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Merriam-Webster vs Oxford

FaithlessThinker

New Member
arg-fallbackName="FaithlessThinker"/>
I was originally posting this as a reply to this post by Muskiet in the thread "You have GOD to be kiddin' me?", but then I thought this has to be a topic on its own.
Muskiet said:
The definition (found in Merriam Webster's dictionary) of "heresy" is "adherence to a religious opinion contrary to church dogma", ...
"Atheist" is defined in MW dictionary as "one who believes that there is no deity." Oxford gives the definition "a person who does not believe in the existence of God or gods." MW dictionary claims that the atheists have an active anti-theistic belief, whereas Oxford states that atheists only deny theistic beliefs. Which is correct?

"Heresy" is defined in Oxford as "belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine" and as "opinion profoundly at odds with what is generally accepted." Note that the reference to Christianity is provided in brackets to indicate that the word heresy is more commonly used in relation to Christianity, even though it is applicable to all religious doctrines.

Compare this to MW dictionary's first definiton which claims that heresy is specific to church dogma, especially Roman Catholic church, even though it attempts to get away with a second definiton "dissent or deviation from a dominant theory, opinion, or practice."

MW dictionary defines church as "a building for public and especially Christian worship" and "the whole body of Christians." Although MW dictionary also defines church as "the clergy or officialdom of a religious body" and "a body or organization of religious believers," we should know that the world "church" is widely understood to refer to Christianity.

Interestingly, Oxford has three definitions for "church" which directly links the word to Christianity, whereas only one definition which does not: "institutionalized religion as a political or social force." The example given for this fourth definition is "the separation of church and state."

But we must note that this definition cannot support an idea that the words "church dogma" in MW's definition of "heresy" cannot mean dogma of any religion's (scare quotes) "church." The fourth definition quoted above and its example makes it clear that the definition was only created because such a separation happened in Christian nations, and during such time, the term "seperation of church and state" was popularized. (It could have been "mosque and state," "temple and state," or "synagogue and state" depending on where the separation happened.)

The lack of support is because once again, the word "church" is widely understood to refer to Christianity, hence can be confusing if it is used to mean any other religion or the set of all religions. MW could have defined heresy as "adherence to an opinion contrary to an accepted religious dogma" which is less confusing and more correct, but chose not to.

I prefer not to use MW dictionary due to this apparent Christian bias I find in the dictionary, whereas I find Oxford dictionary authoritative and neutral in its definitions. I recommend you not to use MW dictionary but to use Oxford dictionary instead.

Links: Merriam Webster Dictionary | Oxford Dictionary

Disclaimer: This is my opinion. Factual accuracy is limited to the links, the definitions quoted, and the accepted facts used to make my inference.
 
arg-fallbackName="Muskiet"/>
Thank you for this post.
First I'd like to admit that English is not my first language, I am originally Dutch.
I must admit that I've been using MW's dictionary simply because I've always understood that it is the most used and gives therefore the best representation of definitions in the English language.
I was not aware of the big differences in definitions in different dictionaries.

Let me first say that my perfect definition of "atheist" would be "a person who does not believe in a supernatural deity".
If some Nookie Nookie tribe from Africa points at a tree and calls it their god, I'd have to agree that their god exists.
I can see the tree.
Whether the tree has supernatural powers though... that to me would be the god I don't believe in and that would make me an atheist towards that tree.

I must admit that I don't like big differences in definitions, and I too would love to have a pointer in a "more correct" direction.
I will use the Oxford's dictionary from now on or simply quote them both.

Edit: I would like to point out though that both definitions of the word "atheist" points to the same question:
"Do you believe in a deity".
If the answer is "no", by both definitions you are an atheist.
 
arg-fallbackName="FaithlessThinker"/>
Muskiet said:
I would like to point out though that both definitions of the word "atheist" points to the same question:
"Do you believe in a deity".
If the answer is "no", by both definitions you are an atheist.
Actually, the MW's definition (also) points to the question: "Do you believe there is no god?" According to MW, an atheist must answer "Yes, I believe there is no god." But the real answer an atheist would give is "No, I don't believe there is no god, because (1) negativity cannot be proven (2) there is no evidence to show that a god doesn't exist, just as there is no evidence that a god exists."

Hence MW's definition of "atheist" is flawed, whereas Oxford is correct. Atheists normally refuse to believe in any claim (be it positive or negative) until enough acceptable evidence is presented to support the claim. One who actively believes there is no god is holding a belief even though there is no evidence supporting it. He maybe an atheist because he doesn't believe in god, but he is also "religious" about his atheism, if you get what I mean.
 
arg-fallbackName="lrkun"/>
I am persuaded by your post to use oxord instead of merriam-webster dictionary. I am biased on the idea that an atheist does not believe in God. Oxford seems to be more specific in it's definitions. Yey, I'll buy an Oxford dictionary tomorrow. :D
 
arg-fallbackName="Prolescum"/>
It's likely that the differences are due to the subtle diverging of the British and American forms of English, as I understand MW is an American dictionary. In fact, history linky says something very similar :)

Quite fascinating.
 
arg-fallbackName="lrkun"/>
Here's a link to some information with respect to Oxford dictionary on wikipedia.
[showmoremsg msg=OXFORD]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_English_Dictionary#Origins[/showmoremsg]
 
arg-fallbackName="Ibis3"/>
One thing to keep in mind is that dictionaries (especially nowadays) are descriptive, which means they try to define words as they are actually used (as opposed to how they ought to be used). So as an American dictionary, M-W's definitions will be descriptive of how words are used in the US, whereas the Oxford describes British (and to a lesser degree international) usage.
 
arg-fallbackName="MRaverz"/>
Being British, I've always considered the Oxford dictionary as 'the' dictionary to use.

Looking over these extracts only backs up that opinion.


A dictionary should describe what a word actually means, not what people inaccurately believe it means and I feel that Oxford dictionaries achieve this.
 
arg-fallbackName="Ibis3"/>
MRaverz said:
A dictionary should describe what a word actually means, not what people inaccurately believe it means and I feel that Oxford dictionaries achieve this.

Alas, not always. For example, my CanOx defines prodigal (in the third sense) as "having returned after a long absence". This usage is wrong, wrong, wrong. It's a misunderstanding of the word's meaning by people who've taken it from the biblical parable and never bothered to find out what it actually means (spending lavishly to the point of excess/waste; from L. prodigus "wasteful," from prodigere "drive away, waste").

It does get it more right than wrong though, and I'm a big Oxford fan myself. I only use M-W if I'm editing an American text.
 
arg-fallbackName="MRaverz"/>
Ibis3 said:
MRaverz said:
A dictionary should describe what a word actually means, not what people inaccurately believe it means and I feel that Oxford dictionaries achieve this.

Alas, not always. For example, my CanOx defines prodigal (in the third sense) as "having returned after a long absence". This usage is wrong, wrong, wrong. It's a misunderstanding of the word's meaning by people who've taken it from the biblical parable and never bothered to find out what it actually means (spending lavishly to the point of excess/waste; from L. prodigus "wasteful," from prodigere "drive away, waste").

It does get it more right than wrong though, and I'm a big Oxford fan myself. I only use M-W if I'm editing an American text.
I guess the lesson here is that it's best to use a selection of dictionaries, but Oxford tends to be more correct than others.
 
arg-fallbackName="Commander Eagle"/>
anon1986sing said:
Actually, the MW's definition (also) points to the question: "Do you believe there is no god?" According to MW, an atheist must answer "Yes, I believe there is no god." But the real answer an atheist would give is "No, I don't believe there is no god, because (1) negativity cannot be proven (2) there is no evidence to show that a god doesn't exist, just as there is no evidence that a god exists."
Well, while Merriam-Webster's definition is incorrect (whether or not you actively believe that there is no god is irrelevant to whether or not you are an atheist), not all atheists would answer "no" to that question. I, for example, would answer that I believe there is no god, for the same reason that I believe there is no Yog-Sothoth or Cthulhu.
 
arg-fallbackName="cheneree"/>
Hi there. I checked those definitions in my Oxford Dictionary, Thesaurus & Wordpower Guide :cool: (interestingly the word wordpower doesn't actually appear in it) and found that there was no definition for atheist. However there is a definition for "atheism" which reads, "the belief that God does not exist".
Also the definition for "heresy" makes no mention of christianity and "church" has 3 definitions that are exclusive to christianity with no fourth definition of which you mentioned.
 
arg-fallbackName="FaithlessThinker"/>
cheneree said:
Hi there. I checked those definitions in my Oxford Dictionary, Thesaurus & Wordpower Guide :cool: (interestingly the word wordpower doesn't actually appear in it) and found that there was no definition for atheist. However there is a definition for "atheism" which reads, "the belief that God does not exist".
Also the definition for "heresy" makes no mention of christianity and "church" has 3 definitions that are exclusive to christianity with no fourth definition of which you mentioned.
You're forgetting that there are several different versions of Oxford dictionary. And I see that you're using a book that combines dictionary, thesaurus and wordpower guide, and the dictionary part only has 145,000 entries.

Remember that the Official Oxford English Dictionary Second Edition published in 1989, which runs into 20 (yes, twenty) volumes have 291,500 entries in total. And the third edition is coming soon. (Who knows how many more entries are gonna be on that one.)

I took my definitions from the online versions of the dictionaries which are freely available. I have provided the links for them, so that you can check the definitions yourself.
 
arg-fallbackName="cheneree"/>
Hi again. I am aware that there are many different versions of the Oxford Dictionary and also how extensive the full collection is. I wasn't trying to say that the definition you supplied was wrong if you thought that was implied, I just wanted to show that their was a difference between my dictionary and the online one.

The online Oxford dictionary definition for "atheism" reads, "disbelief in the existence of God or gods" and I think this one is more suitable than the one in my own dictionary because of the use of the words "belief" and "disbelief".
 
arg-fallbackName="Your Funny Uncle"/>
Ibis3 said:
MRaverz said:
A dictionary should describe what a word actually means, not what people inaccurately believe it means and I feel that Oxford dictionaries achieve this.

Alas, not always. For example, my CanOx defines prodigal (in the third sense) as "having returned after a long absence". This usage is wrong, wrong, wrong. It's a misunderstanding of the word's meaning by people who've taken it from the biblical parable and never bothered to find out what it actually means (spending lavishly to the point of excess/waste; from L. prodigus "wasteful," from prodigere "drive away, waste").

It does get it more right than wrong though, and I'm a big Oxford fan myself. I only use M-W if I'm editing an American text.
Actually the OED makes no attempt to define the "correct" usage of a word. It only records the way the word is being/has been used, hence the "incorrect" definition of prodigal; people have taken it out of context and now it has a new meaning. Every language evolves and definitions are ultimately decided by the public at large, not by etymologists. The OED serves as a record of this evolution, which means that if people are "getting it wrong" often and there are examples in print, Oxford will amend its definition.

This does not mean of course that the OED abandons the old definitions, so if you are looking at the full version of the dictionary you will always be able to trace the usage of a word and see where it comes from.
 
arg-fallbackName="Ibis3"/>
Your Funny Uncle said:
MRaverz said:
A dictionary should describe what a word actually means, not what people inaccurately believe it means and I feel that Oxford dictionaries achieve this.

Actually the OED makes no attempt to define the "correct" usage of a word. It only records the way the word is being/has been used, hence the "incorrect" definition of prodigal;

Yes. I know. I already pointed this out upthread. That was where this discussion started. (i.e. Me: Dictionaries today are descriptive. MRaverz:they should say what a word means not what people erroneously think it means & Oxford generally does this. Me: Not always. You: Dictionaries are descriptive.)

Oxford tends to be fairly conservative before accepting a wrong meaning as a valid usage (it must be very widely misused and/or for a considerable length of time), so it's generally reliable. But if I were in charge I would be a little more conservative even still. Yes, a dictionary's purpose is to describe meanings of words as they're actually used, but it is also employed as the reference for correct definitions and usage by the language's speakers. So when the lexicographers accept a mistake it's rather like giving speakers a stamp of approval to be idiots, thus increasing the spread of error.
 
arg-fallbackName="Your Funny Uncle"/>
Ibis3 said:
Yes. I know. I already pointed this out upthread. That was where this discussion started. (i.e. Me: Dictionaries today are descriptive. MRaverz:they should say what a word means not what people erroneously think it means & Oxford generally does this. Me: Not always. You: Dictionaries are descriptive.)
So you did. My apologies
Ibis3 said:
Oxford tends to be fairly conservative before accepting a wrong meaning as a valid usage (it must be very widely misused and/or for a considerable length of time), so it's generally reliable. But if I were in charge I would be a little more conservative even still. Yes, a dictionary's purpose is to describe meanings of words as they're actually used, but it is also employed as the reference for correct definitions and usage by the language's speakers. So when the lexicographers accept a mistake it's rather like giving speakers a stamp of approval to be idiots, thus increasing the spread of error.
Hmmm... I can see where you're coming from but I'm just not sure it's worth it. Fighting natural linguistic evolution seems to me a bit like trying to dam a river with pebbles; you might slow it down for a while but in the end your work will just get swept away.
 
arg-fallbackName="borrofburi"/>
Ibis3 said:
Oxford tends to be fairly conservative before accepting a wrong meaning as a valid usage (it must be very widely misused and/or for a considerable length of time), so it's generally reliable. But if I were in charge I would be a little more conservative even still. Yes, a dictionary's purpose is to describe meanings of words as they're actually used, but it is also employed as the reference for correct definitions and usage by the language's speakers. So when the lexicographers accept a mistake it's rather like giving speakers a stamp of approval to be idiots, thus increasing the spread of error.
It wouldn't tend to bother me much, (or really at all), except that it has this effect of changing the meaning of already existing works (for example, your example of prodigal and how that stems from and changes the bible).
 
arg-fallbackName="Andiferous"/>
The "Oxford Concise" or "Concise Oxford" dictionary was the standard for my University and (I understand) used for local journalism and the editing standard here. I'm prejudiced, but still, I've got to love a dictionary that has "concise" in the title.
 
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