Pipe-Dream Legislation

[BoganUSAFFLClerk]

Tobacco deaths don't have the potential for exponential growth, nor do they have the potential to grow worse on a case by case basis through evolutionary means, for the aforementioned reasons.

Current statistics show Tobacco kills far more than Corona virus. Whatever potential Corona virus supposedly has is a theory nothing more. Even still People don't exactly panic over Tobacco and people still choose to take on the extra risks associated with Nicotine simply for the the high or the experience. People still choose to not wear a mask or get vaccinated for the experience of not putting up with the mask thing or getting vaccinated and taking risks associated with the vaccine depending on your age group etc. It is no different in my reasoning as to why people choose to take extra risk or choose to minimize risk.

A sentiment that doesn't hold true for Covid, for the aforementioned reasons.

There are pockets of safety regarding Covid as we are speaking about vaccinations. Vaccinations help prevent the spread of the disease and so yes there would be pockets of safety relative to the number of vaccinated (I believe this is the general argument you are making so why contest this?). If you want to minimize risk move to a state that simply has more figures regarding vaccinations.

You say this as if it isn't possible for you to get a free vaccine and wear a mask in public. I can't mitigate the risks involved in dealing with crime, because that would require massive infrastructure change by government that would take years or even decades to accomplish, and in the meantime I still need to go to work. You could get over yourself and wear a mask, and just like that the risk posed to other people who need to do things decreases.

Ah ok Mr. expert you don't think there is any time where you shouldn't a wear mask? What about when you are teaching people firearms handling?

You don't think it is important to be able to hear and see while handling a firearm at a range? What about learning general handling or draw strokes? When you wear a mask a gaiter or anything that forces your breath into yourself you are basically forcing your glasses to fog up and limiting the volume of your speech.

If you teach and people can't hear you because they wear hearing protection and a mask then guess what they can't hear you. If you teach people and they are wearing eye protection then when it fogs up that is one more distraction and means the shooter can't see properly. That is dangerous and stupid to a degree far more than simply not wearing a mask and getting Covid.

I'm far more concerned with people violating gun safety rules than breathing Covid particles on me because I am around 1-2 other people. Use critical thinking and gain perspective this mask nonsense makes people stupid and lose perspective and makes people not consider other things that they should hold more important like gun handling or simply not passing out in a hot car by themselves in a vehicle and hitting a pole and dying.

 

[Greg the Grouper]

Current statistics show Tobacco kills far more than Corona virus. Whatever potential Corona virus supposedly has is a theory nothing more.

Not really...?
So, wait. What part of this are you stuck on? Do you not understand disease transmission? Do you not understand the evolutionary process? Which part of this is 'theoretical' in your mind?

Even still People don't exactly panic over Tobacco and people still choose to take on the extra risks associated with Nicotine simply for the the high or the experience.

I don't have any particular qualms with someone smoking, even when it demonstrably harms them. Doing something that facillitates the spread of a contagion that then harms other people is another matter entirely.

People still choose to not wear a mask or get vaccinated for the experience of not putting up with the mask thing or getting vaccinated and taking risks associated with the vaccine depending on your age group etc. It is no different in my reasoning as to why people choose to take extra risk or choose to minimize risk.

I suppose we'll just ignore that smoking isn't transmitted from one person to another, that nicotine addiction is a thing that happens, that smoking is more easily detected than Covid, and so on?

I suppose we'll also just ignore the anti-vaxxer movement and the general misinformation spread by the White House as reasons for why people acted the way they did. Not as though people were taking hydroxychloroquine to treat Covid at a certain someone's behest, or anything.

There are pockets of safety regarding Covid as we are speaking about vaccinations. Vaccinations help prevent the spread of the disease and so yes there would be pockets of safety relative to the number of vaccinated (I believe this is the general argument you are making so why contest this?). If you want to minimize risk move to a state that simply has more figures regarding vaccinations.

Oh, right. Pick up and move. I'm sorry, I forgot that everyone has the ability to just pick up and move.

Who would do this, by the way? The vaccinated? Their presence is beneficial to the community in question, as increased vaccinations in a community is how said community achieves herd immunization. Are the unvaccinated moving? If they're that concerned, then why don't they opt for the much cheaper, much more reliable alternative of getting vaccinated? Are people who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons moving? How does that help them, when they have little choice but to rely on the remaining populace to keep them safe, and apparently we're all just picking up and moving, now?

So going back to the beginning, is it safe to say that transmission is what you're not understanding? Because it seems weird to counter an infectious contagion by having potential carriers of said contagion spread out to other populations. Were you aware that that was essentially your solution?

Not that your solution is a solution, mind you, for reasons explained to you by someone else: the unvaccinated are a breeding ground. Your existence gives this virus the capacity to evolve through successive generations; what happens if genetic drift results in the manifestation of a strain unaffected by existing vaccines?

Ah ok Mr. expert you don't think there is any time where you shouldn't a wear mask?

I'm not really sure where I said that, nor am I sure of why you'd cling so hard to it as an excuse. Do you honestly expect me to believe, after multiple conversations, after your claims that people should just pick up and move to avoid a pandemic and your stance in previous threads that the CDC keeps flitting back and forth on mask regulations, not to mention a demonstrated misunderstanding of what the mask is even meant to do in the first place, that you always make sure to wear a mask in public and maintain social distancing? Somehow, I doubt it.

What about when you are teaching people firearms handling?

I imagine you possess the capacity to speak clearly and loudly. Masks don't act as ear plugs. If you annunciate, people will understand you.

You don't think it is important to be able to hear and see while handling a firearm at a range?

If you're doing this at a range, the mask is the least of your problems. Personally I'd imagine that the sound of gunfire would be a bigger issue, concerning whether or not anyone can hear anyone else.

What about learning general handling or draw strokes? When you wear a mask a gaiter or anything that forces your breath into yourself you are basically forcing your glasses to fog up and limiting the volume of your speech.

If you teach and people can't hear you because they wear hearing protection and a mask then guess what they can't hear you. If you teach people and they are wearing eye protection then when it fogs up that is one more distraction and means the shooter can't see properly. That is dangerous and stupid to a degree far more than simply not wearing a mask and getting Covid.

I'm far more concerned with people violating gun safety rules than breathing Covid particles on me because I am around 1-2 other people. Use critical thinking and gain perspective this mask nonsense makes people stupid and lose perspective and makes people not consider other things that they should hold more important like gun handling or simply not passing out in a hot car by themselves in a vehicle and hitting a pole and dying.

I agree; practice critical thinking. Maybe then, you could sit 1-2 people down in a room six feet apart, without any kind of hearing protection, while explaining the mechanics of a gun as well as proper handling, before putting on masks, venturing over to a shooting range, having those same people take their masks off once at their station, and practice with their firearms as you walk around wearing your mask, observing general behavior and posture and correcting where needed.

It's a mask. I'm not asking you to suit up like you're some 40K Space Marine. You can don and doff a mask in a matter of seconds.

 

[Deleted member 619]

a theory nothing more

 

[Deleted member 619]

Use critical thinking

This interests me.

What do you mean by it? Critical important? Critical necessary? What's critical about it?

Please explain. Nothing interests me more than thinking. It's what I spend all my time thinking about, and this intrigues me. I wait at the feet of the master.

 

[Sparhafoc]

I'm gonna drive down the wrong side of the road at 140mph because that's true freedom!

 

[ldmitruk]

I'm gonna drive down the wrong side of the road at 140mph because that's true freedom!

Don't forget your AR-15 with a bump stock and extra capacity magazines.

 

[Deleted member 619]

 

[Sparhafoc]

Don't forget your AR-15 with a bump stock and extra capacity magazines.

Just to protect my rights and liberties, of course.

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

 

[BoganUSAFFLClerk]

So, wait. What part of this are you stuck on? Do you not understand disease transmission? Do you not understand the evolutionary process? Which part of this is 'theoretical' in your mind?

Theoretical as in Corona virus hasn't killed more than tobacco relative to my example. If it hasn't actually happened then it is theoretical not reality.

I don't have any particular qualms with someone smoking, even when it demonstrably harms them. Doing something that facillitates the spread of a contagion that then harms other people is another matter entirely.

It is no different. If people choose not to wear masks or choose not to vaccinate then they choose to accept greater risk. If people choose to remain in an area that doesn't mandate vaccines and the like it is no different than sitting next to someone lighting a cigarette. If you want to mitigate risk then MOVE.

I suppose we'll just ignore that smoking isn't transmitted from one person to another, that nicotine addiction is a thing that happens, that smoking is more easily detected than Covid, and so on?

Smoking is transmitted person to person. One person introduces tobacco to another. It isn't transmission in terms of being viral but a person nonetheless is responsible for someone else smoking. How do you think tobacco is obtained?

I suppose we'll also just ignore the anti-vaxxer movement and the general misinformation spread by the White House as reasons for why people acted the way they did. Not as though people were taking hydroxychloroquine to treat Covid at a certain someone's behest, or anything.

Trump used an 8-gram dose of Regeneron's monoclonal antibody cocktail, called REGN-COV2. Measures are discussed under consideration. You can't really get REGN Cov2 to the general public.

So going back to the beginning, is it safe to say that transmission is what you're not understanding? Because it seems weird to counter an infectious contagion by having potential carriers of said contagion spread out to other populations. Were you aware that that was essentially your solution?

Judging from this response you don't understand my argument. If you agree about minimizing risk you yourself would jump through the hoops for the vaccine and masks correct? Why then pray tell would you then suggest that UNVACCINATED people move? If you live in a place with high number of UNVACCINATED you would presumably MOVE to a place with high VACCINATION numbers and MASK mandates correct? You've got my argument completely backward here.

I'm not really sure where I said that, nor am I sure of why you'd cling so hard to it as an excuse. Do you honestly expect me to believe, after multiple conversations, after your claims that people should just pick up and move to avoid a pandemic and your stance in previous threads that the CDC keeps flitting back and forth on mask regulations, not to mention a demonstrated misunderstanding of what the mask is even meant to do in the first place, that you always make sure to wear a mask in public and maintain social distancing? Somehow, I doubt it.

Notice you replied to a sentence with a question mark at the end of it....

I imagine you possess the capacity to speak clearly and loudly. Masks don't act as ear plugs. If you annunciate, people will understand you.

Imagine if people follow the rules given out by the Biden administration such as double and triple masking. With 1 N95 mask I cannot hear people outside of a gun range. Even a simple painters mask does reduce your volume it is inherently more difficult to hear anybody with something displacing sound waves. Now add the recommended double or triple masking on top of gun fire and hearing protection.

If you're doing this at a range, the mask is the least of your problems. Personally I'd imagine that the sound of gunfire would be a bigger issue, concerning whether or not anyone can hear anyone else.

Gunfire isn't constant while wearing a mask and hearing protection IS.

I agree; practice critical thinking. Maybe then, you could sit 1-2 people down in a room six feet apart, without any kind of hearing protection, while explaining the mechanics of a gun as well as proper handling, before putting on masks, venturing over to a shooting range, having those same people take their masks off once at their station, and practice with their firearms as you walk around wearing your mask, observing general behavior and posture and correcting where needed.

It's a mask. I'm not asking you to suit up like you're some 40K Space Marine. You can don and doff a mask in a matter of seconds.

Gun handling in the context of glasses I teach requires recoil management which requires you taking hold of the firearm and shooting for the student or adjusting their grip physically and not telling them. Obviously if you argue to wear a mask next to others then under those conditions I wear hearing protection, mask, eye protection. Which means hearing and eyesight are effected under those conditions. I have done this for a few months until I quit it because it was dangerous and stupid. Then the company followed suit for the rest of the store in opposition to the governor mandate the sheriff department came out and said the mandate is not a law and they are correct and so the store no longer requires masks for customers or workers for good reason.

 

[BoganUSAFFLClerk]

This interests me.

What do you mean by it? Critical important? Critical necessary? What's critical about it?

Please explain. Nothing interests me more than thinking. It's what I spend all my time thinking about, and this intrigues me. I wait at the feet of the master.

Thinking that is effective. Like a critical hit.

Obviously if the mask and hearing and eye protection makes it so you can't see well enough to shoot or have basic awareness then that is a bad thing in terms of firearms safety. That is especially a bad thing teaching others in such an environment.

You can't really focus on front and rear sights if your glasses are fogged due your breath brought about by the mask or masks that the Biden Administration suggests. It also wastes your class time repeating things because you can't make out what was being said.

A private lesson is 2 hours and some people are driving 45 minutes in order to get firearms training considering the massive uptick in gun sales - peak. Last year being 39m900k transactions last year with current month/year beating the last peak monthly figures for current year by about 1500 transactions.

NICS Firearm Checks: Month/Year | Federal Bureau of Investigation

Statistics represent the number of firearms background checks initiated through the NICS from November 1998 to March 31, 2024.

www.fbi.gov

Obviously if we waste a quarter of class time for over 100 hours an hour dealing with covid related restrictions people aren't going to get training that they paid for and it forces me to be late and inefficient which I don't care for.

I rather slightly increase the likelihood of getting covid over severely increasing the likelihood of a negligent discharge and me getting SHOT over something as stupid as lack of effective communication between student and teacher and lack of perception on the part of the student coupled with all the other factors of teaching someone firearms even without the problems that masks and eye glasses bring about. Distractions are a terrible idea with people without concept of being aware with a firearm in their hand.

 

[BoganUSAFFLClerk]

I'm gonna drive down the wrong side of the road at 140mph because that's true freedom!

That wouldn't get you to where you are going. If anything dealing with oncoming traffic is more restrictive. Your fake analogy is stupid. Or I could simply drive 140 mph on the freeway on the correct side of the freeway given following distance and lack of police presence.

 

[BoganUSAFFLClerk]

Don't forget your AR-15 with a bump stock and extra capacity magazines.

I don't need a bumpstock. I need my thumb.

 

[Deleted member 619]

View attachment 502
Thinking that is effective. Like a critical hit.

Nope, none the wiser. What do yo mean by 'critical'?

I mean, I've seen your thinking, and it definitely isn't effective, so I'm trying to get what you mean.

See, it smacks of a phrase you heard and liked the sound of without understanding it.

Don't fret about it, even critical thinkers have trouble with this, and you're definitely not one. That's why I know it's a good question. I've met hundreds of people who describe themselves as critical thinkers, very few who could actually tell you what it meant.

 

[Greg the Grouper]

Theoretical as in Corona virus hasn't killed more than tobacco relative to my example. If it hasn't actually happened then it is theoretical not reality.

By that logic, I could claim that your assertion that wearing masks on the firing range could lead to disaster is purely theoretical.
I could claim the idea that I might get into a car accident if I get drunk off my ass and hop behind the wheel is purely theoretical.
I could claim that the idea that your brother would die if someone aimed a well-maintained and loaded firearm at his forehead at point blank range and pulled the trigger with the safety off is purely theoretical.

Fortunately, we both live in reality, where such foolish notions are dismissed for the foolishness they obviously are.

There exist observable forces that govern how the world around us works. Allele variance through successive generations resulting from genetic drift is one such observable force. Suggesting that the results of these forces are theoretical is maybe a step short of denying causality entirely.

I'm sorry, I know I'm still writing about this one section, but it's really important that I at least try to impress on you how ridiculous a notion this is.

Even if you wanted to say that my other examples aren't comparable because we've observed other instances of those mechanisms at work, that would still be incorrect, because we've literally observed these mechanisms in viruses already. Influenza evolves to the point of vaccine escape every single year. The Spanish Flu showed pretty clearly how traveling (the very thing you're suggesting when you propose someone picking up their entire lives and setting up shop elsewhere) exacerbates pandemics by introducing carriers to healthy populations. Even with Covid itself, we've already seen newer strains taking a greater hold in populations when compared to the original Covid virus.

Not to mention, you seem to not understand why it hasn't happened. You know, Bogan, it might have something to do with all these protective measures people keep mentioning to you that others have been engaging in: quarantining, wearing masks, maintaining social distancing, getting vaccinated? Or are you of the opinion that these measures do nothing?

It is no different. If people choose not to wear masks or choose not to vaccinate then they choose to accept greater risk. If people choose to remain in an area that doesn't mandate vaccines and the like it is no different than sitting next to someone lighting a cigarette. If you want to mitigate risk then MOVE.

I'm not sure why you're approaching this conversation with the understanding that moving to a different community is as easy as walking away from a group of smokers? I assure you, you're mistaken.

Regardless, we already know from past experience with pandemics that having people moving about between population groups is a really bad way to mitigate the spread of a virus. I'm gonna have to disregard this idea of yours; I prefer my solutions to actually solve problems, rather than exacerbate them.

I'm waiting for you to address the 'breeding ground' argument, by the way. Do you accept that allele frequencies in a given population can change with successive generations, resulting in the emergence of new phenotypes? Do you accept that in the case of a virus these phenotypes could include susceptability to medication/vaccines, vectors of infection, reproduction rates, and lethality? Do you accept that, by a given population refusing to take measures against a pandemic, they are essentially allowing this natural process to occur and gambling with all of our lives?

Smoking is transmitted person to person. One person introduces tobacco to another. It isn't transmission in terms of being viral but a person nonetheless is responsible for someone else smoking. How do you think tobacco is obtained?

I'm convinced that this entire argument exists because you wanted to use the word 'transmission'.
Not that this makes sense, mind you. Offering someone a cigarette isn't the same as them accepting it. Someone accepting a cigarette isn't the same as them using it. Someone trying a cigarette isn't the same as them becoming a habitual smoker. So many points of disconnect, and this is even ignoring that transmitting an infectious disease or virus doesn't even require a carrier's knowledge, let alone their intent.

And just like that, this comparison falls apart. The barriers between 'exposure' and 'infection' are far more numerous with smoking than they are with viruses. You're free to call it transmission nonetheless if you like; it's not like anyone can stop you, though if you expect anyone to be convinced by a rhetorical trick you're sadly mistaken.

Trump used an 8-gram dose of Regeneron's monoclonal antibody cocktail, called REGN-COV2. Measures are discussed under consideration. You can't really get REGN Cov2 to the general public.

Cool.
Maybe I just blanked for a minute? I'm not sure of this point's relevance.

Judging from this response you don't understand my argument. If you agree about minimizing risk you yourself would jump through the hoops for the vaccine and masks correct?

I don't agree that moving is a feasible option for most people to begin with. I think you've successfully ignored that life tends to be complicated, that your average working class has more obligations than they do resources, and that just picking your shit up and moving is a big endeavor and an even bigger risk.

Also that it's literally an exacerbating factor in regards to this problem, not a solution.

Why then pray tell would you then suggest that UNVACCINATED people move? If you live in a place with high number of UNVACCINATED you would presumably MOVE to a place with high VACCINATION numbers and MASK mandates correct? You've got my argument completely backward here.

The presence of vaccinated people is what brings about herd immunity. Their presence in a population improves the overall health of that population.
Not to mention, the unvaccinated are by definition the most vulnerable. Being vaccinated myself, I'm far less likely to catch Covid, and far less likely to suffer serious or long lasting side effects even if I so. Wouldn't the unvaccinated in this scenario move away to protect themselves, being the most vulnerable?

Of course, it was your argument. Who am I, to decide who is moving and who is staying put? Take it away.

Masks at the gun range

I deleted the rest because I thought it all pertained to your point about masks at the gun range and I wanted to try and shorten my post.

Okay. I won't profess to know more about your line of work than you do. Safety is important, and Covid isn't the only thing in the world to worry about.

Is there anything you'd like to add to this?

 

[Sparhafoc]

That wouldn't get you to where you are going.

Because driving down the wrong side of the ride takes you the wrong way.... amirite?

If anything dealing with oncoming traffic is more restrictive.

How is it 'more restrictive'?

Your fake analogy is stupid.

You're just plain awesome at making declarations you have absolutely no capability to support.

Or I could simply drive 140 mph on the freeway on the correct side of the freeway given following distance and lack of police presence.

Ahh but FREEDOM.

 

[Sparhafoc]

Nope, none the wiser. What do yo mean by 'critical'?

He memes memes because received wisdom hasn't told him how to reply.

 

[Sparhafoc]

You can't really focus on front and rear sights if your glasses are fogged due your breath brought about by the mask or masks that the Biden Administration suggests.

As all relevant health authorities around the world suggest, and politicians either accept or reject that scientific consensus apparently depending on whether they think it looks cool to give the middle finger to evidence-based policy.

 

[BoganUSAFFLClerk]

@Greg the Grouper I am tired of dealing with strawman arguments from you as you aren't even addressing the premise and the conditions of the premise reading your responses.

Also I am tired of the children in this forum throwing insults and not actually adding creatively to the conversation this is entirely pointless.

For a forum labeled "League of Reason" it sure doesn't add up tot the name.

 

[Greg the Grouper]

@BoganUSAFFLClerk

Cool. Later.