Dogma's Demise
New Member
Hello VyckRo,
I see you have made another blog post about atheism (well specifically New Atheists on the Internet and how horrible they are) so here's my response. Now you did raise some points about vulgarity and how it hinders real discussion, fine, I won't do it this time. (Or try not to anyway.)
This applies both ways, VyckRo. Consider the kind of "first impression" you are making on an atheist who comes to your channel, for example when they see videos like "Atheism = Lack of Culture" or comments like "Communism is the political expression of atheism", or even that "So far your only political expression has been communism" (paraphrasing here so feel free to correct it), that is false historically as well as I've shown you the case with Ataturk, an atheist who founded a modern non-communist democratic state. Now what do you suppose Turkey would be like today if Ataturk had been, let's say a devout Muslim instead?
Secondly, you have been shown multiple times that political ideology and religious belief (or unbelief) don't really have much in common. What is inherently communistic or even left-wing about atheism? And when examples are shown to you (HowTheWorldWorks, SE Cupp who are right-wing or Pat Condell, MartinJWillett which at the very least have strong right-wing tendencies) your response is always "these people are just deluded", which the implication that if you're atheist, communism is the only way to go.
As I said, it works both ways.
Thirdly, about this whole apparent left-wing/atheist alliance, at least in America, have you ever considered that maybe the reason many atheists stay away from the right is because the GOP has such horrible socially conservative policies and tends to be allied with religious loonies?
And about the anger, I suspect the anger is mostly the result of years of anti-atheist marginalization going on in society, including the first world country USA as well as the madness displayed by many highly devout theists whether it's evangelist creationists in America who want to hijack the science class or Muslims who believe in the implementation of Sharia and the destruction of "western civilization from within" or I dunno, Orthodox Christian far right-wingers from Noua Dreapta or PNC who want to turn Romania into a theocracy or Catholic officials who discourage the use of condoms when there's an over-population and HIV crisis in Africa.
All over the world atheists are marginalized, even for the most trivial remarks about religion, it happens in Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Malaysia, even secular Turkey. Now luckily in USA there is a first amendment, but discrimination still happens socially.
You said:
How many atheists do you actually know? I mean all you've seen so far is a minority of a minority. There are millions of atheists in Sweden alone for example who have no interest in any kind of pro-atheism activism.
Second, there's a difference between mocking people and mocking ideas, but because some people are so attached to these ideas, they take it as a personal attack.
This is a forum with plenty of "new atheists", so I'm going to ask everyone right now: Do you agree with the statement that "religion is the cause for all that is evil, and for nothing that is good"? I'll go even further, how many of you agree that "religion is the cause for half that is evil, and for almost nothing that is good"?
I mean maybe you've misunderstood some of the things you've read, but I seriously doubt that many atheists are deluded enough to think that once religion is gone the world will be this great scientifically advanced utopia.
Now speaking of the good done by religion, last time we talked you mentioned how the Christian world preserved the knowledge of the Greeks and helped develop western civilization. That's all well and good, but my point is I'm not worried that somehow the past will be magically erased if everyone became atheist. For example schools and hospitals might have been closely tied with the church in the beginning, well now they're secular and certainly don't need any church to function.
Secondly, that's one religion and these days Christianity is becoming an increasing liability, often exploited for control and financial gain or to oppress homosexuals. If you asked me about Islam, I can honestly say that the world would probably be a better place right now if Islam never existed, imagine no more Ottoman conquests, no more totalitarian regimes based on Sharia, no more Middle Eastern conflict and global terrorism, no more problems of Sharia creeping into Europe.
I criticize a lot of things actually, it's just that this is the only side of me I'm showing right now. Now I wouldn't exactly describe myself as "activist" because I do very little compared to other people who are indeed activists. But that's what activists do. They tend to focus on a single issue.
I also don't think it's comparable to racism, at least it's not a perfect comparison. Beliefs (religious or otherwise) actually define who you are, as opposed to race which is not only a superficial cosmetic aspect of someone, but also unchangeable, so that's another reason racism is unacceptable. Same with antisemitism, it often doesn't have anything to do with criticism of Judaism, it's just pure hate against Jews based on their origin. So if I cannot judge what kind of person you are based on what you believe, then I can't really judge you at all. I certainly believe citizens are and should be equal under the law regardless of what they believe and that everyone can worship whatever they want as long as they don't impose it on others but don't expect me to take seriously all the wild claims made by religions.
Anyway, there are plenty of other strawman that follow, for example not all new atheists (yes that includes YouTube atheists) believe the whole Dark Age thing brought about by Christianity, see CardinalVirtues, skepticalheretic. Maybe I will respond later, but this little thing caught my eye:
I assume you're talking about the western model since most new atheists are westerners.
Not sure if you noticed but European and American cultures are not purely Christian or "Judeo-Christian" or whatever term you prefer. It's also a secular humanist culture. I don't know many "new atheists" who want to destroy western culture, give us some examples.
There is however a tendency for cultural relativism (or as I like to call it multiculty dhimmitude) so maybe westerns todays aren't so keen to defend their culture from the demands of Islamic culture. But that goes for Christian westerners like this guy:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7232661.stm
And you really think it's atheists "attacking" the cultural model when you have a high-ranking Christian defending Sharia law?
I see you have made another blog post about atheism (well specifically New Atheists on the Internet and how horrible they are) so here's my response. Now you did raise some points about vulgarity and how it hinders real discussion, fine, I won't do it this time. (Or try not to anyway.)
VyckRo said:
This applies both ways, VyckRo. Consider the kind of "first impression" you are making on an atheist who comes to your channel, for example when they see videos like "Atheism = Lack of Culture" or comments like "Communism is the political expression of atheism", or even that "So far your only political expression has been communism" (paraphrasing here so feel free to correct it), that is false historically as well as I've shown you the case with Ataturk, an atheist who founded a modern non-communist democratic state. Now what do you suppose Turkey would be like today if Ataturk had been, let's say a devout Muslim instead?
Secondly, you have been shown multiple times that political ideology and religious belief (or unbelief) don't really have much in common. What is inherently communistic or even left-wing about atheism? And when examples are shown to you (HowTheWorldWorks, SE Cupp who are right-wing or Pat Condell, MartinJWillett which at the very least have strong right-wing tendencies) your response is always "these people are just deluded", which the implication that if you're atheist, communism is the only way to go.
As I said, it works both ways.
Thirdly, about this whole apparent left-wing/atheist alliance, at least in America, have you ever considered that maybe the reason many atheists stay away from the right is because the GOP has such horrible socially conservative policies and tends to be allied with religious loonies?
And about the anger, I suspect the anger is mostly the result of years of anti-atheist marginalization going on in society, including the first world country USA as well as the madness displayed by many highly devout theists whether it's evangelist creationists in America who want to hijack the science class or Muslims who believe in the implementation of Sharia and the destruction of "western civilization from within" or I dunno, Orthodox Christian far right-wingers from Noua Dreapta or PNC who want to turn Romania into a theocracy or Catholic officials who discourage the use of condoms when there's an over-population and HIV crisis in Africa.
All over the world atheists are marginalized, even for the most trivial remarks about religion, it happens in Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Malaysia, even secular Turkey. Now luckily in USA there is a first amendment, but discrimination still happens socially.
You said:
VyckRo said:
How many atheists do you actually know? I mean all you've seen so far is a minority of a minority. There are millions of atheists in Sweden alone for example who have no interest in any kind of pro-atheism activism.
Second, there's a difference between mocking people and mocking ideas, but because some people are so attached to these ideas, they take it as a personal attack.
VyckRo said:
This is a forum with plenty of "new atheists", so I'm going to ask everyone right now: Do you agree with the statement that "religion is the cause for all that is evil, and for nothing that is good"? I'll go even further, how many of you agree that "religion is the cause for half that is evil, and for almost nothing that is good"?
I mean maybe you've misunderstood some of the things you've read, but I seriously doubt that many atheists are deluded enough to think that once religion is gone the world will be this great scientifically advanced utopia.
Now speaking of the good done by religion, last time we talked you mentioned how the Christian world preserved the knowledge of the Greeks and helped develop western civilization. That's all well and good, but my point is I'm not worried that somehow the past will be magically erased if everyone became atheist. For example schools and hospitals might have been closely tied with the church in the beginning, well now they're secular and certainly don't need any church to function.
Secondly, that's one religion and these days Christianity is becoming an increasing liability, often exploited for control and financial gain or to oppress homosexuals. If you asked me about Islam, I can honestly say that the world would probably be a better place right now if Islam never existed, imagine no more Ottoman conquests, no more totalitarian regimes based on Sharia, no more Middle Eastern conflict and global terrorism, no more problems of Sharia creeping into Europe.
VyckRo said:
I criticize a lot of things actually, it's just that this is the only side of me I'm showing right now. Now I wouldn't exactly describe myself as "activist" because I do very little compared to other people who are indeed activists. But that's what activists do. They tend to focus on a single issue.
I also don't think it's comparable to racism, at least it's not a perfect comparison. Beliefs (religious or otherwise) actually define who you are, as opposed to race which is not only a superficial cosmetic aspect of someone, but also unchangeable, so that's another reason racism is unacceptable. Same with antisemitism, it often doesn't have anything to do with criticism of Judaism, it's just pure hate against Jews based on their origin. So if I cannot judge what kind of person you are based on what you believe, then I can't really judge you at all. I certainly believe citizens are and should be equal under the law regardless of what they believe and that everyone can worship whatever they want as long as they don't impose it on others but don't expect me to take seriously all the wild claims made by religions.
Anyway, there are plenty of other strawman that follow, for example not all new atheists (yes that includes YouTube atheists) believe the whole Dark Age thing brought about by Christianity, see CardinalVirtues, skepticalheretic. Maybe I will respond later, but this little thing caught my eye:
VyckRo said:
I assume you're talking about the western model since most new atheists are westerners.
Not sure if you noticed but European and American cultures are not purely Christian or "Judeo-Christian" or whatever term you prefer. It's also a secular humanist culture. I don't know many "new atheists" who want to destroy western culture, give us some examples.
There is however a tendency for cultural relativism (or as I like to call it multiculty dhimmitude) so maybe westerns todays aren't so keen to defend their culture from the demands of Islamic culture. But that goes for Christian westerners like this guy:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7232661.stm
And you really think it's atheists "attacking" the cultural model when you have a high-ranking Christian defending Sharia law?
No, not really, it's emotional blackmail. We don't owe Islam anything because of something that happened 800 years ago, especially when it's an almost complete liability in the present.
