My best friend is a creationist

[monitoradiation]

So... Today while going through my shelf my best friend came across a book entitled "The short history of nearly everything" (which, by the way, is a tremendously good read ) and as I was suggesting for her to read it as I'd find it enjoyable, she asked me what it's about. I then told her that it's a description, in layman's terms, of quite literally the history of everything from bigbang to the world as it is today.

She then told me she doesn't know "what to think about the bigbang" because she's a creationist. That was quite surprising as she had always had an interest in paleontology and archeology. Now, I'm quite sure she's one of the types that just signed on to the creationist bandwagon without thinking it through as she was brought up christian. So I asked her if she literally believes in the genesis creation and that the Earth is 6000 years old. She didn't reply to any of those questions. I then changed subjects since I knew she was unwilling to have her beliefs challenged overtly and we had a good time after that.

We rarely talk about religious subjects but I want her to at least entertain the possibility that her belief system is bolsheviks and that her interest in archeology and the christian creation myth are pretty much mutually exclusive. I don't want to de-convert her, I want her to know and believe in as many true things as she can.

What should I do?

 

[Marcus]

Nothing. If she's your friend and doesn't want to discuss this with you, don't push it. From what you say, it doesn't seem like creationism is something she sees as central to who she is, and I'm assuming you have plenty of things in common that sustain your friendship. If things come up naturally, continue to educate her and point to the evidence, but don't keep forcing the issue if it makes her uncomfortable. I'm assuming, since you describe her as your best friend, that your friendship is more important to you than your disagreement over this one matter, so keep it in proportion.

 

[salko7]

Nothing. If she's your friend and doesn't want to discuss this with you, don't push it. From what you say, it doesn't seem like creationism is something she sees as central to who she is, and I'm assuming you have plenty of things in common that sustain your friendship. If things come up naturally, continue to educate her and point to the evidence, but don't keep forcing the issue if it makes her uncomfortable. I'm assuming, since you describe her as your best friend, that your friendship is more important to you than your disagreement over this one matter, so keep it in proportion.

i agree...
living in KSA its easy to to have a friend who believes in what the quran and hadeeth(prophets sayings) says , as a friend we didn't talk much about religion tho it was clear to both of us that one believe non of it and the other believes it (tho there's more detail about the actions of this person that i should point out but theres no need for it here) , we both treated each other as people didn't care about what that person does with his belief (just for the sake of the friendship) , but then as we started slowly getting into the religion debate all hell fire got lose... some how the friend ship survived, but some of it is worn out, but i advise you to not go there at all let the person them selves look into it pushing it on them wont get them to disbelieve in it let them do the work maybe point out something if they ask and let them search for the answer.

 

[monitoradiation]

Mmm. Thanks for your replies.

She's one of those people that I don't think is even christian, just hasn't thought through her beliefs yet. A nominal christian. It just struck me as strange that she, as a nominal christian, would take genesis as true and become skeptical of the bigbang because of that. I care that she doesnt let beliefs that she hasn't even thought through yet to influence her impression of the beginning of the universe, or perhaps other areas of life. It's quite sad.

Anyway, I suppose I'll just carry on as usual and hopefully she'll want to know why I'm an atheist one day and then maybe we can have a good discussion. Thanks guys.

 

[IrBubble]

She might have examined the evidence and come up with that the evidence for a creation is more compelling than the evidence for the big bang, stellar evolution, planetary formation, bio chemical reaction leading to abio genisis and lastly biological evolution through natural selection.

At times the arguments for creation do seem convincing when delivered "properly" and not thoroughly refuted. She might not have experienced the same sources as you have, and you may not have heard the arguments for creation that she has.

Now I'm not going anywhere with this other than that some ID proponents claim that ID is a secular idea, and it might have stuck on her. So doesn't have to be her christianity that has lead here there.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

She might have examined the evidence and come up with that the evidence for a creation is more compelling than the evidence for the big bang, stellar evolution, planetary formation, bio chemical reaction leading to abio genisis and lastly biological evolution through natural selection.

What's more likely is that she's never really given it any thought, and therefore chooses her opinion based on what trusted people have told her, in the absence of any contrary information.

We folks on Internet message boards hashing out the details of these ideas sometimes forget that most people have better things to do. I've got a big stack of science, religion, and politics books... most people I talk to haven't read as many books total as I have read on just those subjects, including school assignments.

Odds are, she's never examined anything, and may not even have the background to understand our standard attacks on creationism...


... maybe there's a HUGE lesson to be learned from that!

 

[IrBubble]

Yes you're right. That's why we have a responsibility to save the internet(s) from creationist stupidity so that it is safe for everyone who is not trained in tube-fu to enjoy the pipes :lol:

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Yes you're right. That's why we have a responsibility to save the internet(s) from creationist stupidity so that it is safe for everyone who is not trained in tube-fu to enjoy the pipes :lol:

That;s also why I think there's a place for snark and mockery. After all, most creationists didn't invest any thought in their beliefs, so why would you expect them to be swayed by thinking in the other direction?

I'm not being a snob either... I know full well that there are plenty of things in my life that I prefer because of purely emotional reasons. If you want me to change my mind, you would probably have to find better emotional reasons.

 

[IrBubble]

I will just assume that you don't claim that quantum physics is wrong because you like your cat more than your neighbours cat. If this is true, and you're not trying to convince people that they ought to be thinking like you due to emotion, than there's really no problem.

There is in my opinion nothing wrong with having faith, or emotions for that matter, as long as you accept that it is faith (or emotions) and do not take it as undeniable truths.

 

[monitoradiation]

She might have examined the evidence and come up with that the evidence for a creation is more compelling than the evidence for the big bang, stellar evolution, planetary formation, bio chemical reaction leading to abio genisis and lastly biological evolution through natural selection.

At times the arguments for creation do seem convincing when delivered "properly" and not thoroughly refuted. She might not have experienced the same sources as you have, and you may not have heard the arguments for creation that she has.

Now I'm not going anywhere with this other than that some ID proponents claim that ID is a secular idea, and it might have stuck on her. So doesn't have to be her christianity that has lead here there.

Well. The problem is that I know we hold differing beliefs and I'm almost positive as to why she holds hers. I also know how to refute her potential points, thanks to LoR and the atheist community on YouTube and in general. I don't even care if she has good evidence for creation or whatnot. I just want us to be able to talk about it.

The way it is between us is pretty much like religion is the one subject that we tiptoe around. Everything else in our friendship has been open for discussion; but everything that even tangentially touches her religion gets undue respect and it infuriates me to no end that I can't challenge the christian creation myth without offending her.

It's BS, really. There's a lot of things I haven't discussed with her at length simply because of her religion. It almost makes me feel like our friendship exists solely on a superficial level, because I can't talk to her about anything philosophical because "Jesus did everything and will take care of you so who cares about existentialism or where morality comes from".

 

[Minardi666]

Yep, you can,´t do nothing, if she,´s really a creationist, she,´s apparently lost cause. Creationists don,´t accept ANY evidence from evolutionists - so the only hope is, that she maybe "grows up" one day.

 

[borrofburi]

Having been in this situation for many years I shall now offer my immense wisdom on the subject. /sarcasm (ok not enirely sarcasm, I really have been in this situation for many years).

First a question: are you male? Do you care for her on a "deeper" level than friendship? Those two change things quite a lot.

Well. The problem is that I know we hold differing beliefs and I'm almost positive as to why she holds hers.

How precisely is this a problem? Annoying, yes a little bit, but judge the risks versus benefits: if you push and she withdraws you lose a very valuable friendship, if you push and succeed you two agree a little more on things in general. People don't like to be pushed, even I don't generally like to be pushed, how would you feel if your friend were to push you regarding religion?*** It's most likely just going to lead to anger and disagreement and rocky friendship.

***I personally would feel trapped, not because I don't think I can win, but because I perceive an agenda, and don't think it's fair for them to go "you are wrong, I am right, why can't you see this?" I would not feel trapped if the conversation were put in a "I disagree with your worldview, how about we exchange world views" manner. If you really absolutely must talk to her about it, take a play from the psychologists and phrase it in lots of "I feel" language and any non-threatening "I'm-open-to-being-wrong" language you can. Again, no one likes to be told "I think you're wrong now agree with me", which, while not necessarily the way you approach this, is what almost everyone in this sort of situation will *feel*.

The way it is between us is pretty much like religion is the one subject that we tiptoe around. Everything else in our friendship has been open for discussion; but everything that even tangentially touches her religion gets undue respect and it infuriates me to no end that I can't challenge the christian creation myth without offending her.

Again, this is indeed annoying, but is it really worth starting an argument over? I think what you really want (and what I have wanted very much) is to be able talk about it without it offending the other party, but is there any way you can hope to change *that*? Not that I really know of, it would be great if there were three options: talk about it and offend her, not talk about it not offend her but feel distanced because of it, and change her so she won't be offended talking about it. But I don't really think the third one is an option, and while frustrating that leaves us with two options, and all we can do is pick the best of the two.

It's BS, really. There's a lot of things I haven't discussed with her at length simply because of her religion. It almost makes me feel like our friendship exists solely on a superficial level, because I can't talk to her about anything philosophical because "Jesus did everything and will take care of you so who cares about existentialism or where morality comes from".

I think this is the core of the issue. This is where your perceived "problem" primarily comes from: you feel/think that it means your friendship must be superficial, that a "deeper" friendship will talk about morality and other such things. I disagree.

I've had a superficial friendship in which we discuss morality a lot, both with someone who agrees and someone who disagrees. I've also had very meaningful friendships with people who have a completely different worldview. The depth of a friendship comes from caring for that person, regardless of what they think or how they think it, and each party's willingness to help or sacrifice for the other, one of the hardest of which is keeping in regular contact when geological convenience is absent, as well as the trust associated with that friend. These things have little to do with ideology or world view.

One of my closest friends is only my friend because she long ago decided we would be friends, so we are, and we remain friends because we trust each other, despite us often getting into fights because we think differently and have difficulty comprehending the other: we trust each other to never purposefully be malicious towards the other, friction comes from disagreements and misunderstandings, but never through ill will. This works because both of us have always respected each-other and cared for each-other, have had empathy and have gone out of our way to be helpful, truly do appreciate the other's unique perspective on a problem situation.

/rant, I apologize for the length, I am merely trying to be helpful having been in this situation myself.