Message with a Christian (UPDATED!)

[lordhathor]

Hey guys, I just thought I'd share my little exchange with this fella on youtube. I intend to make a video about it tonight, but I'm at work at the moment so let me know if you have any suggestions.

Here's his message to me, followed by my response.

Hi,

I saw several of your videos concerning Christianity and the existence of God. In some you sound like an intelligent and reasonable person but in others not so much.

You may think you know everything but don't and neither does science. Have you ever consider the possibility that you may be wrong? So for your own sake and the sake of the people you may be driving away from God, please think twice before you make another video to make fun of God.

My reply:

I don't claim to know everything. Neither does science.
But let me make something deadly clear to you.

Not knowing the cause of something doesn't mean god did it.
Have you ever considered the possibility that YOU may be wrong?
Pascal's Wager, right?
Here's the problem with that.

/Yeah/, if I'm wrong, then I lived happily for one lifetime, but will suffer for eternity.
However, if you're wrong, you'll have wasted the _ONLY_ life you get.

But here's the problem with the whole idea. You're assuming that the only 2 possibilities are:
A: There is a god
B: There is no god.

Well you're kind of right, except that in most religions, simply believing in "god' doesn't cut it! You have to believe in THEIR god!
And there are THOUSANDS of religions, and HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of different gods!
Probably more!

So, what seems more likely?

1: God A
2: Gob B
3: God C
4: God D
5: God E
(and so on....)
203,764,901: No god at all

We could pick a god at random (since there's really very little distinguishing most of them from one another, and we wouldn't know what to look for in a true god anyway), but then we would have a 99.99999% chance of wasting the ONE CHANCE we'll ever have to live the way we want.
(whether there's a god who'll punish us afterward, or no god at all, this time we get on earth is the only time we're free to choose how we live, and whether we're having a good life or a boring one, lived for someone else who may or may not exist)

So the question becomes, how do we determine whether something is true or false?
Well, that seems simple. When someone makes a claim in the positive...
(ie- "Bigfoot is real", "I saw the Loch Mess Monster", "I was abducted by Aliens", "God healed my wart")...
the thing that we look for is whether or not there is evidence for their claim. When there IS evidence (such as VIDEOS of Bigfoot, Nessie, /AND/ alien spacecraft), we COMPARE that evidence to demonstrable reality, and see if there is enough of it, or if it's persuasive enough to show that there's really a good chance of this thing existing/happening.

In the case of god, someone saying to me "I was in a car accident, and I'm not dead, so god saved me, therefore god is real" is not persuasive. How does that person know god saved them? How do they know WHICH god saved them? What made them special enough to BE saved? and so on...

Finally, as for this business of essentially threatening me with hell in order to scare me off YouTube - Go fuck yourself.

As always, I welcome you to have an open debate with me, and just so you know, I will be making a video about our little exchange here, so if you refuse to debate me and continue to make ridiculous and faulty claims, you will look like a giant retarded vagina.

Thanks, and have a stupendous day.

 

[irmerk]

Re: Message with a Christian

Towards the end where you talk about the car accident, you should mention the blind studies conducted on prayer and belief in a deity resulting in an illusion when contrasted with those who did not and do not.

Nonetheless, that was an epic bitch slap to the fucker.

 

[Gnug215]

Re: Message with a Christian

Hey,

I like most of it, but I think the harsh tone at the end is a bit much.

It just gives him an "excuse" to call you immature, hateful, whatever, and he'll be able to cop out with that. Christians do that a lot, and in their little lala-land it makes good sense.

But that makes this kind of pwnage mostly just a matter of preaching to the choir. If that's the intent, then it's quite good.

Additionally, I have another angle on Pascal's Wager, if you're interested. (I'll just pretend you are...)

I made a video about it, but the gist of it is that by making the choice to be safe rather than right, then you're essentially a coward - and I went so far as to compare that kind of cowardice to the people that just ran along with the Nazi's back in the day, choosing to be safe rather than being right.

 

[JerseyDagmar]

Re: Message with a Christian

lol, totally awesome. As for the harsh tone at the end, it was justified. The douche was telling you not to make fun of god, assuming you believed in said god. HA! Christians are so funny.

 

[lordhathor]

Re: Message with a Christian

His reply to me:

Yes, I have considered the possibility that I may be wrong, however the evidence in the physical world beg to differ.

God exists not because I have no explanation for some things but because I know the cause. I am not going to tell you that science is wrong, on the contrary science is always wright. People who interpret it however, can be wrong.

Are you afraid of wasting the only life you may have or afraid of being responsible to someone?

There are many religions and many gods but only one in the true God. How do we know who the real God is? I claim it is the Judeo-Christian God and the Bible is the ultimate evidence for that. I will be glad to defend my claim shall you decide to argue further.

You logic is perfectly reasonable when it comes to proving the existence of the Bigfoot or Nessie, but how can you apply the same logic to a Being that is has no physical or spatial features. As human we our minds and senses are limited to the physical world and there is no way for us to know what or who is beyond it.

I am not trying to threaten you with hell (haha). As an atheist you obviously do not believe in God and therefore in hell, so trying to scare you is the last on my mind. I believe that such debated are very healthy and will help people to make an informed decision.

Feel free to make as many videos as you like. I will continue to make claims and you have yet to prove that they are ridiculous and faulty.

You have a great day too!

My reply to THAT:

---Yes, I have considered the possibility that I may be wrong, however the evidence in the physical world beg to differ.
Okay, go ahead and present your evidence so that I can show you what a bafoon you are for believing it without doing any of your own research. Or you could simply engage me in a debate, and I would gladly hear your evidence there as well.

---God exists not because I have no explanation for some things but because I know the cause.
A man sitting in an insane asylum KNOWS there are gnomes in his underpants. Just like you "know" the cause. There is no demonstrable evidence for either claim, and so we dismiss them both as ridiculous.

---People who interpret it (science) however, can be wrong.
As can the people who interperet the bible. None of this has any bearing on the validity of science, which DIRECTLY, DEMONSTRABLY, VERIFIABLY contradicts many claims in the bible. HUNDREDS of claims in the bible.

---I claim it is the Judeo-Christian God and the Bible is the ultimate evidence for that.
The bible is the claim. The claim can not be proof of itself. Even if that weren't a logical fallacy, your claim still means nothing. How EXACTLY does the bible "prove itself"? There's nothing special about your bible - in fact, it's practically a carbon copy (with a few annotations) of the teachings of half the major ancient gods from Egypt, Greece, the myans, and tons more.
Where is your evidence?

---how can you apply the same logic to a Being that is has no physical or spatial features.

You just claimed science proved the existence of god, we were just interpereting it wrong. How can science prove god if he has no physical or spatial features?
Aside from your claim being contradicted by your own bible, if god is truly omnipotent, surely he could simply appear to us unless he wishes to make the universe APPEAR as if he doesn't exist, and APPEAR as if there is very likely a natural explanation for every natural phenomena.

---As human we our minds and senses are limited to the physical world and there is no way for us to know what or who is beyond it.
Do you see the irony here?
First you claim to KNOW that there is a god, and that further more, he is the christian god, and that further more, you know what he wants you to do and how he wants you to live your life.
Then, in the same breath, you tell me that none of us, as humans, can possibly know anything about god or even WHAT he is.
Do you see how dumb that sounds?

---I believe that such debated are very healthy and will help people to make an informed decision.

Then engage me in a public debate, and we'll see who is correct, eh?

---you have yet to prove that they are ridiculous and faulty.
I am made of broccoli.
You have yet to prove that my claim is ridiculous or faulty.


See, that's not how the world works. That's not how science works.
You don't automatically believe everything a person says until you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are wrong.
You don't believe everything written in a book until it's proven to be false.
You believe only that for which there is sufficient evidence. That is how we are able to make informed decisions. That is how society progresses, and people like you slowly get weeded out from the populus. That is why atheism is on the rise. People are beginning to wake up, and think for themselves.
I'm sorry you're behind the curve.

 

[Aught3]

Re: Message with a Christian

:lol: That point you made about knowing the unknowable god was perfect!

 

[stefzula]

Re: Message with a Christian

ROFL @ "Are you afraid of wasting the only life you may have or afraid of being responsible to someone?"

There's so much irony in that statement, it burns! It's hilarious how Christians love to tell atheists that the only reason they don't believe in God is because they don't want to held "accountable" for their actions, yet they themselves believe that they won't be held responsible for their actions if they just "put their faith in Jesus Christ" to forgive their "sins."

Oh, the irony!

 

[Canto]

Re: Message with a Christian

I was actually thinking about somthing along those lines today Stef. Belief in God absolves you of responsibility for yourself and your actions. Belief in "end times" and an afterlife absolve you from responsibility to the here and now. Every time I hear a religious person say that Atheists just do not want to be responsible to God I have to cringe. Coming from a religion where what you do is tertiary to Faith/Belief and asking a zombie to come into your heart. The statement has no power and makes no sense.

If you do not believe in a God that guides your life and will make everything better for you in the end, the person you are responsible to is yourself and to society on the whole. Strong moral character is not a defining trait of the religious. But we all know that, we just have to convince those who dont.

 

[Daealis]

Re: Message with a Christian

By the time you pulled the underpants-gnomes argument, I was sold. This is gold. Can't wait for the next post, if your opponent ever dares to make one again.

 

[DarwinsOtherTheory]

Re: Message with a Christian

more please

 

[Lunar Sonata]

Re: Message with a Christian

"I am made of broccoli."

WIN

 

[Otokogoroshi]

Re: Message with a Christian

While I find it entertaining I always prefer to take the high road and kill them with kindness. That way when they get snippy you can act hurt and they'll feel bad!


Kidding! That's just one of the benefits of being nice I understand why not everyone coddles these folks, I just try to avoid telling people they're outright stupid, however that doesn't stop me from pointing out the flaws in their logic.... in a very nice way!


I hope he writes back.

 

[digitalbuddha48]

Re: Message with a Christian

more please

Yus! More please, this is a great read.

 

[lordhathor]

Re: Message with a Christian

Unfortunately, he hasn't responded. :<
Here's another topic of interest though, in which I have been partaking.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=17367809378&sid=1&pageNo=1

 

[lordhathor]

Re: Message with a Christian

FINALLY! A RESPONSE!

>>>If you wanted this argument to continue you would have responded directly to my YouTube account instead of posting to some forum I have no knowledge of.

>>>I should also say that calling your opponent names with the intend to offend him/her does not make your arguments any better.

I did respond to you directly. You never replied. It was only 24 hours after my last response that I posted the forum post. I still have the message in my sent folder to prove it.
I also am aware that calling people names doesn't make my arguments any better. However, calling an idiot an idiot isn't out of the question.


>>>Here is some evidence for you.
>>>The Bible claims that the earth is around 6000 years old.Examination of fossil fuels like oil and natural gas presents evidence in support that the Earth is young.
Modern Science tells us that oil formed some 50-250 million years ogo. Oil is usually found 4-6 km (Wikipedia) deep under big pressure. Taking into account hydraulic conductivity of rocks, permeability and pressure one can conclude that it would take only about 20 000 years for the oil to reach the surface of the Earth. Some time ago I took the liberty of making some calculation myself (I was very flexible in making those calculation). Afterward I doubled my answer and got 150 000 years which is nowhere near 50 million. How do you explain that?

How do I explain that? simple. You're not a scientist. Here's a tip for you: When you think you have irrefutable proof that all of science has been turned on its' head and that everything we know about archaeology and the fossil records and geological findings has been disproven by your high-school math, go ahead and submit to to a scientific journal. Give it a few months and you'll be the proud owner of a Nobel Prize.
I'd also like to point out that 150,000 years is not the same as 6,000 years. You're off by a factor of 25.
(One more thing - Fossil fuels couldn't even have formed naturally in that amount of time. You need to re-think your arguments.)



>>>Prior to the mission to the moon scientist were conserned (sic) with the amount of cosmic dist that may have accumulated over a period of 4.5 billion years. Based on the amount of dust that falls on the moon per year scientist estimated a dust layer of around 50 feet and some even up to 180 feet covering the moon. As we all know today the Apollo 11 expedition found LESS THAN 1 INCH of cosmic dust.
>>>So there goes your 4.5billon years and there goes your precious theory of evolution. How is this for evidence?

How is that for evidence? well, not very good I'm afraid. First of all, cosmic dust on the moon has about as much to do with evolution as the dust on my computer monitor has to do with the functionality of my television.

I just want you to understand where this argument of yours is coming from.
This argument was originally made by a guy named Henry Morris, in 1974 in his book, "Scientific Creationism". It has never been made or accepted by any legitimate scientist as far as I've been able to research.
The measurements Morris used to calculate the approximate amount of dust which should collect on the moon/earth, were based on dust collected from within the atmosphere of the earth. This measurement was admittedly, openly contaminated by dust from the earth, by an insane order of magnitude.
"More recent measurements of cosmic dust influx measured from satellites give an influx rate about 1 percent as large, corresponding to a layer 66 cm thick at most over 4.5 billion years (Kyte and Wasson 1986). An even more recent study of iridium and platinum in a Greenland ice core yields an estimate of only about 14 kilotons per year of meteoric dust during the Holocene, compared with the figure of 14 million tons per year that Morris used (Gabrielli et al. 2004). "

I counted at least 4 different ways in which you were wrong with just that one argument. I don't even see the point in continuing since you're obviously not going to learn anything,


>>>Where is your evidence that the Bible is a copy? How do you know that half of the major ancient teaching are not taken from the Bible?


Where is my evidence? Well, in the teachings themselves. The myths of Thor, Zeus, Mythra, Ra, Set, Horus, and so on, and so on, and even a guy named "Appalonius (Christ) or Thaine (sp?)" Most of whom, including appalonius, were born on the winter solstice like jesus, with a star in the east, 3 kings bearing gifts, virgin birth, 12 disciples, began ministry at 30 or so, many were even crucified or otherwise killed, then were dead for 3 days, and resurrected. Appeared to 3 women upon resurrection, then physically ascended into heaven.
Christmas tree? Pagan ritual. Crucifix? Pagan symbol. Ten commandments? STAIGHT from the book of the dead. The list goes on.
Even the original proselytizers themselves were aware of this. They said: "Accept this in common with what you believe of the sons of jupiter!" but their explanation? The devil went back in time, and made it SEEM like jesus was a copy of a copy of a copy and so was the bible. Guess what. That's the catholic church's explanation TO THIS DAY. Did you know that?



>>>Science cannot prove or disprove the existence of God in a direct way. God however made many claims in the Bible which we can examine and put to a test.

Like when it's said that if you have the faith of a mustard seed, you can move mountains? That if you pray, god will answer? That you can do anything, through prayer? That's a claim we can examine.
another claim we can examine is that the earth is immovable, the sun revolves around it, and the blue sky is made of water and can be opened up to allow that water to flood the earth. Another claim we can look at is the claim that when Jesus rose from the dead, the dead in that town rose from their graves and walked around town.
Zombies, mate.
Zombies in the bible.
And in case you're wondering... no. No historian happened to mention the zombies. Tough luck, right?


>>>I guess he could appear to us, but would leave that to Him to decide. The universe does not appear as God does not exist; on the contrary the universe has plenty of evidence(which I will be presenting as this debate continues) for His existence.

You dismissed my claim that he could show himself to us without responding to the point it presents.
If there were truly a god, that "evidence" wouldn't be easily refuted by anyone with a decent education. (see above).
The evidence would be obvious. The universe is designed to look like a god is unnecessary. For example: It APPEARS, from looking at the genetic code of living things, that they all descended from a common ancestor, and as ancestry branches, similarities form between species and differences form between less-connected species. That's just one example that a truly all-knowing god should notice when designing the world to seem non-designed.



>>I claim to know that there is God because The Bible says that there is God. The Bible says many other things which have been proven to be correct. If everything else the Bible says is true, why wouldn't the God from the Bible be true?

The bible claims many things which have been proven to be false.
If, 2000 years ago, you made a few guesses about the world as it is, was, and will be;
Your success rate would be about the same as that of the bible.
If you were a fool who believed in magic and made ridiculous claims about the universe with no actual knowledge.

Name some things which have been shown to be true, which aren't vague beyond recognition, and I will refute them, if indeed you can come up with any, beyond the broad statement: "The bible says things which have been proven true".



>>>I know how to live my life because God told me in the Bible.

Again, you claim we, as humans, can't know anything about God. How do you know the real god is behind the bible? If anything, how do you know it's not the devil? What evidence do you have? Let's think this through as logical idiots. Let's pretend there is a god, and there is a satan. God created you, so he GAVE you the ability to think logically, and weigh evidence. You ignore that ability (forsaking god's gift), and choose to take blind faith instead.
Why would a REAL god give you a gift he didn't intend for you to use? Especially if it made it more difficult for you to believe in him?

>>>Yes, as humans and through our senses there is no way for us to know anything about God. That is exactly why God gave us the Bible. If He had not done so, there would non have been a reason to believe that he exists.

You're saying there's no reason to believe god exists outside of the bible.
You're saying you have scientific proof god exists, which is outside the bible.
You're saying you as a human can't know anything about god.
You're saying you know how god wants you to live your life.
Need I say more?



>>>Now that you have mentioned it, it kind of make sense to me. I am going to take your word for that moreover I confirm that you are made of broccoli Mr. Broccoli.

Making a joke of it doesn't make the point any less valid, and I still ask you to address that point.


>>>Maybe atheism is on the rise because from the age of 7 children are being educated by biased scientists. Teach the Bible to those children for a while and we'll see what's going to be on the rise.


"Biased scientists"?
You mean... biased toward truth?
Toward evidence?
Biased toward what, exactly? What is is about the scientific method excludes god? If a scientist came up with evidence for God, he would win the nobel prize. Period. Nobody is going to turn that down if they HAVE evidence.

Teach the Qaran to those children for a while, and "we'll see what's going to be on the rise".

See how all I have to do is replace your silly belief with someone else's and all of a sudden, it seems almost like a disease rather than something positive?


That's how us anti-theists see religion in general. We just don't discriminate.

 

[enterman]

Great stuff lordhathor. Especially love number 9 where he attempts to point out that the bible justifies all belief in his god.

 

[Daealis]

Let's think this through as logical idiots. Let's pretend there is a god, and there is a satan. God created you, so he GAVE you the ability to think logically, and weigh evidence. You ignore that ability (forsaking god's gift), and choose to take blind faith instead.
Why would a REAL god give you a gift he didn't intend for you to use? Especially if it made it more difficult for you to believe in him?

Had to laugh out loud right there. This is awesome material, so much win all around.

 

[lordhathor]

Had to laugh out loud right there. This is awesome material, so much win all around.

Thanks, I patted myself on the back when I thought that up. B-)

I'll be making a video about this in a 1-3 days, if he doesn't respond. If he does however, I'll post the log here and include that in the video as well.

 

[DarwinsOtherTheory]

Scientists can't hide their bias for reality.

 

[JerseyDagmar]

Epic win. I wonder if he's reading his bible, crying.