Nihilism

[jackamoo]

For those not familiar with Nihilism I'll give a (very) brief overview but I encourage you to have read around the subject before posting-

Nihilism is the belief that nothing has any ultimate purpose, meaning or any otherwise intrinsic value.
Nihilists assert that all accepted values and conventions by which we live our lives are baseless and invented and that there is no (and could not be) such thing as morality, no good, no evil, no right or wrong because ultimately no decision is preferable to any other.
It is a generally atheistic viewpoint, although Nihilists also assert that even if there was a higher power, man has no moral obligation to worship it, which I think is pretty ace.

A good point of discussion on the subject of Nihilism is will its corrosive effects eventually destroy all moral, religious, and metaphysical convictions and precipitate the greatest crisis in human history?
Have these changes already started to take effect?

 

[Möbiµs]

I don't think radical nihilism is a philosophy that should completely guide one's life. If it did, why would you even bother getting off the couch? Although it can be very healthy to go through a form of nihilism or relativism early on in life to become more open minded as a person. I think that people who haven't at least contemplated on nihilism can be impossible to talk to because of their bigotry.

 

[Dr.PEARList]

yeah nihilism is a serious problem especially among non-believers. when some people realizes there is no god they often bend down to nihilism and think there is no reason to life and so one. i was one of those people a time ago. but now i just say that you make your own purpose and that's the beauty of living.

 

[jackamoo]

yeah nihilism is a serious problem especially among non-believers. when some people realizes there is no god they often bend down to nihilism and think there is no reason to life and so one. i was one of those people a time ago. but now i just say that you make your own purpose and that's the beauty of living.

I like that idea, that the beauty of life is intrinsic in its finite construct, and that you each create your own purpose and therein lies the beauty.
I think your first point touches upon Nietzsche's idea of Nihilism being a threat, that when we become a more rational and civilised society belief in god will diminish and we'll be left with nothing, also known as nihil.

 

[Shapeshifter]

I'm sorry for not getting into the subject very deep, but just as a comment, I don't think it makes much sense claiming that just because there are no such things as "objective morality", our lives would be "baseless". Just because laws and culture aren't as infinite as the laws of nature, doesn't mean they don't matter. Being so blatantly blunt doesn't make any sense really, even if it seems hip or cool.

And this one doesn't make any practical sense either: "ultimately no decision is preferable to any other.".
Right... >.>

But on the other hand, with this I can fully agree: "that you each create your own purpose and therein lies the beauty.". True. We're indeed irrelevant in the bigger picture, "ultimately" you might call it, but in real life that doesn't really matter now, does it? It makes no sense degrading culture to nothingness.


You're not infinite either, so why would your values need to be?

 

[ImprobableJoe]

A good point of discussion on the subject of Nihilism is will its corrosive effects eventually destroy all moral, religious, and metaphysical convictions and precipitate the greatest crisis in human history?
Have these changes already started to take effect?

No one takes Nihilists seriously, so I doubt they will cause any "great crisis"... or even a "middling-to-small crisis" for that matter. Immature douche-nozzles make a bunch of noise, then they grow up and become accountants and tax attorneys. :lol:

 

[jackamoo]

No one takes Nihilists seriously, so I doubt they will cause any "great crisis"... or even a "middling-to-small crisis" for that matter. Immature douche-nozzles make a bunch of noise, then they grow up and become accountants and tax attorneys. :lol:

Haha, ace.
Or... they may go in to their Highschool wearing trench coats and shoot the place up with tec9s, like a bunch of misanthropic nihilistic pin-ups.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Haha, ace.
Or... they may go in to their Highschool wearing trench coats and shoot the place up with tec9s, like a bunch of misanthropic nihilistic pin-ups.

They might... but generally they don't, and they grow out of it after awhile. In either case, they don't create any sort of societal crisis.

 

[lightbulbsun88]

Nihilism: From Latin for "nothing"; belief that the universe lacks meaning and purpose.

Yup, I agree with that.

...Consequently, moral, social, and political values are creative interpretations; they reflect their subjective origins. Without God, there can be no objective base for values.

I don't agree with this. My rights end where yours begin is about as objective as you can be.

Source: "Archetypes of Wisdom An Introduction to Philosophy Sixth Edition" Page 479 Douglas J. Soccio

 

[Th1sWasATriumph]

Or... they may go in to their Highschool wearing trench coats and shoot the place up with tec9s, like a bunch of misanthropic nihilistic pin-ups.

I don't know what the ratio of one to the other would be exactly, but I'm willing to bet that the nihilists who go and shoot up schools form the smaller part of a very small thing.

I'd label myself a nihilist, but I sure do enjoy orgasms and guitar playing (more or less in that order.) I create my own purpose. If you genuinely think there is some higher purpose then you pretty much DON'T have a purpose, as you're merely drifting with the currents of destiny and have no say in the matter.

I don't think objective morals exist, but I can see the value of them as a construct for continued etc. That's my stance. As for social decay? People have been predicting that for ages, I don't think we're doomed yet. The big things are ignored in such debates, and the little things amplified. Forget the advance of racial and sexual equality; focus on binge drinking. Forget the retreat of religion; focus on a few fucknuts who bomb things in the name of God.

If that was a very glib overview, I don't care. Things ARE better now than they were, in general.

 

[Th1sWasATriumph]

I think your first point touches upon Nietzsche's idea of Nihilism being a threat, that when we become a more rational and civilised society belief in god will diminish and we'll be left with nothing, also known as nihil.

I think that's only a bad thing if you think God is a good thing for society to depend upon. Why would we be left with nothing upon God's departure? I don't believe in God NOW, and I have plenty to live for. I can't wait for everyone to abandon their faith.

 

[Jotto999]

You could call me a nihilist. But I don't want to be associated with depressed people who don't want to live. I love living. Living is fantastic, and my sympathies to anyone who feels otherwise!

So yes, I do think meaning and value are nothing more than invented in our minds, but I do not think that it is the wrong thing to do. Even if in the big picture nothing matters, in my brain there are many things I enjoy, love, and hold very high in value. And a life rich with meaning and value is much more enjoyable and fulfills me, so no matter how pointless my temporarily arranged atoms are, I get the chance to be alive. I'm going to damn well enjoy it, regardless of whether or not it means anything in the long run.

In fact, I think what is incorrect is when people contemplate nihilism, then get depressed and lose their will to live. How absurd! Just because outside of our minds there is no such thing as value doesn't mean inside our minds there can't be.

I agree that values and meanings are only created in our minds, but I do not believe incorrectly so.

 

[Unidentified]

I believe in some nihilistic philosophies, but I'm not a nihilist. Morality is both objective and subjective - morals come from rationality, there is a rational part of our brains and the brain is objective. However, there is also a language part of our brains, too, and we don't all speak the same language, or with the same accent etc.

I'm too tired to go in depth.

 

[Xaska]

So that's what Nihilism is, huh? I guess you could label me as a nihilist. :lol:

I believe that nothing is objective, that everything we see before us, all of our creations (esp. culture); are subjective.

Which leaves me with the question, How did we form all of our predispositions in the first place? :?

I guess ever since I was twelve, I've been trying to rid myself of every biased aspect I possibly can (and I fail horribly at that )

 

[lightbulbsun88]

I believe that nothing is objective, that everything we see before us, all of our creations (esp. culture); are subjective.

Is gravity subjective?

 

[Xaska]

I mean things made by man. Ratiocination which is the product of society. I don't believe that it's right or wrong, I just think things could be different.

 

[psychonaut]

I accept nihilism's claim that there is no ultimate or absolute purpose. But I reject its claim that any created meaning/purpose/morality lacks validity.

It strikes me that nihilism is the bridge between moral absolutism and moral relativism. In that, nihilists still appear to hold the worth of any subjective meaning to the standard of being absolute. Since nihilism dismisses absolute meaning, nothing can then measure up to that implied standard.

Which begs the question: why assume that absolute meaning is the only meaning that can have worth? It seems a contradiction that a philosophy that rejects subjective meaning also embraces it at its core.

It is not necessarily obvious on the surface that nihilism embraces subjective meaning, but consider an example: A nihilist ponders her own life, considering whether it has value. She concludes that her life has no ultimate purpose or meaning, and therefore has no value. She dismisses any subjective value she might have applied to her life on those grounds. Here she is making a value judgement, based on the property of being absolute. The value judgement is not explicit but implied.

To me it makes more sense to assume a position with as few a-priori values as possible. I would say that the property of being absolute has no intrinsic value. Which leaves me free to embrace subjective meaning, even while acknowledging that it has no higher or ultimate meaning.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I accept nihilism's claim that there is no ultimate or absolute purpose. But I reject its claim that any created meaning/purpose/morality lacks validity.

It strikes me that nihilism is the bridge between moral absolutism and moral relativism. In that, nihilists still appear to hold the worth of any subjective meaning to the standard of being absolute. Since nihilism dismisses absolute meaning, nothing can then measure up to that implied standard.

Which begs the question: why assume that absolute meaning is the only meaning that can have worth? It seems a contradiction that a philosophy that rejects subjective meaning also embraces it at its core.

It is not necessarily obvious on the surface that nihilism embraces subjective meaning, but consider an example: A nihilist ponders her own life, considering whether it has value. She concludes that her life has no ultimate purpose or meaning, and therefore has no value. She dismisses any subjective value she might have applied to her life on those grounds. Here she is making a value judgement, based on the property of being absolute. The value judgement is not explicit but implied.

To me it makes more sense to assume a position with as few a-priori values as possible. I would say that the property of being absolute has no intrinsic value. Which leaves me free to embrace subjective meaning, even while acknowledging that it has no higher or ultimate meaning.

Great post. It really made me think about this subject. Mostly, it made me think about how incredible wise I am... :lol:

A true nihilist would be a suicide in pretty short order. If nothing matters, then living and dying are identical, except that living takes work. Work implies a meaningful goal, which means that no nihilist can engage in work, which means that the lifespan of a nihilist should be about a week or two, once the dehydration and malnutrition set in.

It is useful to note that, according to Wikipedia, nihilism was invented as a reductio ad absurdum argument against rationalism, and was never meant to be taken seriously on its own.

The truth is that

 

[psychonaut]

A true nihilist would be a suicide in pretty short order. If nothing matters, then living and dying are identical, except that living takes work. Work implies a meaningful goal, which means that no nihilist can engage in work, which means that the lifespan of a nihilist should be about a week or two, once the dehydration and malnutrition set in.

I don't know - maybe a true nihilist would just revert to his/her basic human drives in lieu of any other reason for action. Which means avoiding death. Probably why most nihilists stay alive & depressed, or switch philosophies.

A true nihilist with discipline and an iron will would simply remain motionless until they passed into oblivion.

It is useful to note that, according to Wikipedia, nihilism was invented as a reductio ad absurdum argument against rationalism, and was never meant to be taken seriously on its own.

That's interesting. I find it ironic that many arguments meant as reductio ad absurdum actually are only absurd if one accepts the assumptions that the arguer is trying to convince you of. I find it a weak strategy in general.

 

[Unidentified]

So that's what Nihilism is, huh? I guess you could label me as a nihilist. :lol:

I believe that nothing is objective, that everything we see before us, all of our creations (esp. culture); are subjective.

Which leaves me with the question, How did we form all of our predispositions in the first place? :?

I guess ever since I was twelve, I've been trying to rid myself of every biased aspect I possibly can (and I fail horribly at that )

Everything, apart from personal experience is objective, and not subjective. Subjectivity barely exists, and when it comes to opinions, there's never a credible one, it's either right or it's wrong. Something doesn't suddenly become right because it's 'my/their/his/her opinion'. For everything subjective, there is still an objective base. The mind is where experience is bred, and even then, that has an objective base - the brain.