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misogyny/misandry/feminism/things that make your brain hurt

N

Nom_de_Plume

New Member
arg-fallbackName="Nom_de_Plume"/>
Ok all, I know this can be a really dodgy subject. My own little CFI group here in my home town went nuclear over this particular subject over the weekend so...
here's a link to get the mayhem rolling.
http://mattgemmell.com/2012/04/20/misogyny/
and a quote from the article
Sexism and misogyny have always been with us. We have always sought to control women, to limit their liberties, and even in more enlightened societies to reinforce certain double-standards in terms of how we expect women to behave.
Click to expand...
 
arg-fallbackName="CommonEnlightenment"/>
Re: misogyny/misandry/feminism/things that make your brain h

Well the fact of the matter is that for some woman that can actually apply and be true. Here is the difference and a very fine line IMHO:

A couple of scenarios:

1. I would NOT use this information as a qualifying test when deciding on electing a female to a political position based on #33.
2. I would use this information for understanding and possibly trying to help females lessen the symptoms of PMS. As some females DO IN FACT feel the hormonal differences more than other females. And from my understanding when some woman use the 'pill' it can actually lessen some of the more serious symptoms of PMS.

If you call either of these points as misogynic then I think we really need to discuss what we allow to pass as misogyny in society.
 
arg-fallbackName="Nom_de_Plume"/>
Re: misogyny/misandry/feminism/things that make your brain h

CommonEnlightenment said:
Well the fact of the matter is that for some woman that can actually apply and be true. Here is the difference and a very fine line IMHO:

A couple of scenarios:

1. I would NOT use this information as a qualifying test when deciding on electing a female to a political position based on #33.
2. I would use this information for understanding and possibly trying to help females lessen the symptoms of PMS. As some females DO IN FACT feel the hormonal differences more than other females.

If you call either of these points as misogynic then I think we really need to discuss what we allow to pass as misogyny in society.
Click to expand...

No I think we can leave medical conditions out of this discussion.
Yes, there are a few women who do suffer from drastic PMS but this is actually a very small % of women actually have that "crazy pms thing".
I am aware if you google (premenstrual syndrome) you'll find all sorts of sites that say that 85% of mensurating women have PMS. (supporting link)
The issue with this statistic is there are a whole lot of symptoms of normal female ovulation cycle and having even one of them gets one lumped into the PMS category.
So now that this issue is out of the way. The discussion can ensue.
 
arg-fallbackName="Isotelus"/>
Re: misogyny/misandry/feminism/things that make your brain h

Nom_de_Plume said:
And seeing as I have this thread all to my self for nowI'm gonna post this as well.
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/
This one has always ticked me off
33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I also find this very annoying. In my experience, most guys (and girls sometimes) will bring it up jokingly; However, nothing makes your day like having someone tell you "it must be that special time!" just because you were in a bit of a bad mood (which is even more annoying when it has nothing to do with hormones). Thanks, you've made everything so much better! :facepalm:

In regards to the other articles, the most frequent annoyance I have experienced is the "mansplanations".
 
arg-fallbackName="WarK"/>
Re: misogyny/misandry/feminism/things that make your brain h

Nom_de_Plume said:
Oh I just found this.....
VERY interesting
This person discovered (aside from the fact that reddit is full of douchebags) That they were treated differently if people thought the user was female vs male.
http://manboobz.com/2012/04/22/a-li...t-confirms-that-reddit-is-full-of-douchebags/
Click to expand...

I noticed a lot of questionable comments on reddit. I've only used it for few weeks. It's sad. And those bastards downvoted my links!
 
arg-fallbackName="Nom_de_Plume"/>
Re: misogyny/misandry/feminism/things that make your brain h

Ya, I've never spent anytime on Reddit.
But I thought the it was an interesting experiment none the less.
I know for me, about 50% of my careers have been in mostly male dominated industries. As a female, I've noticed I have to work harder and be better to get granted the same professional respect as my male counterparts. (thankfully, I'm fucking awesome and I have no problem rising above)
I think that the whole equal rights thing still has a very long way to go.
We still have this whole issue of physical differences that make it physically apparent that we aren't exactly equal.
Women are not built with the same musculature as men, we're never going to be able to compete physically as equals (with a few exceptions)
So I can totally understand, looking at it from a male perspective, would you grant the same respect to a man if you were physically bigger/stronger/faster than him?

I think the only equality that women have an ability to claim is intellectual.
But, still society has a long way to go in allowing women to be raised in a manner where they are taught right from childhood that they are just as smart.
In my generation, that wasn't the case, in my daughters' it seemed to get a bit better, so we'll see what happens in the future.
 
arg-fallbackName="Nom_de_Plume"/>
Re: misogyny/misandry/feminism/things that make your brain h

I've said all along that pro-lifers are woman haters, but George Carlin said it all better than I ever could.

 
arg-fallbackName="Gnug215"/>
Re: misogyny/misandry/feminism/things that make your brain h

Nom_de_Plume said:
Oh I just found this.....
VERY interesting
This person discovered (aside from the fact that reddit is full of douchebags) That they were treated differently if people thought the user was female vs male.
http://manboobz.com/2012/04/22/a-li...t-confirms-that-reddit-is-full-of-douchebags/
Click to expand...


Oh god... as it isn't horrible enough to read all those quotes from people who tried changing their nicks, the real face-kicker comes from that Men's Rights ass at the end.

Sometimes you feel really bad about being male...

But St. George to the rescue! :)
 
arg-fallbackName="Nom_de_Plume"/>
Re: misogyny/misandry/feminism/things that make your brain h

Gnug215 said:
Oh god... as it isn't horrible enough to read all those quotes from people who tried changing their nicks, the real face-kicker comes from that Men's Rights ass at the end.

Sometimes you feel really bad about being male...

But St. George to the rescue! :)
Click to expand...

I've been really lucky actually, aside from a few small bumps at the very beginning of my "male oriented" careers I don't find people ever seem to treat me as substandard in IRL or on the internet.
That doesn't mean they're not rolling their eyes at my posts, but really there is nothing I can do about that.
I've always just been me online, I don't have the energy to try to be anyone else and remember all the details that go along with having a different persona.
But I do tend to keep to smaller (privately run/moderated) forums as well, and research (lurk) quite heavily prior to creating an account.
I enjoy that feeling of camaraderie that can only be found in a smaller, more intimate setting with a group of people who have an interest in expressing their thoughts and ideas in an environment that stimulates thought and dialogue.
 
arg-fallbackName="HomoCognitus"/>
Re: misogyny/misandry/feminism/things that make your brain h

Some interesting observations without much clarification (too lazy for now :oops: )

- When you, as a strong and respected male person, tell other males off for specific sexist behaviour (namecalling, female treatment) two things will happen:
1. you immediately get a +100 on the respect scale. Instantly. You should see the other males falling over each other trying to assure YOU they mean well with women. It's pathetic, really.
2. they will never EVER say shit like that again if they think you can hear them.

This has led me to the conclusion this is a MALE problem that needs to be solved by MALES. Not being sexist here, just being practical ;)
The problem here is that most masculine man come to their masculinity through other males. In my case it was through contact with women and (needing to) figuring out what THEY perceived as masculinity. I can now see where males cross the line and am not afraid for my own masculinity to say something about it. I also see that, even if other males see the conversation goes south, they ARE too afraid for their own masculinity to say something about it.

So, IMHO, what's needed is a clear and vocal STFU from other males. Don't think agreeing with the joke, of even taking it a step further, gets you any browny points. Going against the grain and saying what most other males only dare to think in such a situation will get you all the respect you wanted to have in the first place. :D

- With real bigots it helps to know a little biology and history and economics..
> history: the Celts, before St.Patricks dirty little trick, had a very feminine friendly culture. And, contrary of what the Romans had to say about them, they were a flourishing nation stretching all the way from the west of Ireland to eastern Europe. This tells us that a stronger role for females in society isn't a bad thing..
> economics: one of the most efficient ways of dealing with poverty in 3d world countries? Investing in FEMALES to start their own little businesses. There is little to no drop-out when done this way.. when lending MALES the money, the drop out rate is pretty high. This tells us that a stronger role for women in economics isn't a bad thing...
> biology. The angler fish. http://theoatmeal.com/comics/angler watch the comic. Laugh your face off. Then realize he isn't messing with you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglerfish#Reproduction. This tells us EXACTLY what the role of males is in the greater scheme of things. And why it is so essential for a lot of males to think THEY are important.

-Next to our role, as males, to tell off other males, I think it also helps to poke and prod women who need poking and prodding. Tell your co-worker how insane it is that you earn more then her in the same role. Stand up for her when she does have the courage to go and ask for more. If you see a woman mistreated by a man, first tell the guy off for it, then tell her she doesn't need to take these things in stride and how it is her full right to smack the dude, preferably in public with the dude still there. When you hear from your female friends they got mistreated somewhere, tell them the story of the angler-fish and how the perpetrator is afraid of being only a nutsack.
There are plenty examples here where a little force, more then comfort, really do work..


-Great thing is: this IS one of those areas where you can make a BIG difference with minimal action.
 
arg-fallbackName="DepricatedZero"/>
Re: misogyny/misandry/feminism/things that make your brain h

This entire subject is blinded by European ethnocentrism. Existing European societies were all influenced by the Abrahamic Doctrine of Hate which does indeed seek to control women. However, there are societies still around today (the San, the Huli, for example) who are largely unaffected by eurocentric points of view, where women share roles that Europeans traditionally see as "mens work" and vice versa.

I don't have any ethnographies on hand, I can dig some out later though, if people are interested in exploring that avenue of discussion. I'm heading out for a bit or I'd dig some out now. Let me know.
 
arg-fallbackName="Gnug215"/>
Re: misogyny/misandry/feminism/things that make your brain h

HomoCognitus said:
Some interesting observations without much clarification (too lazy for now :oops: )

- When you, as a strong and respected male person, tell other males off for specific sexist behaviour (namecalling, female treatment) two things will happen:
1. you immediately get a +100 on the respect scale. Instantly. You should see the other males falling over each other trying to assure YOU they mean well with women. It's pathetic, really.
2. they will never EVER say shit like that again if they think you can hear them.

This has led me to the conclusion this is a MALE problem that needs to be solved by MALES. Not being sexist here, just being practical ;)
The problem here is that most masculine man come to their masculinity through other males. In my case it was through contact with women and (needing to) figuring out what THEY perceived as masculinity. I can now see where males cross the line and am not afraid for my own masculinity to say something about it. I also see that, even if other males see the conversation goes south, they ARE too afraid for their own masculinity to say something about it.

So, IMHO, what's needed is a clear and vocal STFU from other males. Don't think agreeing with the joke, of even taking it a step further, gets you any browny points. Going against the grain and saying what most other males only dare to think in such a situation will get you all the respect you wanted to have in the first place. :D
Click to expand...

Hi HomoCog, and welcome to LoR!

I'd just like to say that I agree with you that males need to solve this - or more precicesly, that most of the problem LIES with males. (I only say "most" because it seems that some women have more or less been brainwashed into a role of submission and inferiority, which is understandable after so many centuries of social pressure/structure, but that's an aside, really.)

I do, however, disagree that the solution is as simple as you demonstrate in that two-point demonstration. Among other due to dogma (mostly religious), and also these various newfangled (and seemingly mostly misguided) Men's Rights Movements.
Not to say that what you line up there shouldn't be practiced. But some of this stuff will just have to be... out-grown.

If you haven't already, I think you should take a look at the TED Talk that was linked to (by Nommy) earlier, with Tony Porter.

TED talk: Tony Porter - A Call to men!
http://www.ted.com/talks/tony_porter_a_call_to_men.html

I found it very enjoyable.

Again, welcome, and I hope you enjoy your stay here! :)
 
arg-fallbackName="ImprobableJoe"/>
Re: misogyny/misandry/feminism/things that make your brain h

HomoCognitus said:
This has led me to the conclusion this is a MALE problem that needs to be solved by MALES. Not being sexist here, just being practical ;)
Click to expand...

... all of which is true to a point, and good up to a point. Right up to the point where you've hijacked women's issues and shoved women out of the lead role in their own struggles. One of the biggest problems with the people with privilege helping end the privilege is that they tend to thoughtlessly exert their privilege even when they are trying to be helpful. It is an unfortunate truth that when men start out saying "let me help you" it often turns into or at least comes off as "step aside and let me show you how to do it."

So yeah, men have a responsibility to shout down other men who start behaving poorly, but be careful to avoid confusing your ability to be of help with any sort of special insight to start telling women how they should behave, or to believe that sexism is ultimately YOUR issue and take away from the fact that it is actually about women.
 
arg-fallbackName="Nom_de_Plume"/>
Re: misogyny/misandry/feminism/things that make your brain h

Today while women in the USA were having marches and rallies all across the states today
http://unitewomen.org/unite/
UniteWomen.org strongly supports diversity and welcomes men and women of all ages without regard to their race, color, creed, political affiliation, disability, religious or spiritual beliefs, sexual orientation, gender identity, education or income level, marital status, employment status, or immigrant status. Everyone is invited to join, plan, and rally as we unite to demand that every person be granted equal opportunities, equal rights, and equal representation.
Click to expand...


Here in Western Canada
The IRP of BC.......At a regular meeting today the party's Board of Directors passed a motion on abortion as follows:
"The Individual Rights Party believes abortion should be illegal in Canada, except in cases where the life of the mother is in danger, or where there is scientific agreement the foetus is non-viable."
This is their new updated mandate
http://individualrightsparty.ca/wordpress/?page_id=207
The only problem I have with this group is that they have some severe political clout here in my province.
Oh I should add* this replaces their former policy that accepted a woman's right to choose up to the 20th week.
 
arg-fallbackName="Nom_de_Plume"/>
Re: misogyny/misandry/feminism/things that make your brain h

Ok, so I don't think we're giving mens issues enough equal time on here...
so far (and that's probably my fault) it's all been about misogyny and female rights etc. But I did intend this to be about everyone, hence the title.

In some strong feminist camps there are groups of women who really really hate men and are quite vocal about it.
Here is another forum with quite the collection of man bashing quotes http://antimisandry.com/feminist-misandry/feminist-quotes-20106.html#axzz1tRH7l844

On another thread here on LOR (which I'm almost thinking we should merge because its very similar)
Visaki mentioned the rights of men to defend themselves against a female aggressor.
This is an area where men get the short end of the stick..... examples = Guilty until proven innocent in assault charges, rarely granted custody of offspring during a marriage meltdown, the list goes on.

If women truly want equal political and social rights with men then we can't pull out the victim (poor little me) card to manipulate a situation to our advantage.
Equal rights means equal, just because someone wants equal rights for women that doesn't necessarily mean that men lose theirs.
I feel we can have both.
 
arg-fallbackName="ImprobableJoe"/>
Re: misogyny/misandry/feminism/things that make your brain h

I don't buy that men have problems that particularly need to be addressed in order for feminism to be valid.
 
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