Miracles!

[Doc.]

hello guys, I've just had a kind of a debate with hardcore Christian through Internet. the history of how we got there is kind of interesting but let's just skip it, all you need to know is that she has never heard that there are people out there (well she did, but she didn't believe it i guess) that don't believe in god or soul or any of that crap. After a minute she started convincing me with miracles. she said that her father was diagnosed with lupus and doctors said that he would live for max 3 months and after 12 years he is still alive. and that some guy could see again after he prayed...

Needless to explain how irritating this is, I hate explaining the statistics and probability of human errors. in the end she said that she had to go and told me that she would pray to god so he would enlighten my mind. I naturally answered that it's just me and her and it's up to her to prove her beliefs to me. all she said in response was that she would convince me with the great miracles that god did for humanity.

Normally I wouldn't waste my time but I kind of want to have a go with this one. so what's your usual response when somebody starts talking about miracles?

edit:fix.

 

[Shaedys]

Fuckin magnets, how do they work?

 

[RigelKentaurusA]

I'd just tell her about the statistics.

At what odds does a statistically improbable event require a miracle? 1 in 100? 1 in 100,000? 1 in 100,000,000,000,000?
Does winning the lottery count as a miracle?

 

[Commander Eagle]

so what's your usual response when somebody starts talking about miracles?

Explain why you don't accept her anecdotes as evidence and ask for documentation of her claims.

 

[Aught3]

How come the definition of miracle is always 'bad shit happened but not quite as bad as it could have been'?

 

[sgrunterundt]

Qualia Soup and Theramin Trees has a couple of good videos on this topic. I'd find a good one and embed it, but I have to go now.

 

[Doc.]

I think I've seen those, but I really doubt she can speak English.

 

[FaithlessThinker]

I myself have a hard time dealing with what I'd call "direct anecdotal supernatural stuff". That means the person making the claim directly had some sort of experience that he or she thinks justifies the claim. The indirect version would be another person hears the story from the first and relays it.

The question you're most likely asked when criticizing direct anecdotal supernatural stuff will be: "So how do you explain the fact that I -insert experience here-?"

My wife has claimed that she can cast spells such as a "kissing spell" that would make someone want to kiss her, and she actually tested it out. She has also claimed to have seen people being possessed (by spirits or so). When she makes claims for such and I give her the critical look, she will ask me "How do you explain what I experienced?"

I had tried to tell her that I have neither a direct experience of the event, nor any extensive documentation of it such as clear videos. Without all such, I can only speculate what might be the natural explanation for the event. I also tried to talk to her about Occam's Razor, that is to take the explanation with the least assumptions. I'm not sure if she understands what I'm trying to say at all, because even though she nods her head to what I told her, she continues to believe these events to have been caused by supernatural effects.

Now I just don't bother about it. I just listen and then forget about it. Sometimes, silence can be the best defense against a religious offense.

 

[lrkun]

hello guys, I've just had a kind of a debate with hardcore Christian through Internet. the history of how we got there is kind of interesting but let's just skip it, all you need to know is that she has never heard that there are people out there (well she did, but she didn't believe it i guess) that don't believe in god or soul or any of that crap. After a minute she started convincing me with miracles. she said that her father was diagnosed with lupus and doctors said that he would live for max 3 months and after 12 years he is still alive. and that some guy could see again after he prayed...

Needless to explain how irritating this is, I hate explaining the statistics and probability of human errors. in the end she said that she had to go and told me that she would pray to god so he would enlighten my mind. I naturally answered that it's just me and her and it's up to her to prove her beliefs to me. all she said in response was that she would convince me with the great miracles that god did for humanity.

Normally I wouldn't waste my time but I kind of want to have a go with this one. so what's your usual response when somebody starts talking about miracles?

edit:fix.

My response is: so that's how you define a miracle. Hmmm... mysterious. Now, if I'm irritated, then I'd say: No shit? But, if I'm feeling mean, then I'd say: No.

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

You could start by telling her that if the Church hasn't declared it a miracle, it's unlikely to be one.

Then, you can start analysing it from there by getting her to provide cited sources and looking for a naturalistic explanation.

Kindest regards,

James

 

[Balstrome]

My beef with miracles is how do they happen. You know the whole "What type of energy was used in what focus for how long at what intensity" type of thing. It's because they do not understand how reality works, ie science, that they feel the need to make stuff up.

 

[Laurens]

Hume's argument against miracles is pretty much irrefutable:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hume#Problem_of_miracles
http://www.bartleby.com/37/3/14.html

 

[FaithlessThinker]

"Hume notes that miracles seem to occur mostly in "ignorant" and "barbarous" nations and times, and the reason they don't occur in the "civilized" societies is such societies aren't awed by what they know to be natural events."

Always, always true.

 

[Squawk]

While god was sorting out that lupus, x number of children died due to lack of clean water every minute.

Or just link to a photo of an isopod in a fish. Isn't nature beautiful

 

[Vanlavak]

There are two ways to live: you can live as if nothing is a miracle; you can live as if everything is a miracle.

I've seen prophesy in person. I've heard of people who can see the energy field around people, objects, and animals and interpret it based off of the colors of that field (aura).
I believe strongly in Chinese theology when it comes to the miracle business. The Chinese took it as a science and actually perform things that could be considered miraculous in western society but is a science for them.
This includes:
Herb healing
Using chi to balance the energy of the body (Chi)
Acupuncture

For more on traditional Chinese medicine see

 

[Aught3]

Acupuncture

 

[Squawk]

More on acupuncture
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/04/sham_acupuncture_is_better_than_true_acu.php
The paper

One point to make, the effect would appear to be entirely placebo, the the interesting thing is that it's a very effective placebo. I can't find many (actually any) studies where a placebo effect is not found. The question is, is it worth funding a placebo that works (if you'll pardon the expression).

##edit
Scrap that, why not fund the non-invasive sham acupuncture that shows the same effect.

 

[Laurens]

There are two ways to live: you can live as if nothing is a miracle; you can live as if everything is a miracle.

I've seen prophesy in person. I've heard of people who can see the energy field around people, objects, and animals and interpret it based off of the colors of that field (aura).

I would like to hear more about the specifics of this 'prophecy'.

If I stare at something long enough I can see what looks like an 'aura' around it, I think it's just something our eyes do. It could also be synaesthesia.

I believe strongly in Chinese theology when it comes to the miracle business. The Chinese took it as a science and actually perform things that could be considered miraculous in western society but is a science for them.
This includes:
Herb healing
Using chi to balance the energy of the body (Chi)
Acupuncture

For more on traditional Chinese medicine see

Herb healing - well if a herb has medicinal properties it can be considered medicine, if not then it isn't.

Here's Brian Dunning of Skeptoid on Chinese Medicine: http://hw.libsyn.com/p/a/d/3/ad31a75e820806ad/skeptoid-4259.mp3?sid=91311b63da9a84a75278b0bf8f78df89&l_sid=17974&l_eid=&l_mid=2585333

Auras: http://hw.libsyn.com/p/d/3/9/d3979ec3dd386975/skeptoid-4075.mp3?sid=da5bd66745ad10a9bc4953a4d0122def&l_sid=17974&l_eid=&l_mid=1406412

He's done one on chi and other martial arts myths as well but the link isn't working, here's the transcript: http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4189

 

[Pulsar]

I've heard of people who can see the energy field around people, objects, and animals and interpret it based off of the colors of that field (aura).

Yeah, I've heard of those people too. They're called crackpots and charlatans.

I believe strongly in Chinese theology when it comes to the miracle business. The Chinese took it as a science and actually perform things that could be considered miraculous in western society but is a science for them.
This includes:
Herb healing
Using chi to balance the energy of the body (Chi)
Acupuncture

To quote Dara O'Briain:

"I'm sorry, 'herbal medicine', 'Oh, herbal medicine's been around for thousands of years!' Indeed it has, and then we tested it all, and the stuff that worked became 'medicine', and the rest of it is just a nice bowl of soup and some potpourri, so knock yourselves out.

"Chinese medicine, oh, Chinese medicine! 'But there are billions of Chinese, Chinese medicine must be working.' Here's the skinny on Chinese medicine. A hundred years ago the average life expectancy in China was 30. The life expectancy in China at the moment is 73. And it's not feckin' tiger penis that turned it around for the Chinese."

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Miracles? Not so much. Never been showed to happen. Ever.

It is a shame too. If you've ever seen Harry Potter movies, that's what a world with miracles might look like. The world DOESN'T look like that, so no magic for you! :lol:

Also, why doesn't 'God' heal amputees? I know it is the standard question, but it holds.