Protest in NY: "Occupy Wall Street"

[UrbanMasque]

If you're unable to articulate why you're out there, perhaps you should've smoked fewer joints.

Sweet! More pot smoking affluent/hippy angsty teenage protester assumptions. Its always good to patronize the group that you might need to call upon for support in the future.

Honestly, I could give a shit about what they are protesting - or what causes you championed. I'm saying - if violence or the threat of violence wasn't involved in BOTH cases - ultimately NOTHING was accomplished.

oh yea... your view is bunk.

 

[Prolescum]

Sweet! More pot smoking affluent/hippy angsty teenage protester assumptions. Its always good to patronize the group that you might need to call upon for support in the future.

So the protesters are what, the working classes? Housewives? Unionists? Who else goes to protest nebulous causes with gusto? Secondly, why would I need the support of random Americans?

Honestly, I could give a shit about what they are protesting - or what causes you championed. I'm saying - if violence or the threat of violence wasn't involved in BOTH cases - ultimately NOTHING was accomplished.

Do you mean you couldn't give a shit? Impressive retort.
As for your assertion that the threat of violence is the only sure way of accomplishing such goals, you're utterly misinformed. I'd school you, but it's unlikely you'd be receptive to anything sensible.

oh yea... your view is bunk.

What a hearty, full-fledged argument. You must be a real hit with the nursery crowd.

 

[UrbanMasque]

Secondly, why would I need the support of random Americans?

I don't know - i just figured with a name like Prolescum the idea of solidarity for the rights of the working class wouldn't be lost on you, but I guess I was wrong.

As for your assertion that the threat of violence is the only sure way of accomplishing such goals, you're utterly misinformed. I'd school you, but it's unlikely you'd be receptive to anything sensible.

I'm all ears.

 

[televator]

I also don't give a flying fuck what kind of response you prefer; I don't post to order, but to express my view. Don't like it? Don't fucking respond or tell me why my view is bunk.

Says the guy who always feels free to tell anyone that their views are bunk... What's the matter Prole? Don't like it when it's you under the knife?

Sorry, but this is the biggest hypocritical statement I've heard you spout.

Also, I don't really care if you or anyone else likes it especially in light of the state of things here in the US and how these protest on large issues are rather new to this generation of libs. Take the tea party. They started off rather ambiguously as being "against taxes" and that was pretty much it. Later on they were able to maintain cohesion to demonstrate on more specific issues. They were there in AZ to counter protest for SB 1070, in Washington DC against healthcare reform, and any number of specific issues since they first showed their ugly xenophobic mugs. They've also captured the attention of many politicians, and even Obama has paid them attention.

I think these Occupy protest can also serve to create a sort of platform/network like that as well...only one that isn't full of bigoted hypocrites.

When this comes to Arizona, I will attend their meet and show my support.

 

[Prolescum]

@televator

I meant to put a comma there, as in don't respond or do tell me why I'm wrong. I'm using my phone.

@the other guy

Solidarity with what? What are they protesting? What are their goals?

 

[UrbanMasque]

@the other guy

Solidarity with what? What are they protesting? What are their goals?

I'm assuming the usual - economic disparities, the bailout of banks while working people lose their livelihoods, and the government's lack of response to the plight of the masses. Again I'm not really sure, but I'm not concerned as much with the message as I am with the method used to achieve the goal.

Soooo this is the last time I answer you, because I'm still waiting to be reeducated on the effectiveness of non-violent protests. I'd also love to know how you personally stuck it to the man in the 90's.

Love,
the other guy

 

[televator]

I meant to put a comma there, as in don't respond or do tell me why I'm wrong. I'm using my phone.

I'll just take your word for it...

Anyway, I don't think you'd judge them so harshly and dismissively if you actually lived here. There's so much frustration over corporate control of our government and resources, and there has been next to nothing done about it. It needs to start somehow and somewhere. It doesn't need to be professional and tidy. Also, I think the perception of "lacking a message" and "bunch of nouveau pot head hippies" is largely due to the lack of coverage.

They claim that they are part of the 99% of Americans voicing discontent with the top 1% who don't pay taxes, don't create jobs, and generally just don't contribute to the well being of this country like the rest of the citizenry. You ask me, I think the numbers are off. Pretty sure it's more like the top 10% who make up the ruling class, but that's a minor thing in my eyes. Yet they do so as what is actually quite diverse and non-stereotypical group compared to the largely homogenous tea party.

 

[Prolescum]

Right, back home now. Proper keyboard.

Also, I don't really care if you or anyone else likes it especially in light of the state of things here in the US and how these protest on large issues are rather new to this generation of libs.

I'm not sure they're learning a valuable lesson, mate.

Take the tea party. They started off rather ambiguously as being "against taxes" and that was pretty much it. Later on they were able to maintain cohesion to demonstrate on more specific issues.

They were initially complaining about taxes 'til they were dominated by a charismatic leader (Sarah Palin) and shifted priorities accordingly, backing people like Christine O'Donnell, and are now being absorbed by the Republicans; I don't think that's the kind of thing you want to emulate...

I think these Occupy protest can also serve to create a sort of platform/network like that as well...only one that isn't full of bigoted hypocrites.

I can't argue with that.

I'm assuming the usual

Meaning your guess is as good as mine.

economic disparities

A valid cause, but not one I've heard specifically related to this event. Okay, apparently this is one.

the bailout of banks while working people lose their livelihoods

So the bailout from three years ago... bit late isn't it?

and the government's lack of response to the plight of the masses.

Which plight? If they had a cause, I'd listen.

Again I'm not really sure

Then we share a condition.

but I'm not concerned as much with the message as I am with the method used to achieve the goal.

If there were a goal...

Soooo this is the last time I answer you, because I'm still waiting to be reeducated on the effectiveness of non-violent protests.

Some within recent memory:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velvet_Revolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Revolution

I'd also love to know how you personally stuck it to the man in the 90's.

I bet you would.

I'll just take your word for it...

If you can point me to a place where I've been anything other than honest, please, I'd like to know.

As for your other points, I'll keep paying attention for now

 

[televator]

As am I, especially given the amount of dialogue generated by the G20 summit.
I take the lack of activity as people acknowledging the situation for what it is and finding it harder and harder to rationalize peaceful demonstration.

[/quote]

That would be....surprising. I mean really? The LoR no longer finds peaceful demonstration as viable in the US?

 

[UrbanMasque]

I love how you pick and choose trying to invalidate the LARGER message of what I was saying. It seems to fit in with you missing the bigger picture by concentrating on a phrase here, or particular wording there. I guess you need to hear ideas concretely in order to decide where you fall in the scheme of things. Fine. The general message I'm ASSUMING is that people are protesting the economic disparity in the US between those who have (and are keeping), and those who have not (and are losing what little they have). Again, I'm GUESSING that they want some kind of balance (Who are they? You're going to have to ask each individual protesting - why THEY are protesting). Again, I'm not debating the Why, I'm debating the How.

Prole, why do you think all movements need a centralized message or leader? Do you need someone to speak up for you? Make concessions you didn't agree upon on your behalf? A figure head to give your cause a voice?

I like how you snub your nose at these protesters as immature and having no ideology - but lets be honest, you have to be THICK not to understand why they are upset.

 

[Prolescum]

Ah, I love a good caps-lock before bed.

I love how you pick and choose trying to invalidate the LARGER message of what I was saying. It seems to fit in with you missing the bigger picture by concentrating on a phrase here, or particular wording there. I guess you need to hear ideas concretely in order to decide where you fall in the scheme of things. Fine. The general message I'm ASSUMING is that people are protesting the economic disparity in the US between those who have (and are keeping), and those who have not (and are losing what little they have). Again, I'm GUESSING that they want some kind of balance (Who are they? You're going to have to ask each individual protesting - why THEY are protesting). Again, I'm not debating the Why, I'm debating the How.

I haven't been picking or choosing, there is common consent that the protesters have not clarified their aims, and I responded to your guesses individually before addressing your "larger" message; the how. I gave you two examples off the top of my head that showed your assertion to be flawed.

Prole, why do you think all movements need a centralized message or leader?

I didn't say all movements need a centralised message or leader.

Do you need someone to speak up for you?

Depends on the context. I can't just go and have a chat with David Cameron, for instance.

Make concessions you didn't agree upon on your behalf?

Depends on the context. I can think of a number of reasons why I would consider allowing a representative to make concessions/decisions on my behalf.

A figure head to give your cause a voice?

Again, it depends on context. You're not very good at this, are you...?

I like how you snub your nose at these protesters as immature and having no ideology

I didn't say they were immature, nor did I say they had no ideology. I said they (the sophomores and hippies or whatever) have no evident goals.

but lets be honest, you have to be THICK not to understand why they are upset.

There's nothing I can do about the general upset of people on the other side of the Atlantic, and without a concrete reason, I see no point advocating for it.

 

[televator]

I love how you pick and choose trying to invalidate the LARGER message of what I was saying. It seems to fit in with you missing the bigger picture by concentrating on a phrase here, or particular wording there. I guess you need to hear ideas concretely in order to decide where you fall in the scheme of things. Fine. The general message I'm ASSUMING is that people are protesting the economic disparity in the US between those who have (and are keeping), and those who have not (and are losing what little they have). Again, I'm GUESSING that they want some kind of balance (Who are they? You're going to have to ask each individual protesting - why THEY are protesting). Again, I'm not debating the Why, I'm debating the How.

Are you talking to me or Prole here? ....Fuck! This thread just suddenly got full of tricky nuance!

 

[televator]

They were initially complaining about taxes 'til they were dominated by a charismatic leader (Sarah Palin) and shifted priorities accordingly, backing people like Christine O'Donnell, and are now being absorbed by the Republicans; I don't think that's the kind of thing you want to emulate...

Now there's some substance. Prole I do think you bring up a legitimate concern here, but given that these protests are not reducible to corporate sock puppetry and that the general mood is against the interests that have gotten most current leaders elected in the first place, I think there's a good chance this movement could develop along a much more independent path than the Tea party.

 

[Prolescum]

They were initially complaining about taxes 'til they were dominated by a charismatic leader (Sarah Palin) and shifted priorities accordingly, backing people like Christine O'Donnell, and are now being absorbed by the Republicans; I don't think that's the kind of thing you want to emulate...

Now there's some substance. Prole I do think you bring up a legitimate concern here, but given that these protests are not reducible to corporate sock puppetry

They said that about grunge music too :cry:

and that the general mood is against the interests that have gotten most current leaders elected in the first place, I think there's a good chance this movement could develop along a much more independent path than the Tea party.

I'd like to believe it, but it's hard. It seems to be missing the traction required to keep up momentum long enough for people to get their shit together. I've probably been a little unfair, but not by that much...

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I think this is food for thought:

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/09/28/protests

 

[televator]

I think this is food for thought:

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/09/28/protests

That's a very good opinion article. I like the way it addresses the criticism from the left. It reminded me of the RATM song "Bullet in the Head" for some reason.

 

[televator]

Relevant video. This guy speaks the truth and some people insist this is a hoax...

 

[Aught3]

IDK if anyone really cares to know (I'm a little disappointed in the lack of activity in this thread)

Well I'm interested and reading along but since I'm in general agreement I don't really have much to add. I also don't watch youtube videos so I'm probably missing out on the best stuff.

 

[kenandkids]

At least the NYPD is now admitting that reckless and wanton pepper-spraying of random people might not be something defensible...

 

[televator]

Well I'm interested and reading along but since I'm in general agreement I don't really have much to add. I also don't watch youtube videos so I'm probably missing out on the best stuff.

Well yes, you are missing out on much of what is covered, and given the paltry media coverage so far, it is a big percentage of the overall imagery coming from this. But what do you mean you don't watch youtube vids? That statement almost seems impossible.

On another note: Anybody notice the silence from Washington? I bet Obama prays that he never has to address this or even pretend to care about it. Oh gosh, how inconvenient this will be for him...

Edit:
Unions joining the fray


I'm very happy particularly about the US Postal Service looking to join. Seeing how the rethuglicans severely sabotaged the service into an enormous deficit -- after a history of working on a surplus -- now they can trust on an additional means to spread a message in the occupation.