Moral Dillema

[nasher168]

There is a guy who I have been debating with for a fair while now. We are on quite good terms, but he is convinced that God exists and that there is a spirit world, just out of sight. His reasons for believing this are very personal, as they are related to his daughter's death. Here is his message explaining it:

I was quite devastated when Laura passed away (daughter) and already having gone through "do I believe in God or not", I knew Him and prayed for His help. Apparently one night I dreamed I saw her standing somewhere and she looked just like she did at age 15. She was again very pretty, and was completely unaware I was seeing her. However! The others standing with her were some kind of angels! I have never seen an angel and thought they would look like the books say and the movies show. You know, women with wings and long flowing dresses, or men with huge wings and arms too.

Well, what I saw was quite different. The angels were looking at me and I could hear what one of them was thinking, and yet he wasn't moving his mouth at all. They were there, but had a bit of "see-through" quality about them. They were dressed in kind of robes, no wings, and very muscular. They each carried arms: swords, spears and sheaths of some type. There was about 5 or 6 standing around her. (I don't know where it exactly was.) She looked very happy and was looking all around from one direction to another. I could hear her hair swishing back and forth and her clothes rustling against the material they were made of! (I felt really different and had capabilities I don't ordinarilly have such as thought transfer, and exceptional sight and hearing.)

I know there was something being said to me by the one angel with his thoughts that she was happier than she ever was on earth and now she was not sick anymore. (She had become obese because of her brain tumor & surgery that messed up the pituitary, hypothamamus, and apistat, and caused her to gain an enormus anount of weight before she died.)

The feeling of crying I had, stopped when I saw how happy she really was and that she no longer carried sickness and disability around with her.

Then I woke up from the dream, and it was morning. The dream was still going on though I blinked thinking I was still asleep. Then I felt a "bump, bump" as though I landed in my bed. I had not been in my room? When I looked around I could still see them! Somone unseen, was rubbing my arm as though to comfort me, and I knew I would remember this for the rest of my life.

This thing has stayed with me like it just happened, even now as I retell it.

I don't know what your name really is Nasher, but I want to tell you there are good and very evil spirit forces here and in the heavens. The reason our outer-space microwave/satelite systems that constantly broadcast "Is there someone out there?" "Reply if so" "Hello is there anyone there?", never get answered, is because there is someone there living side by side with us, and mostly undetectable because they are spirit. Just like I said about the wind, you can see the leaves moving and rustling but not the wind, so is the spirit realm. There is the secret society living here with us but only secret to those who choose to not see the rustling and movement of the spirit realm, where is has been and what it is doing.

Unfortunately, there are people who believe that the devil is god and they are caught up in situations they are not able to recover from and horrible things happen to them and those with whom they come into contact with.

God is not weakness but power, and He is allowing this to go on, with the wrong things until we can learn no more that our way is correct, that if given just a little longer we can succeed in bringing about peace.

He is waiting for the right time, then time will be no more. Never again will there be a question about who's way is right, and in the instant before mankind blows themselves from existence, He is going to intervene and begin setting up His government. There will be a new heaven and a new earth (the creation of a new world and galaxy/galaxies). The word of God says He will come and make His home with the Mankind-species He made and we will look like Him too.

I see that no one has ever told you of the absolute power and strength of the mountains just in weight, and consider the black holes mighty forces, but that God has more strength, and the next time you view the Milky-Way in the heavens through a telescope you will think of the God who is able to have made it. It is a very awsome experience.

My question to you lot is: How can I go through these points and refute/dismiss them without hurting his feelings too much? The dream is quite easy to explain, but he clearly gets quite emotional about it and I would prefer to not seem like I'm just saying: "YOU'RE DAUGHTER'S DEAD, DEAL WITH IT!"

 

[Otokogoroshi]

This sorta reinforces the 'religion is a coping mechanism'. Clearly his faith has made it easier for him to deal with the painful loss of his daughter, something no parent should go through but... alas it happens.

I don't really suggest trying to refute anything that I've read in that story. You can just explain to him your beliefs, why you have them etc. But... it would seem needlessly mean to try to explain away the deeply spiritual experience he had.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

You know, you're not required to debunk any of this. If it makes you feel uncomfortable, it is perfectly acceptable to let it go. I'm all for crushing asshole scumbag theists into the ground, but if you respect the guy and think you're going to do him some real and serious emotional harm, it is OK to just drop it completely, and move on.

 

[RestrictedAccess]

You can't - if you point out that it was just a dream, a product of grief provided by his subconscious, he won't take it well, or brush it off as a typical atheist attempt to deny the supernatural. Clearly his faith is a coping mechanism for his daughters loss, and there's no way you can try to convince him it didn't happen or isn't real without coming off like an ass hole. As ImprobableJoe said, if you don't feel comfortable rebutting his account, then your best bet is to just not respond. There's no winning response to this kind of account, if your aim is to not cause him grief.

 

[theatheistguy]

This person is your friend, so I don't expect you to say this to him, but he has confused 'X is comforting' with; 'X is real'.

Marx's, "religion is the opiate of the masses" has many meanings, one applicable here is that although religion may make the pain go away, it does not solve the problem, take it away and it just gets a whole lot worse.

 

[Ozymandyus]

He's gone well beyond 'x is comforting so x is real'.... he believes he had an Actual Experience of this, not that it would be nice if he had such an experience. Someone that has had such an experience is impossible to argue against - the only thing you could question is his belief in whatever particular God he worships. You cannot disprove that he had such an experience and you should not try, if you care about the friendship.

 

[theatheistguy]

He's gone well beyond 'x is comforting so x is real'.... he believes he had an Actual Experience of this, not that it would be nice if he had such an experience. Someone that has had such an experience is impossible to argue against - the only thing you could question is his belief in whatever particular God he worships. You cannot disprove that he had such an experience and you should not try, if you care about the friendship.

Unless you ask him to be rational about it...the religious being rational...it could happen...right? :? Ask your friend to think about it from a god-free and critical perspective as if an outsider.

His daughter had just died after a long painful illness, he then had a dream relating to her which had the benefit of being very comforting to him, he then woke up (possibly), still being tired and emotional and experienced what appeared to be a continuation of the dream.

Now either everything we all know about the universe broke down in that moment just to comfort him rather than do something about the millions continuing to suffer and die every day, or, he was still dreaming or possibly imagined it. Which seems more likely?

 

[Ozymandyus]

being rational...it could happen...right? :? Ask your friend to think about it from a god-free and critical perspective as if an outsider.

His daughter had just died after a long painful illness, he then had a dream relating to her which had the benefit of being very comforting to him, he then woke up (possibly), still being tired and emotional and experienced what appeared to be a continuation of the dream.

Now either everything we all know about the universe broke down in that moment just to comfort him rather than do something about the millions continuing to suffer and die every day, or, he was still dreaming or possibly imagined it. Which seems more likely?

See, for these people its not everything we know about the universe being turned on its head or anything of that sort. The majority of the people they know believe the same thing. They know people that have these experiences too.

Asking them to think about it from a god-free and critical perspective is like seriously considering that we could all be brains in vats, or that our senses are all hallucinations sent by an evil God for them - sure, its POSSIBLE. But Why? They would think 'What good does it really do me to think that I may just be a brain in a vat, that the world I know isn't even real?' The only reaction you can expect from questioning a personal experience like this is rejection and anger.

Yes, we can explain it as something the human brain does to cope with things. Yes, it probably was a dream or something similar - but could it have been a dream sent by a being that cares about his pain? Sure - I can't reasonably deny this or disprove this. What's important is - does he believe he knows OTHER things about the world from this experience. Does he claim knowledge about homosexuals or condom efficacy because of this experience? Because his experience gave him no indication of this sort of thing.

 

[buzzausa]

You know, you're not required to debunk any of this. If it makes you feel uncomfortable, it is perfectly acceptable to let it go. I'm all for crushing asshole scumbag theists into the ground, but if you respect the guy and think you're going to do him some real and serious emotional harm, it is OK to just drop it completely, and move on.

I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[theatheistguy]

Asking them to think about it from a god-free and critical perspective is like seriously considering that we could all be brains in vats, or that our senses are all hallucinations sent by an evil God for them"

These things question a persons own existence, I'm only asking them to forget about something they have, could and will never experience.

The only reaction you can expect from questioning a personal experience like this is rejection and anger.

I don't think so, but I suppose it is possible, depending on the person, avoid southern and WB baptists.

Yes, we can explain it as something the human brain does to cope with things. Yes, it probably was a dream or something similar - but could it have been a dream sent by a being that cares about his pain? Sure - I can't reasonably deny this or disprove this.

I'm not asking you to prove or disprove anything, I do not need 100% proof either way to base my every day decisions upon, just which is more likely to be right, good, true. So which is more likely?

What's important is - does he believe he knows OTHER things about the world from this experience. Does he claim knowledge about homosexuals or condom efficacy because of this experience? Because his experience gave him no indication of this sort of thing.

Yes this experience did not tell him to stone homosexuals or beat his wife and children, but it may have pointed him in that direction.

 

[Ozymandyus]

These things question a persons own existence, I'm only asking them to forget about something they have, could and will never experience.

This is where you are exactly wrong: This guy DID experience something that he thought was God. They believe they can, will and HAVE experienced it. You are asking them to consider whether those experiences were just their minds fooling them, and every trusted authority they've ever known lying to them. It's a huge request that is exactly analogous to questioning your entire existence.

I'm not asking you to prove or disprove anything, I do not need 100% proof either way to base my every day decisions upon, just which is more likely to be right, good, true. So which is more likely?

So you see, what you are asking them here is: which is more likely, that your parents, pastor, thousands of years of believers and your own experience are lying to you, or that my opinion that your experience was a trick of the brain caused by you needing comforting in a time of hardship. It's not some simple request and the answer of which is more likely from their point of view is clear: God exists.

 

[theatheistguy]

This is where you are exactly wrong: This guy DID experience something that he thought was God. They believe they can, will and HAVE experienced it. You are asking them to consider whether those experiences were just their minds fooling them, and every trusted authority they've ever known lying to them. It's a huge request that is exactly analogous to questioning your entire existence.

Apologies, I could have made that a lot clearer . Of course he did experience something, I was meaning that he should look it from a god-free perspective, therefore asking him to forget about god, something that he has, could and will never experience (he claims to have seen angels not god and until he's dead he will won't find out if god exists). Also I'm not asking him to take on this view forever, just to think this way during his analysis of his experience.

So you see, what you are asking them here is: which is more likely, that your parents, pastor, thousands of years of believers and your own experience are lying to you, or that my opinion that your experience was a trick of the brain caused by you needing comforting in a time of hardship. It's not some simple request and the answer of which is more likely from their point of view is clear: God exists.

I never implied that anyone was lying to him (although that may be the case) nor did I imply that decision was whether or not god existed, I just asked which is more likely to have occurred, a trick of the mind or the supposed creator of the universe spending time on this one person's strife rather than doing something of much much greater good and worth.

 

[Th1sWasATriumph]

You know, you're not required to debunk any of this. If it makes you feel uncomfortable, it is perfectly acceptable to let it go. I'm all for crushing asshole scumbag theists into the ground, but if you respect the guy and think you're going to do him some real and serious emotional harm, it is OK to just drop it completely, and move on.

Aw Joe, you're so sweet with your facade of human emotions crusting an icy stone heart.

Actually I agree with you. As I've mentioned before, there's a reason I've never burst into the room of my friend's Muslim grandmother and demanded she explain herself. What is the reason? Does she carry a gun? Or is she old and quite frail and not a dick?