Omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence.

[P3t4rd]

In RE at my school we learn that christians beleive that god is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. It's true that almost all christians I have met hold this position, I'm just wondering where it came from.
I haven't read the whole bible so I'm not sure if it sais god is these things somewhere in it, but I've read the first part of the king james version of genesis.

Genesis 3:
7: And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
8: And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9: And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10: And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11: And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12: And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

If he was omniscient he would not have called for adam asking where he is.
If he was omnipresent he wouldn't be walking through the garden of eden.

Does anyone know when and why people started beleiving god was omniscient and omnipresent?

 

[IrBubble]

Omnipotence requires omniscience. Omnipresence would probably be the holy ghost. The trinity is confusin stuffz <.<

 

[P3t4rd]

Hehehe true, but it's something I would like to challenge, but there is nothing it's based on too challange.
If omnipotence requires omniscience, and god had to call for adam to find out where he was, then god is not omnipotent, so why do people think he is. Unless it's just another contradiction in the bible.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Hehehe true, but it's something I would like to challenge, but there is nothing it's based on too challange.
If omnipotence requires omniscience, and god had to call for adam to find out where he was, then god is not omnipotent, so why do people think he is. Unless it's just another contradiction in the bible.

That's an obvious place to trip up and dismiss a theist if you just want to shut them up. If they claim that their imaginary friend has those qualities, and the Bible contradicts them, you can pretty much slam them with it and then dismiss them in the rudest way possible.

 

[P3t4rd]

Yeh I suppose, Thanks

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Yeh I suppose, Thanks

Remember, that won't change any minds or win you any friends...

 

[IrBubble]

Pfft, who needs friends when you have sweet, cuddly facts.

 

[P3t4rd]

Pfft, who needs friends when you have sweet, cuddly facts.

HAHA, You don't mind if I quote you on that do you?

 

[WolfAU]

Those traits are essentially impossible (as humans talk about perfection being impossible), self conflicting, poorly defined in the bible, and not really supported by the facts, especially given the creation we see around us as being impressive, but clearly flawed.

"I haven't read the whole bible so I'm not sure if it sa[y]s god is these things somewhere in it"
In some ways it doesn't matter where these beliefs originate. The 'alpha' idea is essentially a core element of religion. There are two factors that likely play into why Jews foolishly designed an impossible God, one I refer to as the 'infinity plus one' argument, where they were trying to say their God was better than all the other Gods around at the time (also keep in mind ancient Jews were monolateralists, meaning they believed in many Gods, but worshipped only one).

The other is related to psychology, which for those who've seen the thunderf00t v Ray Comfort discussion (link here if you havent) might remember thunderf00t touching onto the subject, describing it as an appeal to an 'alpha figure', similar people I know have made a similar point, describing it as relating to desiring 'father archetypes' and related issues (ie desiring the inspiration, guidance, comfort and sense of protection that a strong father figure can provide, ie ask a young kid and they'll basically allude to their belief their father is perfect), as such theists cannot really entertain the belief that their creator is in any way, shape or form, not perfect, not fully benevolent etc.

"If he was omniscient he would not have called for adam asking where he is.
If he was omnipresent he wouldn't be walking through the garden of eden."
Theists will point out that... the bible is full of metaphor (though they vary on what is metaphoric and to what degree) so many would say this is not a literal record of what happened, but the jist of it, also God could arguably manifest a physical form for the purposes of human interaction (that is until Catholics basically tried to make out God's presence was so holy seeing him would blind us, hearing him would deafen us, and touching him would kill us).

Also God aparently wrestled with a dude and lost (linkies here and here)

Some may argue that he was 'playing dumb', however this seems to conflict with Titus 1:2 that says...

...In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Also some believe that God can intentionally limit his power for various reasons (ie he is not omniscient in regards to what I'm thinking right now, out of respect for my privacy... if this is the case then his ability to know the future seems to be contradictory as well).

 

[pigu0606]

sorry, wrong thread... i read Impotence.

i'll seek help elsewhere.

 

[GoodKat]

I've noticed that the longer the narrative of the Bible goes on, the more powerful God gets, and the less active and visible He becomes.

 

[ApostateProphet]

The religious concept of god has evolved over time (there's that word again) to keep pace with our knowledge of the universe. The larger and more impressive the universe the more potent a god MUST be to maintain the pretense that it is the creator of such grand structure. It's the theistic equivalent of one-upsmanship.

 

[P3t4rd]

The religious concept of god has evolved over time (there's that word again) to keep pace with our knowledge of the universe. The larger and more impressive the universe the more potent a god MUST be to maintain the pretense that it is the creator of such grand structure. It's the theistic equivalent of one-upsmanship.

I guess that's something I like about creationists, they are the only people who actually have full faith in christianity (of course that seems to make them twats a lot of the time like VFX)

 

[e2iPi]

The religious concept of god has evolved over time (there's that word again) to keep pace with our knowledge of the universe. The larger and more impressive the universe the more potent a god MUST be to maintain the pretense that it is the creator of such grand structure. It's the theistic equivalent of one-upsmanship.

They also have to be come less and less visible.

It really is an interesting contrast, as a god's power increases, our ability to detect it decreases.
p = power of a god
d = detectability of a god
k = our knowledge of the universe

d = 1/pk

i^2

 

[GoodKat]

I guess that's something I like about creationists, they are the only people who actually have full faith in christianity

They may have more faith, but it still isn't full, most of them take medicine and believe that the earth moves around the sun.

 

[e2iPi]

They may have more faith, but it still isn't full, most of them take medicine and believe that the earth moves around the sun.

None of them follow the "old law" either. Jesus himself said that the law was still in full force. I guess that would be too inconvenient.

Christians (and perhaps all religious people, but I can't speak from experience there) simply ignore the parts of the bible that are inconvenient or uncomfortable.
Of course they do the exact same thing with the world around them. They will gladly take medicine for whatever ails them (or at least most will), and drive around in cars and read their bible under electric lights, but evolution? they'll just ignore that evolution is the result of the same scientific investigation of the world that lead to all those things we like, and claim that it doesn't exist.


i^2

 

[Dusty341]

Omni-ignorance more like...

 

[rulezdaworld0]

In RE at my school we learn that christians beleive that god is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. It's true that almost all christians I have met hold this position, I'm just wondering where it came from.
I haven't read the whole bible so I'm not sure if it sais god is these things somewhere in it, but I've read the first part of the king james version of genesis.

Genesis 3:
7: And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
8: And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9: And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10: And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11: And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12: And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
If he was omniscient he would not have called for adam asking where he is.

He was playing hide & seek Even god needs a bit of fun every now and again lol

 

[theatheistguy]

They also have to be come less and less visible.

It really is an interesting contrast, as a god's power increases, our ability to detect it decreases.
p = power of a god
d = detectability of a god
k = our knowledge of the universe

d = 1/pk

i^2

Surely this would be:

d = k/p

as when our knowledge of the universe increases, so should our ability to detect a god.

However, my objection is rendered moot when you consider that god's power is infinite therefore making him undetectable.

 

[e2iPi]

as when our knowledge of the universe increases, so should our ability to detect a god.

However, my objection is rendered moot when you consider that god's power is infinite therefore making him undetectable.

Or he just finds a deeper hole to hide in.