Practical Nihilism and the Nihilistic Epiphany

[Yfelsung]

Hi, my name is Yfelsung and I am a practical nihilist. What is practical nihilism? Well, it's nihilism on a level that doesn't cause you to curl into a ball and lament the pointlessness of it all. It's sort of, as Camus alludes to, accepting that reality is absurd and just trying your best to live well anyway.

Now, I've been a nihilist for probably my whole life though obviously I didn't know how to define it until I was a teenager. Most philosophers in history have always described nihilism as being a negative/harmful view because they only really thought about passive nihilism (the curl into a ball type) but modern nihilism has evolved into something a bit different.

When I first signed up to this site I had kind of fallen out of my nihilistic tendencies and began becoming an idealist. Becoming more concerned with what could be instead of what is, and this lead to me being pretty pissy most of the time. This usually happens to me once every few years until I have what I call a "nihilistic epiphany". I hit an emotional rock-bottom and then like a punch to the face everything sort of "clicks".

It's the point where the absurdity of the universe hits you like a brick in the head. It's a small glimpse of the universe in a mostly objective way instead of a subjective way. It's seeing objects as less than the sum of their parts. Looking at a human being and seeing atoms, not a person.

Now I assume I can't be the only person this happens to, so I am curious as to how this sort of event affects a non-nihilist. Do any theists ever struggle with the apparently pointless nature of existence? What does a non-nihilistic atheist do when they have a nihilistic epiphany that prevents them from becoming a nihilist?

Would you personally be depressed as a nihilist or happy about it?

 

[ArthurWilborn]

I simply find Nihilism is an unworkable philosophy. I can't do anything with it; therefore I reject it.

 

[Yfelsung]

I simply find Nihilism is an unworkable philosophy. I can't do anything with it; therefore I reject it.

What do you find unworkable about it?

 

[ArthurWilborn]

I simply find Nihilism is an unworkable philosophy. I can't do anything with it; therefore I reject it.

What do you find unworkable about it?

Well, very generally; if everyone is atoms and everything is meaningless, what am I supposed to do with that information? Go on a rampage? Have no hope? Screw everyone over? Stop caring? None of these things help me in any way; the best I can do is try to ignore the emptiness of all things and move on as if things mattered. If I'm already doing that, I might as well reject nihilism and adopt a pragmatic philosophy. Even if it is ultimately meaningless, it allows me to help myself.

Sorry for being inexact.

 

[Yfelsung]

That's a valid point and generally what leads people to passive or negative nihilism. When faced with meaningless, they either despair or they become unable to decide what to do.

Generally an active, positive or practical nihilist takes the same thing but comes to a different conclusion: If everything is simply matter and energy, and everything is meaningless, what should I do? Whatever the fuck I please.

You see, I would call pragmatism a form of active or positive nihilism. Since no action is inherently better or worse, do whatever one works and benefits you most (or benefits whatever it is you desire to benefit, or cause harm to whatever you might desire to cause harm.)

True, full, existential nihilism is hard to apply to life but active/positive/practical nihilism is taking the same conclusion and applying it with knowledge like "orgasms feel good". One does not need a reason for orgasms to be good, and they're not good in a universal sense, but they create a good feeling in most people so run with it.

The reason I wouldn't call what I do simply "pragmatism" is that pragmatism doesn't describe why I'm pragmatic or what I believe while nihilism describes quite well a large range of things I do not believe in. Sort of like atheism+.

 

[Prolescum]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdism

 

[Yfelsung]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdism

I land somewhere between traditional definitions of absurdism and nihilism.

On that little graph my answers would go:

Yes (but not intrinsic or inherent)
No
Yes, but it is not essential
No, and the pursuit itself is meaningless
Maybe
No, but there doesn't need to be one anyway.

 

[Andiferous]

Sorry, Yfelsung.

In the end this sort of thing seems like merely a way to separate oneself from humanity, reality, and our collective problems; it's evasive by nature and an easy way out.

I think it takes a lot more strength to recognise some of these concepts and maintain faith in humanity, while giving some of yourself to compassion and empathy. You can only advance on truth when taking risks, no?

Actually, being a robot is not that difficult to do. Being a human is a hell of a lot more challenging.

 

[AdmiralPeacock]

I tend to view things not really having inherent value, but potential value (imposed by the viewer) - or in an impersonal sense, relativistic value between different viewers.
The universe's value moot - everything in the universe need the universe to exist, so it is invaluable (love it, hate it, desire to destroy it, ignore it - it value is based on your existence gives it value)

Meaning is dependent on a personal perspective - a rock does not concern its self with the value of the gold locked away in its depths. We perceive meaning because we want to; it's not necessarily inherent , it may only exist for the length of someone's attention - but it's there.

 

[Andiferous]

I simply find Nihilism is an unworkable philosophy. I can't do anything with it; therefore I reject it.

What do you find unworkable about it?

I apologise for speaking out of turn, here. It is largely unworkable because it gives little room for optimism and resolution. It's all fine and good to think 'oh, everything is so terrible' (curl into a ball, you called it). Most of us learn through experience to be a bit more pragmatic through experience. What is the point of forming a conclusion if you've no plan to address it?

I happen to have a highly deconstructive personal philosophy; but there is something to be said for experience, interaction and wisdom that can't be found by destroying theory.

 

[lrkun]

It's up to us to find our own purpose for being.

 

[Skillbus]

I can't think of a world that you could say had meaning built into it. Nihilism seems tautological to me, if only because the idea of "absolute, objective meaning" that it rejects is a contradiction. But, that definition of meaning has never mattered to me. Things matter to me because I am essentially a robot programmed to do certain things, and that is perfectly fine with me. That knowledge doesn't make me care about those things any less. Rebelling against my "programming" seems really pointless to me, because it wouldn't achieve any of the goals that my "programming" makes me seek, obviously.

 

[Yfelsung]

I apologise for speaking out of turn, here. It is largely unworkable because it gives little room for optimism and resolution. It's all fine and good to think 'oh, everything is so terrible' (curl into a ball, you called it). Most of us learn through experience to be a bit more pragmatic through experience. What is the point of forming a conclusion if you've no plan to address it?

I happen to have a highly deconstructive personal philosophy; but there is something to be said for experience, interaction and wisdom that can't be found by destroying theory.

But does one need optimism? Pessimism and optimism are just two flawed ways of looking at things. The universe is neither bad nor good, it simply is. Things will not always turn out okay and they won't always turn out bad. Only you have the ability to shape your life.

 

[lrkun]

I apologise for speaking out of turn, here. It is largely unworkable because it gives little room for optimism and resolution. It's all fine and good to think 'oh, everything is so terrible' (curl into a ball, you called it). Most of us learn through experience to be a bit more pragmatic through experience. What is the point of forming a conclusion if you've no plan to address it?

I happen to have a highly deconstructive personal philosophy; but there is something to be said for experience, interaction and wisdom that can't be found by destroying theory.

But does one need optimism? Pessimism and optimism are just two flawed ways of looking at things. The universe is neither bad nor good, it simply is. Things will not always turn out okay and they won't always turn out bad. Only you have the ability to shape your life.

This one reminds me of stoicism. I recommend the book by marcus aurelius on the subject. It's titled The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius. It's free and available on the net. Google it, I think you'll like it.

 

[ArthurWilborn]

That's a valid point and generally what leads people to passive or negative nihilism. When faced with meaningless, they either despair or they become unable to decide what to do.

Generally an active, positive or practical nihilist takes the same thing but comes to a different conclusion: If everything is simply matter and energy, and everything is meaningless, what should I do? Whatever the fuck I please.

You see, I would call pragmatism a form of active or positive nihilism. Since no action is inherently better or worse, do whatever one works and benefits you most (or benefits whatever it is you desire to benefit, or cause harm to whatever you might desire to cause harm.)

True, full, existential nihilism is hard to apply to life but active/positive/practical nihilism is taking the same conclusion and applying it with knowledge like "orgasms feel good". One does not need a reason for orgasms to be good, and they're not good in a universal sense, but they create a good feeling in most people so run with it.

The reason I wouldn't call what I do simply "pragmatism" is that pragmatism doesn't describe why I'm pragmatic or what I believe while nihilism describes quite well a large range of things I do not believe in. Sort of like atheism+.

You've taken the inverse of the route I have to your conclusion.

You see the lack of inherent meaning of the universe as a liscence to abdicate any sense of responsiblity you might have.

I've taken the lack of inherent meaning to say that responsibility falls upon me, and generally upon all humans. This has led me to something akin to secular humanism.

 

[Yfelsung]

Oddly enough, I consider aspects of my belief structure to mirror secular humanism but in one very different way. Instead of looking at the individual human, I look at the species as a whole. Mostly it has come from wanting to shape society into a form I believe I would have more benefits and power but I also see my social order as an increase in human power in general.

I'd like to see our species colonize space and I think the best way to do that is to not bring everyone but instead bring the best. Instead of advocating the death of those I don't personally consider "fit" I advocate the segregation of those I do. Kind of the idea of taking all the smartest and healthiest people and leaving the planet to the rest. So, in a sense, I am very humanist, just on a macro level.

A lot of my motivations come down to what I would find most entertaining or interesting.

 

[ArthurWilborn]

Oddly enough, I consider aspects of my belief structure to mirror secular humanism but in one very different way. Instead of looking at the individual human, I look at the species as a whole. Mostly it has come from wanting to shape society into a form I believe I would have more benefits and power but I also see my social order as an increase in human power in general.

I'd like to see our species colonize space and I think the best way to do that is to not bring everyone but instead bring the best. Instead of advocating the death of those I don't personally consider "fit" I advocate the segregation of those I do. Kind of the idea of taking all the smartest and healthiest people and leaving the planet to the rest. So, in a sense, I am very humanist, just on a macro level.

A lot of my motivations come down to what I would find most entertaining or interesting.

This is a non-starter for me, as I consider space colonization to be ridiculously unlikely. This kind of class structure has previously proven to be deleterious to society on Earth, and thus should be avoided.

 

[Andiferous]

.

I apologise for speaking out of turn, here. It is largely unworkable because it gives little room for optimism and resolution. It's all fine and good to think 'oh, everything is so terrible' (curl into a ball, you called it). Most of us learn through experience to be a bit more pragmatic through experience. What is the point of forming a conclusion if you've no plan to address it?

I happen to have a highly deconstructive personal philosophy; but there is something to be said for experience, interaction and wisdom that can't be found by destroying theory.

But does one need optimism? Pessimism and optimism are just two flawed ways of looking at things. The universe is neither bad nor good, it simply is. Things will not always turn out okay and they won't always turn out bad. Only you have the ability to shape your life.

I suggest that optimism is a tool somewhat psychologically important when juggling these ideas that are potentially very depressing; and if you mean to invest yourself in the world around you, I would say, it is almost critical.

We're psychological beings, to say otherwise would be delusion. Pessimism and Optimism operate on you whether or not you acknowledge their existence; and being perfectly neutral is somewhat a pipe dream.

 

[Yfelsung]

I suggest that optimism is a tool somewhat psychologically important when juggling these ideas that are potentially very depressing; and if you mean to invest yourself in the world around you, I would say, it is almost critical.

We're psychological beings, to say otherwise would be delusion. Pessimism and Optimism operate on you whether or not you acknowledge their existence; and being perfectly neutral is somewhat a pipe dream.

Well yes, obviously one will be naturally pessimistic or optimistic but since it's out of our control, being a nihilist doesn't make it impossible to be an optimist. I can still be optimistic about the small things. Sure, the universe and life itself seems pointless, but we do all kinds of pointless stuff as humans anyway, so just because I have assigned ultimate meaninglessness to the universe itself doesn't mean I'm depressed about it.

What I mean by a lack of optimism or pessimism is more a lack of belief that my attitude will have anything to do with the outcome of a given task or situation. If I work hard, I will likely succeed. If I do not, I will likely fail. It's the idea that I forge my own life and destiny without anything like karma coming into play.

I see no purpose in being depressed about reality, no matter how bad, as it won't change anything. Sometimes I do become depressed, yes, but I actually find my depression more common when I am thinking in non-nihilistic ways.

It's an idea that's not "everything will turn out fine" and it's also not "everything will turn out bad"; it's the understanding that things will turn out exactly as the variables involved in the situation determine they will, so don't try to change a situation with a smile and a happy thought, change it by manipulating the variables efficiently and as precisely as possible to achieve your desired outcome.

And, in the end, no matter how bad things turn out you can always remember it doesn't really matter anyway, so let it slide off you and move on.

 

[Saul]

I simply find Nihilism is an unworkable philosophy. I can't do anything with it; therefore I reject it.

The fact that you've approached the philosophy of nihilism from a standpoint of the philosophy of pragmatism suggests you've probably missed the point.