Of Mosques and Nazis

[borrofburi]

Hitler didn't target most religions specifically (except Jews and Jehovas Witnesses), but Christians were also interned. That said, I am no expert on religious persecution in WWII, but I have enough background to realise that Christianity earned no one a free pass, so it makes little sense to pin the blame on religion. Religion and racism make convenient political leashes, and Hitler used both to excess (despite the fact that he failed to make the "perfect" prototype himself.) WWII was hardly a religious crusade.

But by the same token I doubt muslim terrorists give a free pass to other muslims.

 

[Don-Sama]

@ reddwards,

I know quite alot of polish people, I have not spoken alot about religion with them but I know most of them are quite religious, I also know that they weren't orthodox, but roman.

So I googled it,

Most Poles, by far, adhere to the Christian faith, with 89.8% belonging to the Roman Catholic Church.[1] Catholicism plays an important role in the lives of many Poles and the Roman Catholic Church in Poland enjoys immense social prestige and political influence. [2] The church is widely respected by both its members and non-members, who see it as a symbol of Polish heritage and culture.[3] The rest of the population consists mainly of Eastern Orthodox (about 506 000), Jehovah's Witnesses (about 220 000) and various Protestant (about 159 000, with about 76 000 in the largest Evangelical-Augsburg Church in Poland) religious minorities.[4]

most are roman Catholics.

My history teacher on high school once said that the polish were shouting, cheering and waving next to the railway lines to the jews that got taken away, and that they dam well knew what was going to happen with them.
He also told a story about a village in poland, When the nazi's took control of poland the Catholic villagers simply went out and slaughtered their jewish neighbours and friends, and thus rid the town of all jews..


This also reminds me on some documentary I had seen on discovery a few months ago, which was about (don't know what it was called) but it was about the genocides the nazi's, or rather the SS groups, commited in the eastern part of europe before the camps got opened. It also had footage consisting of lots of photo's and some camera footage.
The SS'ers simply went from village to village wiping out the jews by shooting them, but the most striking thing was that the whole village, even children, were watching how they got shot, now the most striking thing about that was that the footage also showed polish volunteers that were helping the nazi's. All these people were looking at their neighbours getting shot.

Also form what I was taught and have heard, (i'm no expert) the way Hitler treated the captured country's was mostly by race and the attitude of the country towards the nazi domination. Everyone regardless their race can be a roman Catholic. Hitler disliked everyone different from the ubermench (blond, blue eyes) especially in Europe were the ubermench aught to dominate above all others. (correct me if im wrong)

Ah well, no point being made here though.

 

[theyounghistorian77]

most are roman Catholics.

Indeed, You should try studying Polish History as it's very fascinating


-

He also told a story about a village in poland, When the nazi's took control of poland the Catholic villagers simply went out and slaughtered their jewish neighbours and friends, and thus rid the town of all jews..

I can guess he was talking about the jedwabne massacre. Right?

Also form what I was taught and have heard, (i'm no expert) the way Hitler treated the captured country's was mostly by race and the attitude of the country towards the nazi domination. Everyone regardless their race can be a roman Catholic. Hitler disliked everyone different from the ubermench (blond, blue eyes) especially in Europe were the ubermench aught to dominate above all others. (correct me if im wrong)

The Generalplan-Ost laid down that persons belonging to those ethnic groups who lived in geographical areas that were identified for grman settlement (these included Ingermanland [the area around Leningrad], parts of Belorussia, parts of West Ukraine, Crimea, and the Dnepr bend) would be germanised if suitable, or else expelled from those areas. Approximately one-eighth of ethnic Poles were considered suitable for germanisation. The remainder were to be expelled, most likely to Siberia (although Wetzel of the Ostministerium suggested migration to Brazil). It should be noted that the criteria by which suitability for germanisation was to be judged were not solly anthropological, ie physical features, but also cultural, social and economic, eg for a Polish family to be considered suitable for germanisation, it had to exhibit a superior level of initiative, cleanliness, economic efficiency and various other qualities.

Since the Baltic States were scheduled for German settlement, the Lithuanians, Latvians and Estonians were also to be selected for germanisation. The German demographic experts estimated that about half of the Baltic peoples would be suitable for germanisation; those considered unsuitable would be resettled in European Russia where they would form a class of middle-level administrators assisting the German overlords, ie a role they had taken during the Tsarist period.

With regard to the South Slavic peoples, there were no plans for these, except for the Slovenes, who were to be germanised or deported to Serbia, since Slovenia was scheduled for German settlement. There were no plans for Croats, Serbs, Slovaks, Bulgars et, since the areas they inhabited wre not designated as areas of German settlement (indeed, the ethnic Germans who already lived there were to be repatriated to the German settlement areas. The future of those countries was to be as German satellites, providing raw materials to German industry.

as for the Great Russians, Belorussians and Ukrainians, they were merely to be decimated, displaced or turned into helots.

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The Blue-eyed Blond thing is a slight myth, and probably comes from Hollywood. :roll: The Nazis had first and foremost a Loyalty to the "Aryan race" which, although which encompassed many who held those genetic characteristics (but are you forgetting some of the brown haired, brown eyed leaders? Hitler btw, did have blue eyes.)

The Slavic peoples had just as many, if not more Blue eyed Blondes as the Germans themselves. And as for Hitler's plans for them? see above.

yellow represents 80%+ light hair
light orange is 50-79% light hair
light brown is 20-49% light hair
dark brown is 1-19% light hair
black represents no presence of light hair

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another point, Are You talking about ubermensch and uberman in nietzschian terms?

"Hitler probably never read a word of Nietzsche" - Weaver Santaniello, Nietzsche, God, and the Jews p41.

"Arguably,, Hitler himself never read a word of Nietzsche; certainly, if he did read him, it was not extensively" - Berel Lang, Post-Holocaust: Interpretation, Misinterpretation, and the Claims of History p162

"To be sure, it is almost certain that Hitler either never read Nietzsche directly or read very little." - Jacob Golomb, Nietzsche and Jewish Culture, Routledge, 1997, p9

"By all indications, Hitler never read Nietzsche., Neither Mein Kampf nor Hitler's Table Talk mentions his name. Nietzschean ideas reached him through the filter of Alfred Rosenberg's Myth of the Twentieth Century, and, more simply, through what was coffeehouse Quatsch in Vienna and Munich. This, at least is the impression he gives in his published conversations with Dietrich Eckart." - Andrew C. Janos, East Central Europe in the Modern World, Stanford University Press, 2002, p184.

if Hitler got any ideas of Nietzsche, It would have been very indirect at the very most.

Just wish to clear this up

 

[rredwards]

So let me get this str8 - you are arguing that the twin towers and the Pentagon are Christian religious icons? No wait - you are saying all of the Sunni vs Shiite wars were not Muslim religious wars? Wait no you are saying that Hitler did not believe the religious stuff he spouted but Bin Laden does?

Sorry - I am just going to have to call whatever that first point you were trying to make balderdash. As for the second - uh - right? Yes, you are correct, everyone so far agrees - why not? Thanks for playing!

Thanks for such a concise and informative reply.

What are you saying, exactly?

Sorry, I thought my point was clear. Your arguments were irrelevant to the conversation. Not only could they apply equally well to Bin Laden and Hitler, the Nazis and Al-Qaeda, but that is not even the point. Actually, the point is just that, arguments similar to your apply equally to both parties. For example, Hitler motived his troops to action by invoking an oath to god to follow his command and the targets of Bin Ladin's "holey war" are always secular!

 

[Andiferous]

I really want to know if I've misread you. However, I suspect I'm not the only one who is guilty of misreading.

For example, Hitler motived his troops to action by invoking an oath to god to follow his command and the targets of Bin Ladin's "holey war" are always secular!

Sure. But what makes you say bible oaths are unusual? They still make oaths to god in judicial systems. How many National Anthems have dropped god even now? I know mine has not. It''d be interesting to draw up stats on how many national militaries made no connection to god. That single point can't really provide sufficient evidence of religious motivation. If the argument hinges on that,, you might as well connect girl guides and boy scouts to Bin Laden.

If I've misinterpreted, please explain. I'm finding it difficult to find your point.

 

[theyounghistorian77]

I really want to know if I've misread you. However, I suspect I'm not the only one who is guilty of misreading.

For example, Hitler motived his troops to action by invoking an oath to god to follow his command and the targets of Bin Ladin's "holey war" are always secular!

Sure. But what makes you say bible oaths are unusual? They still make oaths to god in judicial systems. How many National Anthems have dropped god even now? I know mine has not. It''d be interesting to draw up stats on how many national militaries made no connection to god. That single point can't really provide sufficient evidence of religious motivation. If the argument hinges on that,, you might as well connect girl guides and boy scouts to Bin Laden.

If I've misinterpreted, please explain. I'm finding it difficult to find your point.

"I swear by almighty God this sacred oath: I will at all times loyally and honestly serve my people and country and, as a brave soldier, I will be ready at any time to stake my life for this oath."

"I swear by almighty God this sacred oath: I will render unconditional obedience to the Fuhrer of the German Reich and people, Adolf Hitler, Supreme Commander of the Wehrmacht, and, as a brave soldier, I will be ready at any time to stake my life for this oath."

The Whole point of the Fuhrer Oath was to transfer the Loyalty that the soldiers had to the Old Weimar republic to Hitler, thus Consolidating his power over the military. It was part of the process of "Gleichschaltung" That's why The part involving God didn't change.

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"Bible oaths" (if you wish to call them that) are nothing special as andiferous points out. Also, the targets of Al-qaeda at least aren't always "secular" as this article from Reuters demonstrates.

 

[Don-Sama]

http://www.anp-photo.com/servemailing.pp?id=20329

(pictures of demonstration @ ground zero)
Second picture On the right.
hmmm..

 

[Andiferous]

"I swear by almighty God this sacred oath: I will at all times loyally and honestly serve my people and country and, as a brave soldier, I will be ready at any time to stake my life for this oath."

"I swear by almighty God this sacred oath: I will render unconditional obedience to the Fuhrer of the German Reich and people, Adolf Hitler, Supreme Commander of the Wehrmacht, and, as a brave soldier, I will be ready at any time to stake my life for this oath."

The Whole point of the Fuhrer Oath was to transfer the Loyalty that the soldiers had to the Old Weimar republic to Hitler, thus Consolidating his power over the military. It was part of the process of "Gleichschaltung" That's why The part involving God didn't change.

Show More Hide

{TEXT}

"Bible oaths" (if you wish to call them that) are nothing special as andiferous points out. Also, the targets of Al-qaeda at least aren't always "secular" as this article from Reuters demonstrates.

Thanks YH. You've brought up a lot of interesting information to which I have been ignorant.

 

[theyounghistorian77]

http://www.anp-photo.com/servemailing.pp?id=20329

(pictures of demonstration @ ground zero)
Second picture On the right.
hmmm..

:roll: it's an appeal to emotion rather than reason. I wonder what she thinks of the Centre of Dialogue and Prayer in Oświęcim Which has included German Speakers in the past?

Centre for Information, Meetings, Dialogue, Education and Prayer was founded in 1992. It is a Catholic institution, founded by the Archbishop Franciszek Cardinal Macharski in co-operation with the bishops of Europe, as well as with the representatives of Jewish organisations. The aim of the Centre, which in 1998 took the name of the Centre of Dialogue and Prayer in Auschwitz and was built in the neighbourhood of the Auschwitz concentration camp, is to create a place for reflection, education, sharing and prayer for all those who are moved by what happened here.

The Centre commemorates the victims and contributes to creating mutual respect, reconciliation, and peace in the world.

 

[theyounghistorian77]

an addition to my point against the Belt buckle argument is that the nazis only borrowed it. This is an image of WW I Prussian enlisted man's belt buckle front. (note the similarities)