My Philosophy Teacher Is A Born Again Christian

[JacobEvans]

First day of being a High School senior and I've already gotten myself in a debate with my new Philosophy teacher...

Basically what happened is......

First he asked the class whether they knew what "truth" was. As I was already a bit giddy learning me and my other Atheist friend would be together in a class nicknamed "debate class", I decided to humor him....

I answered "Truth is that which can be verified by all observers, and that which is factual." He said " So everything must be agreed upon by all observers?" hinting that truth could be distorted by false perception of the observers. I clarified that my answer was the Objectivist answer, relying on the necessary assumption that reality is the same for everyone, and that someone with a more Descartesian outlook might give another answer completely, but that is only due to the vagueness of the term.

He then asked me, if truth can change, I answered it depends on the context of the "truth". I used an analogy that if I had a house and I painted it white, I can say that it is true that my house is white, but if I paint the house red, I can say that it is true that the house is red, but not white. Therefor as the situation changed, so did the "truth". I said that if the question of whether the house was at sometime painted white, the truth won't change once the conditions are met for the answer to be yes.... ( I was probably being a bit too much of a smart ass but hey, it's philosophy class!)

Then we began discussing morality and right and wrong, and I couldn't get him to clarify what he meant by right and wrong, so when he asked me if I could think of anything that was always wrong, I told him I couldn't. He asked me if I could ever think of a situation in which child molestation wouldn't be wrong, trying to get me to either defend molestation or concede. I gave the whole Tfoot reply about society choosing what is morally right and wrong, and that I couldn't think of a society in which child molestation would be accepted (totally forgot the Bible and many hunter gatherer tribes) but since right and wrong are arbitrary, to call child molestation "purely" wrong instead of calling it unethical by today's standards, and I clarified that I am part of society and I made it very clear I am against molestation, probably as much as he was.

I used the seemingly backward morality in the Bible as an example of something being right in one society and wrong in another and that claiming absolute morality is futile. He wanted sources, so I am writing down my favorite examples which I will then show him tomorrow.

SOOO.... can I count on some help from the League if he ever stumps me?


EDIT

I might use any ideas suggested on this topic.

 

[IrBubble]

He won't, don't worry about it.

 

[JacobEvans]

He won't, don't worry about it.

You never know, I've been stumped by street preachers! Sometimes their logic is so poor, I can't follow them, and I don't know what I'm arguing against anymore.

 

[theatheistguy]

Kewl, looks like you are able to hold your own, but indeed, this is what the league is for.

 

[e2iPi]

Philosophy has always been a bit subjective for my taste, but I'll help any way I can.

i^2

 

[IrBubble]

Okay my tips would be never to let anything off the hook. Keep notes of what he said and which premises he used to get to conclusions, because red herrings can make things very hard to refute in a live conversation. Also don't let him abuse occams razor to trick you into trying to disprove a case which he hasn't proven.

And I will help to the best of my capacity as well.

 

[borrofburi]

Kewl, looks like you are able to hold your own, but indeed, this is what the league is for.

Vicarious debating? I guess I came to the right place then...

 

[ImprobableJoe]

He won't, don't worry about it.

There's a good chance he WILL stump young Mr. Evans at least once. There's a good chance that someone who teaches a class on a subject will have heard more arguments than someone taking the class. Plus, a skilled teacher will have a couple of puzzles up his sleeve for the smart kids, meant to make them sweat a little harder than the material he prevents to the class as a whole.

I'm sure everyone here will jump on a chance to tackle questions from a real person like a teacher, and find out what sort of responses come out of it.

 

[JacobEvans]

I'm glad I'm getting so much support!

I'm so stoked for school now. I can tell he's not used to any questioning to his odd logic, and I'm going to call him out on everything. He said that the class is one in which we should be able to freely exchange ideas and our opinions and we won't get penalized for our opinions.

 

[JacobEvans]

I'm sure everyone here will jump on a chance to tackle questions from a real person like a teacher, and find out what sort of responses come out of it.

I hope so! I know this guy's a HARD CORE creationist, he has videos, I might post if I can find them. I hope that maybe seeing a student provide a better argument for topics like religion and science than the teacher, perhaps the kids who might be on the fence would be at least inspired to do some more research on their own before being manipulated by this born again.

I've helped many other teens question and later let go of their long held beliefs and enter the world of rational thinking!

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Then we began discussing morality and right and wrong, and I couldn't get him to clarify what he meant by right and wrong, so when he asked me if I could think of anything that was always wrong, I told him I couldn't. He asked me if I could ever think of a situation in which child molestation wouldn't be wrong, trying to get me to either defend molestation or concede. I gave the whole Tfoot reply about society choosing what is morally right and wrong, and that I couldn't think of a society in which child molestation would be accepted (totally forgot the Bible and many hunter gatherer tribes) but since right and wrong are arbitrary, to call child molestation "purely" wrong instead of calling it unethical by today's standards, and I clarified that I am part of society and I made it very clear I am against molestation, probably as much as he was.

Speaking of which... I would say that "child molestation" is always wrong, in every situation. However, that is because the wrong is hidden in the label, which makes all sorts of unspoken assumptions about the societal views on sexual contact between adults and children, and the meanings behind those actions. If an adult inserts a finger into a child's orifices in a sexual manner, we define that as "molestation" and it is wrong.

However, if the contact isn't sexual, and the adult is a doctor, suddenly it is no longer molestation at all, it is now a medical procedure. To my knowledge there is no trauma attached to medical procedures involving, as a for instance, the insertion of a thermometer in a child's anus. The context of an act matters, and some are harmful while others are not. I'm obviously not supporting pedophilia, because I live in a society where there is no conceivable context where sexual contact with a child isn't molestation, but that doesn't mean that I can rule out the possibility, no matter how slim, that there might be a context where it might even be wrong NOT to take part in behavior that I find physically repulsive.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I'm glad I'm getting so much support!

I'm so stoked for school now. I can tell he's not used to any questioning to his odd logic, and I'm going to call him out on everything. He said that the class is one in which we should be able to freely exchange ideas and our opinions and we won't get penalized for our opinions.

One word of caution: if you get a rebuttal from here or anywhere else, present it as someone else's work, or at least acknowledge the fact that you collaborated with others to get your answer. The last thing you need is to give an excellent response, and then be called a plagiarist and have your response dismissed in an attack on your integrity.

 

[JacobEvans]

Philosophy has always been a bit subjective for my taste, but I'll help any way I can.

i^2

That's why I'm arguing for objectivism. It's the idea that we can perceive/understand reality through observing/measuring and that it is the same for all people that justifies using science as a method of knowledge finding.

 

[JacobEvans]

Speaking of which... I would say that "child molestation" is always wrong, in every situation. However, that is because the wrong is hidden in the label, which makes all sorts of unspoken assumptions about the societal views on sexual contact between adults and children, and the meanings behind those actions. If an adult inserts a finger into a child's orifices in a sexual manner, we define that as "molestation" and it is wrong.

However, if the contact isn't sexual, and the adult is a doctor, suddenly it is no longer molestation at all, it is now a medical procedure. To my knowledge there is no trauma attached to medical procedures involving, as a for instance, the insertion of a thermometer in a child's anus. The context of an act matters, and some are harmful while others are not. I'm obviously not supporting pedophilia, because I live in a society where there is no conceivable context where sexual contact with a child isn't molestation, but that doesn't mean that I can rule out the possibility, no matter how slim, that there might be a context where it might even be wrong NOT to take part in behavior that I find physically repulsive.

That is definitely true, and that would have been kind of a "back up" argument if I had trouble with my first.

One word of caution: if you get a rebuttal from here or anywhere else, present it as someone else's work, or at least acknowledge the fact that you collaborated with others to get your answer. The last thing you need is to give an excellent response, and then be called a plagiarist and have your response dismissed in an attack on your integrity.

I've definitely got that in mind, I'm really good at making sure I don't steal ideas so easily. I will probably refer to you as "as a friend of mine pointed out" or "As I've discussed with an acquaintance". Does anyone mind that? I will always make it known when I got the idea from someone else.

 

[IrBubble]

Just state it in your original post, and tell people that if they answer in this post their ideas might be used.

 

[JacobEvans]

I think my other atheist friend in the class is joining the league.

 

[JacobEvans]

Oh dear god, I found his videos. I'm afraid to post the link as it's so terrible, I'm not really wanting to be accused of slander. :shock:

 

[IrBubble]

Just post it.

 

[ApolloFC]

I'm the "atheist friend"

His videos are quite amusing, you should post them Jacob! :lol:

 

[ImprobableJoe]

We're waiting?