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Most devasting single argument against Theism?
- Thread starter Sigrhofundr
- Start date
masterjedijared
New Member
Astro Glide! Now everyone can enjoy the cumming of the Lord!
godisabullet
New Member
......... is theism itself.
The idea that every person on the planet should worship something that can not, by definition be proven to exist.
And consider the following sign outside a church (it goes something like):
People say, 'show me evidence and I will believe.' God says, 'believe and I will show you evidence.'
The idea that every person on the planet should worship something that can not, by definition be proven to exist.
And consider the following sign outside a church (it goes something like):
People say, 'show me evidence and I will believe.' God says, 'believe and I will show you evidence.'
Andiferous
New Member
Well, speaking as a person, the whole arse holiness erlection started funny until I started to get the urge to run and hide in the corner to preserve my innocence. Don't get me wrong, watching Hack and Joe compete was hilarious with their vague innuendos and providing much fodder for punnage.
Yeah Scalyblue, of course. But bad taste isn't measured metrically and balanced relative to the worst. If you question this, I challenge you to make your significant other or mothers read this thread, and observe their reactions.
We can take a poll!
Speaking as a person of course. And empathising with your mother's reaction.
Yeah Scalyblue, of course. But bad taste isn't measured metrically and balanced relative to the worst. If you question this, I challenge you to make your significant other or mothers read this thread, and observe their reactions.
We can take a poll!Speaking as a person of course. And empathising with your mother's reaction.
ShootMyMonkey
New Member
I find that it is sometimes hard to make one single argument against all of theism. While it might be easy for someone who already doesn't believe to distill their thoughts, what forms tends to be an argument that doesn't address an actual principle of theism/atheism per se. Even the one-liner about "one more god", while succinct, may not necessarily mean much to some die-hard fundy who would say something like "I know my god is real because I know it because I know it," which is probably quite far from the reason why atheists disbelieve.
My most simple argument is that belief can only be validated by demonstrable evidence, and an existence claim means that the only valid evidence is to have a god physically appear and show conclusively that it is a god. Until then, it is irrefutably illogical to believe it does exist. Moreover, if such a thing occurs, god's existence would not be a matter of faith, but a matter of fact. But people disbelieve for different reasons just as people believe for different reasons, and because of that you end up having to attack the foundations of people's individual belief formations.
For instance, I've run across the argument from ignorance countless times, and I've used something like the following --
People who use the argument of faith in science vs. faith in religion, I tend to say something like --
People who talk about people finding comfort and happiness in religion, I often paraphrase Penn Jillette --
My most simple argument is that belief can only be validated by demonstrable evidence, and an existence claim means that the only valid evidence is to have a god physically appear and show conclusively that it is a god. Until then, it is irrefutably illogical to believe it does exist. Moreover, if such a thing occurs, god's existence would not be a matter of faith, but a matter of fact. But people disbelieve for different reasons just as people believe for different reasons, and because of that you end up having to attack the foundations of people's individual belief formations.
For instance, I've run across the argument from ignorance countless times, and I've used something like the following --
People who use the argument of faith in science vs. faith in religion, I tend to say something like --
People who talk about people finding comfort and happiness in religion, I often paraphrase Penn Jillette --
I generally go with the following:
"So do you believe in God?"
"Nope, can't."
"Can't?"
"Can you believe in manticores?"
"No, they're fictional."
"Exactly."
End of discussion.
Sometimes I'll just go
"Nope, can't."
"Can't?"
"IQ of 135"
"And?"
"Too smart to believe in God."
"How so?"
"There's a negative correlation between IQ and belief in God, so if he's real, he made me too smart to believe in him."
Though, to be honest, I aim to piss them off more than refute them.
Can't fix stupid.
"So do you believe in God?"
"Nope, can't."
"Can't?"
"Can you believe in manticores?"
"No, they're fictional."
"Exactly."
End of discussion.
Sometimes I'll just go
"Nope, can't."
"Can't?"
"IQ of 135"
"And?"
"Too smart to believe in God."
"How so?"
"There's a negative correlation between IQ and belief in God, so if he's real, he made me too smart to believe in him."
Though, to be honest, I aim to piss them off more than refute them.
Can't fix stupid.
quantumfireball2099
New Member
The one arguement that did it for me is the Problem of Evil:
1.God exists.
2.God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good.
3.A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.
4.An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
5.An omnipotent being, who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
6.A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
7.If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists.
8.Evil exists (logical contradiction).
1.God exists.
2.God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good.
3.A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.
4.An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
5.An omnipotent being, who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
6.A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
7.If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists.
8.Evil exists (logical contradiction).
I don't get into many discussions/arguments with theists, mostly because I don't know many, but have done so recently at the beginning of the year when we have JW's banging on the door (again) - I found by giving them a small snippet of scientific facts with a hint of Philosophy in there seems to have the desired effect, well they soon left )but not without leaving me a copy of the Watchtower of course).
PhilHellenes's latest YT video "Science Saved My Soul" gives a nice short'ish phrase toward the end similar to the sort of stuff I threw at them which also could be used as an argument stopper:
"Religion has become the reality we cannot face, look at what religion has made us do to ourselves & each other, Religion stole our love & loyelty & gave it to a book about a telepathic father that tells his Children that Love means kneeling before him...it cannot be healthy for a child or a species......We were told long ago & for a long time that there was only the Earth, that we were the centre of everything. That turned out to be wrong & we still haven't fully adjusted & we're still in shock - The Universe is not what we expected it to be & it's not what they told us it would be - this cosmic understanding is all new to us but there's nothing to fear - we're still special, we're still blessed & there might yet be a heaven but it isn't going to be perfect & we're going to have to build it ourselves....." [....add additional comments here]
PhilHellenes's latest YT video "Science Saved My Soul" gives a nice short'ish phrase toward the end similar to the sort of stuff I threw at them which also could be used as an argument stopper:
"Religion has become the reality we cannot face, look at what religion has made us do to ourselves & each other, Religion stole our love & loyelty & gave it to a book about a telepathic father that tells his Children that Love means kneeling before him...it cannot be healthy for a child or a species......We were told long ago & for a long time that there was only the Earth, that we were the centre of everything. That turned out to be wrong & we still haven't fully adjusted & we're still in shock - The Universe is not what we expected it to be & it's not what they told us it would be - this cosmic understanding is all new to us but there's nothing to fear - we're still special, we're still blessed & there might yet be a heaven but it isn't going to be perfect & we're going to have to build it ourselves....." [....add additional comments here]
Sigrhofundr
New Member
ImprobableJoe said:
Yep; a line to make people STFU might have been a good way to have posed the question! It was rather late when I posted it so wasn't the sharpest; I was also thinking of maybe being at some sort of social gathering where some theist had already broken the old rule of never talk about religion or politics, and you couldn't resist slapping them down.
Cheers for all the responses; some good suggestions, other good arguments which are way too long though.
I quite like the Roberts quote, and of course the Epicurus one about omnipotence and the existence of evil.
Still think my initial argument is pretty powerful though.
quantumfireball2099
New Member
Sigrhofundr said:ImprobableJoe said:
Yep; a line to make people STFU might have been a good way to have posed the question! It was rather late when I posted it so wasn't the sharpest; I was also thinking of maybe being at some sort of social gathering where some theist had already broken the old rule of never talk about religion or politics, and you couldn't resist slapping them down.
Cheers for all the responses; some good suggestions, other good arguments which are way too long though.
I quite like the Roberts quote, and of course the Epicurus one about omnipotence and the existence of evil.
Still think my initial argument is pretty powerful though.
Well I can see one issue with your initial argument. Many Christians I know will tell you that God still communicates to his people. They hear him and 'talk' to him on a daily basis. I shit you not. These people are schizophrenics, and my whole family is this way. I love them, but am saddened when I hear them talk this way. Though it makes their lives more meaningful so I digress.
My point being, they still "talk" to him, so he will "prove" himself to anyone who will honestly "listen" for him. Yeah... I grew up with this stuff, he had plenty of times to prove himself to me.
The Epicuris quote hits hard if you can get the Theist to actually think about it.
quantumfireball2099
New Member
They will tell you that God only answers prayers in his own time and way and even then you may not get what you asked for if its not in your best interest according to Godlrkun said:
quantumfireball2099 said:They will tell you that God only answers prayers in his own time and way and even then you may not get what you asked for if its not in your best interest according to Godlrkun said:
What do they know. They're not god. Why doe god need to speak through them, when he/it/she/they/nothing can speak directly to me.
hehe.(You're reply is the common counter-argument given by theists, it's very intuitive hehe.)
OmegaMale said:
Are you claiming that you know god and he/she/it/they/nothing told you to steal money and ask for forgiveness? Do you mean to say I have to do all of the work? What's your basis?
(This reply doesn't work, because it's a sin to steal, so no theist will argue it this way)