MineMineMine
New Member
suicide coward?
sure there is nothing scary about jumping off a bridge o.0
sure there is nothing scary about jumping off a bridge o.0
-
Welcome to League Of Reason Forums! Please read the rules before posting.
If you are willing and able please consider making a donation to help with site overheads.
Donations can be made via here
My oppinions on Suicide.
- Thread starter Exmortis
- Start date
AdmiralPeacock said:
I definitely agree here. Don't think it's too big of a stretch to see that perhaps sentience and the perception of self-determination has its consequences.
Exmortis said:
Well frankly I think this isn't too far from how suicidal humans perceive themselves. Do they not lack a sense self worth? And by extension, they no longer want to be a bother or burden to others? Not saying that's the whole picture, but certainly usually part of it.
Yfelsung said:
The more absurd life is, or the more absurd the rest of the human population is and deals with the absurdness of life. To connect to someone is as I see it the most important thing you can have while being alive, not only someone to talk to someone who understands it. There are people going to stores just to have some human contact in the form of a ''good day'' or ''hi''. Think of all those empty conversations you have had nice but meaningless.
Now your all acting like it's some gift you aught to accept (I do not feel suicidal nor do I have suicidal thoughts) truth is you were born, and the gift of life was forced upon you. Now you can be happy with it, neutral and just go along with it, but you can also refuse it. it's anyone's own right to decide whether he wants to live or die. Some dam help must be in place though, haste decisions happen way to frequently and with the choice between live and dead is one, one sadly cannot regret.
If I ever come to a point of wanting to commit suicide I would remember myself that I can do anything at all, I could simply jump on the next plane to Hawai to chill, to Africa to see people who do want to live but cannot or if you have no cash just jump on some freight train to destination unknown.
Wether suicide is selfish or just plain coward-ism? I don't know, and I don't care.
Independent Vision
New Member
I seriously contemplated suicide repeatedly for a period of a little over ten years. (Age 9 - 21)
I understand that it can be hard for people to actually put themselves in the position of people who are that depressed and desperate. But suicide is not as simple as some would make it out to be.
In the mind of some people who actually commit suicide or seriously are contemplating it they are doing the world a favor. They do believe their families, friends, significant others, classmates, colleagues e.t.c will be better off without them. To them what they do won't case harm, it will be the one positive thing they could do.
Others have chemical imbalances that they cannot deal with anymore, and they don't want to be a burden to the people around them any longer. They see all the pain they cause, but can barely manage to get out of bed in the morning, let alone make a positive change.
A third group have just dealt with an impossible situation for far too long and cannot deal with it anymore. It's not cowardice, it's hopelessness.
There are as many explanations for suicide as there are people contemplating it.
I don't think people who feel it's cowardice and/or the easy way out have ever really been in that position. They might have seen the abyss from afar, but I doubt a lot of them have actually stood at it's mouth.
I don't even know how I made it through. I think it might have been a combination of knowing that if I failed, I could have been crippled or permanently disabled for the rest of my life. I was also afraid it would be painful.
There was a long period of time where I thought I was a coward for not killing myself. I thought everyone would have been better off, but my fear of pain and being crippled held me back. I thought I was being selfish and weak and a coward for not offing myself.
The mind of a person on that edge isn't functioning in the same way as others might.
I understand that it can be hard for people to actually put themselves in the position of people who are that depressed and desperate. But suicide is not as simple as some would make it out to be.
In the mind of some people who actually commit suicide or seriously are contemplating it they are doing the world a favor. They do believe their families, friends, significant others, classmates, colleagues e.t.c will be better off without them. To them what they do won't case harm, it will be the one positive thing they could do.
Others have chemical imbalances that they cannot deal with anymore, and they don't want to be a burden to the people around them any longer. They see all the pain they cause, but can barely manage to get out of bed in the morning, let alone make a positive change.
A third group have just dealt with an impossible situation for far too long and cannot deal with it anymore. It's not cowardice, it's hopelessness.
There are as many explanations for suicide as there are people contemplating it.
I don't think people who feel it's cowardice and/or the easy way out have ever really been in that position. They might have seen the abyss from afar, but I doubt a lot of them have actually stood at it's mouth.
I don't even know how I made it through. I think it might have been a combination of knowing that if I failed, I could have been crippled or permanently disabled for the rest of my life. I was also afraid it would be painful.
There was a long period of time where I thought I was a coward for not killing myself. I thought everyone would have been better off, but my fear of pain and being crippled held me back. I thought I was being selfish and weak and a coward for not offing myself.
The mind of a person on that edge isn't functioning in the same way as others might.
A wonderful sentiment if I ever did hear one.
Hereby having the meaning of what exactly?
Additionally, why must humans be so special to have all of these extra functions. True enough, we are remarkably intelligent in comparison to other species. However, does this mean we have entirely different components.
Would it not make more sense, if our sophisticated abilities were but an extension of our desire to survive, that our powers of higher thought had given us the ability to mold the world to our liking and consequentially we were forced to enhance our basic survival instincts into new and exotic abilities. All just so that we may survive in an environment which has been shaped to a degree so far beyond anything our bestial cousins and ancestors had ever attempted?
I did not mean that I literally laughed at the thought of causing oneself harm. I merely meant that it was ridiculous to comprehend, or at least from my perspective, you or others may think differently.
Furthermore, your colleagues have already supplied ample examples of animals killing themselves. My platform now is that these deaths are sacrifices or at very least partially justifies in some manner. For example, a wolf ailing of a critical injury would remove itself from it's pack and die elsewhere as to not hinder it's fellows.
Human suicides are not always so necessary. Humans kill themselves for reasons which are complex to say the least but at times over simple trivialities of life. If you fail a test you become depressed, if you lose the interest of a crush you become depressed. And so on, humans may get depressed for no reason at all, this could be linked to a physical aliment of some kind or it could to connected to some kind of deep psychological conundrum.
Andiferous
New Member
Exmortis said:
People cause themselves harm all the time, just not to such extremes. I agree humans are irredeemably absurd, but in saying so, I do also see some absurdity in throwing stones in glass houses. To have an opinion on situations of suicide and stuff is okay, hopefully being informed in the process, but to make personal judgment on it and other all-encompassing general topics is just example of human absurdity lacking of reason or information. It's a personal reflex and ought to be presented as a personal belief, and as such is easier digested.
What a load of ignorance. You know suicide is typically caused by depression, right? And not by the nonexistent flaw in reasoning that you think you've cleverly spotted in suicides?
Suicide is cowardly? Yes, only cowards could possibly have their behavior affected by a neurological disorder. Oh, schizophrenic? You're just a madman (or insert whatever other bullshit layperson terminology you feel like). What is this, the 1800s?
This is plain pseudoscientific folk psychology, and it says a lot about you that you judge depressed people for killing themselves, as if they were perfectly healthy and thought "ahh, this is hard, I'm out", so trivially, rather than being the victims of a mental health problem. It is completely obvious that you don't have any clue what you're talking about whatsoever. I see your post to be as bad as all sorts of religious shit we frequently refute on this kind of site.
Suicide is cowardly? Yes, only cowards could possibly have their behavior affected by a neurological disorder. Oh, schizophrenic? You're just a madman (or insert whatever other bullshit layperson terminology you feel like). What is this, the 1800s?
This is plain pseudoscientific folk psychology, and it says a lot about you that you judge depressed people for killing themselves, as if they were perfectly healthy and thought "ahh, this is hard, I'm out", so trivially, rather than being the victims of a mental health problem. It is completely obvious that you don't have any clue what you're talking about whatsoever. I see your post to be as bad as all sorts of religious shit we frequently refute on this kind of site.
Andiferous
New Member
Aught3 said:
I am very glad to hear, as most people are when liking those who declare this upon learning their stance on suicide.
But think about it. Why isn't suicide listed on constitutional personal rights and freedoms? We're all debating someone elses' most intimate personal choice and imagined reasons or failed justifications for it. Yes, humans are absurd. And irony is god.
Andiferous
New Member
Aught3 said:
I think so, yes.
Dragan Glas
Well-Known Member
Greetings,
I confess that I found Exmortis's first post in this topic somewhat harsh - as others have commented, it showed a lack of understanding of the many reasons for suicide.
Let me provide some examples...
Many years ago, after starting a family, my mother needed to have all of her teeth removed.
The dentist did so and sent her home (by taxi), where she lay in bed, recovering from the anaesthetic.
As the anaesthetic began to wear off, she felt a tingling sensation slowly run round her gums - then there was a pause, before the process repeated, only now it became stronger. Also, as the process repeated, ti turned from a tingling sensation to a painful one.
She quickly realised that this was only going to get more painful as it repeated: her gums were regaining feeling and were reporting the damage of missing, pulled-out teeth.
Years later, she told me that, despite her having been a nurse (during World War II), she hadn't understood how anyone could commit suicide (as a Roman Catholic, this was understandable). However, as the pain got worse - and knowing that it was going to keep doing so on each "circuit" - she was ready to throw herself out the bedroom window.
It was only then that she understood why people committed suicide: to escape unbearable pain.
What stopped her doing so was the knowledge that she had a husband and two young children (my twin brother and I).
[When our family doctor heard that Mum had been sent home immediately after the dental surgery, he was shocked and appalled - he said she should have been kept in the hospital for observation and medication/care to alleviate pain and ensure she was alright (didn't try to kill herself).]
When I was in my teens, I'd become depressed due to not being able to see my way forward - this was due to a strict RC/military upbringing where I'd come to believe that a particular transgression on my part was a case of "that's it - I'm going to Hell!". (Needless to say, it wasn't but - as Billy Connolly said - "I went to a Roman Catholic school - I majored in guilt". )
I'd occasionally open the kitchen drawers and look at the knives - I knew it wasn't a solution, both from my RC upbringing and my belief in reincarnation (I'd only have to come back and face the same problems).
As I often do, I read everything I could, looking for "answers" - other religions, philosophy, psychology, and further afield into parapsychology/magic/UFOs/etc/
I was reading one book whilst lying on my bed - on astrology, as it happened - where the author was mouthing the usual platitudes: "...it may appear hopeless now, but in time you'll look back and see yourself as a dog howling in the dark..." sort-of-thing.
I felt such revulsion at this psycho-babble that I threw the book from me onto the floor - and felt ashamed at myself: I always have taken care of my books and had never done that to a book before (or since). I got up from the bed, went over and picked up the book to check it to ensure it wasn't damaged and then put it back on its shelf, determined never to read such drivel again.
Time passed.
About a year later, I felt like reading something.
I scanned my bookshelves looking for something to read and my eyes fell on that same book - having started a book, I don't like to leave it unfinished - and decided to give it another try.
I started reading through it until I began to realise I was coming to the same point in the book where I'd thrown it away.
I reached that point and - with some mild astonishment - continued to read it to the end without any negative reaction. I found I actually agreed with the author's comment above.
To this day, I can't say where or when my perspective changed regarding the issue that had caused my depression - sometime during the intervening year, my perspective on life had changed, like a sand dune which is moved, one grain at a time, from there to here by a gentle but steady breeze.
More recently, having returned to Ireland from the UK to look after my mother, who suffers from Alzheimer's, after a year or so, I'd begun to become depressed at not being able to make progress with her - she doesn't want me here or have anyone in the house/visiting or go to the doctor/hospital for check-ups, take her tablets, etc.
I hadn't realised it - it was only when I went for a week's "respite" to my brother in the UK that he told me that he (and his girlfriend) were shocked to see how depressed I was looking. (I should point out that my brother was helping out financially as I wasn't working - not being sure whether I could leave her on her own or not: she does do some potentially dangerous things - leaving pots boiling on the hob, front door open, etc.)
Since coming back I've changed things - made contact with home-care people, Carer's Association, the local health nurse, etc - to try and change how I'm dealing with Mum and her health problems.
I'd made a classic mistake of assuming that it was up to me to deal with everything rather than seek help - for myself, as much as my mother - in coping with the situation.
I've also turned to books - as usual - like "Overcoming Depression", by Prof. Gilbert, etc.
[I'd also come across an article on a diet-based approach to addiction, where it reports that research had shown that lack of tryptophan (found in fish, brown rice, etc) in the diet could result in depressive-like symptoms. It seems that one's diet can result in depression if one isn't careful. (Treatment on a plate)]
Exmortis, I trust that the above personal anecdotes might help clear up any misunderstanding over the causes of suicide, and, perhaps, help those who are contemplating taking their own life.
Kindest regards,
James
I confess that I found Exmortis's first post in this topic somewhat harsh - as others have commented, it showed a lack of understanding of the many reasons for suicide.
Let me provide some examples...
Many years ago, after starting a family, my mother needed to have all of her teeth removed.
The dentist did so and sent her home (by taxi), where she lay in bed, recovering from the anaesthetic.
As the anaesthetic began to wear off, she felt a tingling sensation slowly run round her gums - then there was a pause, before the process repeated, only now it became stronger. Also, as the process repeated, ti turned from a tingling sensation to a painful one.
She quickly realised that this was only going to get more painful as it repeated: her gums were regaining feeling and were reporting the damage of missing, pulled-out teeth.
Years later, she told me that, despite her having been a nurse (during World War II), she hadn't understood how anyone could commit suicide (as a Roman Catholic, this was understandable). However, as the pain got worse - and knowing that it was going to keep doing so on each "circuit" - she was ready to throw herself out the bedroom window.
It was only then that she understood why people committed suicide: to escape unbearable pain.
What stopped her doing so was the knowledge that she had a husband and two young children (my twin brother and I).
[When our family doctor heard that Mum had been sent home immediately after the dental surgery, he was shocked and appalled - he said she should have been kept in the hospital for observation and medication/care to alleviate pain and ensure she was alright (didn't try to kill herself).]
When I was in my teens, I'd become depressed due to not being able to see my way forward - this was due to a strict RC/military upbringing where I'd come to believe that a particular transgression on my part was a case of "that's it - I'm going to Hell!". (Needless to say, it wasn't but - as Billy Connolly said - "I went to a Roman Catholic school - I majored in guilt".
)I'd occasionally open the kitchen drawers and look at the knives - I knew it wasn't a solution, both from my RC upbringing and my belief in reincarnation (I'd only have to come back and face the same problems).
As I often do, I read everything I could, looking for "answers" - other religions, philosophy, psychology, and further afield into parapsychology/magic/UFOs/etc/
I was reading one book whilst lying on my bed - on astrology, as it happened - where the author was mouthing the usual platitudes: "...it may appear hopeless now, but in time you'll look back and see yourself as a dog howling in the dark..." sort-of-thing.
I felt such revulsion at this psycho-babble that I threw the book from me onto the floor - and felt ashamed at myself: I always have taken care of my books and had never done that to a book before (or since). I got up from the bed, went over and picked up the book to check it to ensure it wasn't damaged and then put it back on its shelf, determined never to read such drivel again.
Time passed.
About a year later, I felt like reading something.
I scanned my bookshelves looking for something to read and my eyes fell on that same book - having started a book, I don't like to leave it unfinished - and decided to give it another try.
I started reading through it until I began to realise I was coming to the same point in the book where I'd thrown it away.
I reached that point and - with some mild astonishment - continued to read it to the end without any negative reaction. I found I actually agreed with the author's comment above.
To this day, I can't say where or when my perspective changed regarding the issue that had caused my depression - sometime during the intervening year, my perspective on life had changed, like a sand dune which is moved, one grain at a time, from there to here by a gentle but steady breeze.
More recently, having returned to Ireland from the UK to look after my mother, who suffers from Alzheimer's, after a year or so, I'd begun to become depressed at not being able to make progress with her - she doesn't want me here or have anyone in the house/visiting or go to the doctor/hospital for check-ups, take her tablets, etc.
I hadn't realised it - it was only when I went for a week's "respite" to my brother in the UK that he told me that he (and his girlfriend) were shocked to see how depressed I was looking. (I should point out that my brother was helping out financially as I wasn't working - not being sure whether I could leave her on her own or not: she does do some potentially dangerous things - leaving pots boiling on the hob, front door open, etc.)
Since coming back I've changed things - made contact with home-care people, Carer's Association, the local health nurse, etc - to try and change how I'm dealing with Mum and her health problems.
I'd made a classic mistake of assuming that it was up to me to deal with everything rather than seek help - for myself, as much as my mother - in coping with the situation.
I've also turned to books - as usual - like "Overcoming Depression", by Prof. Gilbert, etc.
[I'd also come across an article on a diet-based approach to addiction, where it reports that research had shown that lack of tryptophan (found in fish, brown rice, etc) in the diet could result in depressive-like symptoms. It seems that one's diet can result in depression if one isn't careful. (Treatment on a plate)]
Exmortis, I trust that the above personal anecdotes might help clear up any misunderstanding over the causes of suicide, and, perhaps, help those who are contemplating taking their own life.
Kindest regards,
James