our lives. In truth, we all have hopes and dreams that don't depend on religion at all. We all want positive outcomes for ourselves, our loved ones, and the world as a whole. The difference is that when you reject religion, you embrace your responsibility to turn your hopes into reality. If no god is going to do it for us, we have to devote our energy towards doing it for ourselves. In that endeavor, I can see no greater meaning for our lives."

You know, something like that.

 

[desertedcities]

These are the things I was looking for. Not the brain dead answers most other people I asked gave (hell, I already knew the answers when I asked the question).

You both shall be references, in the interviewee sense, I suppose.

Also, Joe, this topic isn't nearly as hard as writing a sermon detailing why Cosby sweaters are sending us to hell. One can only do so much with it. :lol:

 

[JacobEvans]

It truly,truly,truly isn't that hard.

All it requires is that you TALK with who ever you are trying to convince, ALL THE TIME. Be prepared though to look like an ass.

But, I've helped about 5ish very religious people to at least become agnostic.

I mean think about it... Do you really think Christians or other religious people ever really truly discuss Atheism with Atheists? They feel like they already 'know' it's bad to be one, so they just ignore anything they hear about Atheists. This is why they all have the bat-shit idea about what they think Atheists/Naturalists believe.

Just open up discussion, and bring it into their lives and take them out of their comfort zone, and after you present the facts, they often see the light on their own, but don't 'force' it on them, then you're no better than a damn door to door Missionary :lol:

Believe me, it's much easier to do than you'd think, and the least you could end up doing is sparking an interesting discussion. Just be wary of who you might just piss off, as you don't want to be an asshat about it.

 

[scikidus]

last autumn I gave a 12 minute speech persuading people to prepare for a zombie infestation, so this should be a piece of cake by comparison. I also gave a speech on atheism, but just for informative purposes.

I am now fully convinced that these speeches were one and the same.

 

[tetsuo99]

"Some people might say that giving up religion would force them to give up hope for the future, and meaning in our lives."


If this is brought up, it is quite easy to counter if they believe in the Christian god. These people already do not have a hope or meaning for the future. They are not the section of the populace concerned with cleaning up the earth and making it a better place for us to live, because they believe their zombie Jew is coming back to take them to the invisible yellow brick road in the sky. Their only meaning in life is to sit around as the world goes to shit because they are of no help to bettering it, all while waiting for some faerie tale character to take them to some 'paradise' afterlife of servitude where they wont remember anything of their previous life. Wouldn't that alone make life meaningless. They blow my mind. Perhaps if you could blow theirs you could get a couple to open their eyes.

 

[WolfAU]

Why would forsaking religion make the world a better place...
- Most systemic national divisions and rivalries would be solved or greatly eased.
- Radical political movements fueled by religion would be greatly weakened.
- Alot of twisted morality based on theistic teachings would be adressed.
- It would boost various forms of social and technological process, with us able to quickly accept common issues (ie issues of human rights etc).
- It would break through alot of anti-intellectualism and the 'culture of ignorance' fueled by religion.
- You can talk about issues of secularist beliefs, and why are some religions damaging (more damaging than others), how are some religions helpful or how are all religions destructive.

How to convince people to give up faith...
- Unfortunately it is essentially impossible, as while most atheists accept the issue of evidence (ie to believe something and act based on it you should be able to give evidence, if you cannot would should question the belief and likely not act on it) theists do not, and usually feel that evidence is optional, as such if they take that stance they are really beyond hope.
- In my experience, arguing origins (ie abiogenesis, evolution, big bang etc) is not effective, as such I generally argue philosophical issues that religion raises (such as problem of evil, the problem of determinism vs free will and inconsistancies in the bible etc).
- Generally the best way is to start by understanding their motives (asking them questions like 'what do you get out of religion') the answer to that indicates why they are resisting conversion. There is also the issue that most theists are raised that way (making their belief systems integrated into who they are) and also risk things like family disapproval if they leave the faith.
- There are issues of regional factors (ie living in the American bible belt can risk social disapproval), and there are issues like people feel they need to believe in God to keep their morality in check (as such it is good to try to break that mindset).
- A good issue to raise is that if theists believe the bible and God are the true source of morality, than how can God be defined as good and the bible as a source for good morality. And if that is the case, why does the bible have things we accept as not moral like sexism, slavery, violence and injustice. If the above was the case then theists would consider these things moral when they usually don't (start off asking them if they think slavery is moral), and if that is the case then we are cherry picking the bible, which indicates some source of morality external to religion.
- Generally its a case of 'you can show them the truth, but in the end it falls to them to see it for themselves'. For that reason usually the best action is to encourage them to look into sources of knowledge and new perspectives rather than saying 'this is the truth', as converting a theist will not happen overnight and they in the end have to make the decision for themselves.
- Ask questions, get to understand the specifics of their belief (and ask them things like 'why don't they believer this or this'), understand some concepts about secular morality and philosophy.
- A good argument is to argue why they believe their specific religion is right.
- Does God have the characteristics assigned to him (why this is impossible). Is he just, why... why is eternal bliss justified when all humans are fallable, and why is eternal agony justified for finite crimes, particularly for simply believing in other faiths or lacking belief.

I went to a religious school for alot of my life and have some experience in debating theistic issues, so if you have adiditional questions go for it. Also theres some good stuff in the old forumshere and particularly this

 

[Sparky]

Hmmm.... I don't think religion is inherently bad, just that it can be misused by leaders of communities, countries, etc. As someone pointed out religion can help some people. I am of the view that for some people religion can be a placebo in that they think someone is looking out for them and this helps them create their own luck and behave in a better manner. Often convicts in prison "find God" and are better people as a result. It does't matter that what they believe is false or not - their behaviour and attitude to others is better as a result. Also, when sick it helps to have a good mental state in order to get better quicker. Religion can provide this for believers. I am not hugely for the conversion of the religious for these reasons. Of course some people will use religion to try and achieve their own will and this is what you should write about for your point as it is quite a good point for an atheistic world but on the flip side you should say that the majority of people or at lest many people can get a positive effect from religion in the ways I previously described.

 

[Abi]

As someone pointed out religion can help some people.

Yes. a few. But are those people being "saved" really worth going through several dark ages for? Are they worth religious nuts thinking they'll go to heaven and then starting a nuclear war? Cancer might have been "good" for some people (helped them enjoy life due to realization that it can be lost in an instant or something), but does that mean we should never release a cure for it?

 

[Sparky]

Yes. a few. But are those people being "saved" really worth going through several dark ages for? Are they worth religious nuts thinking they'll go to heaven and then starting a nuclear war? Cancer might have been "good" for some people (helped them enjoy life due to realization that it can be lost in an instant or something), but does that mean we should never release a cure for it?

I know. I agree that religion can be misused. I did say this. I guess it depends on how much freedom you allow religious people to pursue their religious goals. As long as their goals don't involve harming others I don't have a problem. I know that the rest of my family are theists and have no real problem with me being atheist and are not violent or wish to reconvert me and I think this is fine. I believe you are getting at militant theism which, like you, I am very much against. To think that your religion gives you the right to harm/destroy other people is quite frankly sick and wrong.