Mandatory military service

[Divergedwoods]

Mexico, like other nations (maybe most other nations) has a system of mandatory military service under the name of "national military service" which I maintain is the most institutionalized euphemism I've heard, since what it stands for is enlisting as a reservist on the military.
The law which supports in came into action by a decree in august of 1942 (which might give you an idea as to which was instituted in the first place) and declared that all males had to enlist and receive military training for a year, when they turn eighteen.

At this time in history this is as unnecessary as it is ideologically bankrupt, specially for a country that hasn't had a serious participation in a war for a century (and even a century ago the military was part of the problem being fought) and until recently was practically unavoidable because a certificate of completion was a basic requisite for obtaining a passport. Still to this day the law considers it as an "obligation" of the parents, tutors or bosses of the individual to make sure he gets enlisted which is why many jobs ask for a certificate of completion upon highering (as a side note, the law also includes a passage that could only be interpreted as "parents, drag the kid down and get him enlisted in case of non compliance)

The initial idea of maintaining a well trained reserve capable of combat has gotten so diluted that "training" is commonly referred to as "marching" and it is done for a couple of hours one day a week, only a fraction of the work done goes to social activities, like reforestation campaigns and teaching in rural communities. They also use a lottery to reduce the amount of people in training, those who draw a black ball do active "training", while those who draw a white ball do their service "to disposition" (this means that they are still enlisted in the reserve, but without receiving any training what so ever)

One of my main issues with all of this is the open door for drafts, they wouldn't even have to be strictly speaking "drafts", since you are already in the reserve, so they would just be calling you to active service


Taking advantage of such an international crowd, I would like to get other people's opinions and perhaps even experiences

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

Oh nooooo~

How DARE THEY think that a country can provide for it's own defence? The NERVE.

:facepalm:

The only people who say this are people who don't realize how much it SUCKS to be without a Military. The Military is a sword and a shield. A lance and armor. Removing mandatory military service and complaining about a draft just because you don't like paying for it / straining over it is much like complaining about having to pay for mandatory auto insurance.
Does it suck? Yes. When's the last time you got in a wreck? YEARS AGO.
But when someone nails you - you fucking love that insurance company. And you feel so great that you were told that you needed to buy it - because if you didn't, you would have been double-boned up the ass by trannys.

A country needs a Military. Is there something wrong with making sure it has one?

 

[Master_Ghost_Knight]

In Portugal there was something similar a while ago, you could delay the entrance to the military service by claiming special interests (like getting into Uni, but you would have to do the service once that is over).
I ended not going into the military, not just because I went to Uni (which I did) but also because mandatory military service was over precisely in the year when it was my turn to get booted (now it is maintained under volunteering basis). What happen was that mandatory military service was costly, and since Portugal isn't in any position to start a conflict any time soon it didn't justified maintaining a military services above the minimal operational requierments (which can easilly be acomplished by volunteers). However if the political field changes, then I can get called at any time to do the service. This doesn't in anyway mean that they can call me into active duty without proper training first.
Historically it did seam the sameway as you see, that only people who haven't bailed out of the military could get a decent job, however the reality is if the criteria for getting a job stands on having military training then it is most likely not a qualified job (because the qualified jobs generaly requier you to have a higher education which falls under the special interest that allowed you to bail, and actually requers you to do so).
If it had been the case that I did had to attend military service, then that would still be ok (if we disregard he fact that it would delay my degree). Now either it is or isn't ok for country to have mandatory military service or have it on volunteer basis, it really depends on the situation of the country. A working military is fundamental necessite to ensure the sovereingty and safety of a country (either by foreign or domestic threats), and believe me if many people are not forced to, they won't, and the ammount of people that won't maybe to much not to be able to maintain a certain standard (and that must not happen).
That minimal standard will be different from country to country depending of their needs, and the number of volunteers will change acording to the socio-economic condition of the country (and offered benefits of the military). So what it is good for a country may not be for another.

I'm not really aware of the entirety of he circumstances that countrys like Mexico face in the military spectrum, so I can not say that it is either a good thing or a bad thing. It maybe that it is a bad thing, and it is a shame that you can't follow your own carreer. Or maybe it is a good thing, and you have to suck it up because others have to do it to, and someone has to pump the water out to keep the boat floating.

 

[Divergedwoods]

Oh nooooo~

How DARE THEY think that a country can provide for it's own defence? The NERVE.

:facepalm:

The only people who say this are people who don't realize how much it SUCKS to be without a Military. The Military is a sword and a shield. A lance and armor. Removing mandatory military service and complaining about a draft just because you don't like paying for it / straining over it is much like complaining about having to pay for mandatory auto insurance.
Does it suck? Yes. When's the last time you got in a wreck? YEARS AGO.
But when someone nails you - you fucking love that insurance company. And you feel so great that you were told that you needed to buy it - because if you didn't, you would have been double-boned up the ass by trannys.

A country needs a Military. Is there something wrong with making sure it has one?

The mandatory military service doesn't constitute the body of the military (like it does in Israel in some part), it only goes to form untrained and frankly useless reserves. I can't stress the word MANDATORY enough. Would you like to be forced to join the reserves and perhaps be called to active duty and, given the case, combat?

 

[AdmiralPeacock]

Oh nooooo~

How DARE THEY think that a country can provide for it's own defence? The NERVE.

:facepalm:

The only people who say this are people who don't realize how much it SUCKS to be without a Military. The Military is a sword and a shield. A lance and armor. Removing mandatory military service and complaining about a draft just because you don't like paying for it / straining over it is much like complaining about having to pay for mandatory auto insurance.
Does it suck? Yes. When's the last time you got in a wreck? YEARS AGO.
But when someone nails you - you fucking love that insurance company. And you feel so great that you were told that you needed to buy it - because if you didn't, you would have been double-boned up the ass by trannys.

A country needs a Military. Is there something wrong with making sure it has one?

I have to ask, but did you even read Divergedwoods post?

To emphasis just how random your response is in this context, I'll switch the specific concept.

Divergedwoods: Why should my house have screen doors as well as regular doors, I don't really need screen doors but it's illegal to take them down.
)O( Hytegia )O We need doors, you know how much it would suck without doors? Stop complaining about doors.

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

The mandatory military service doesn't constitute the body of the military (like it does in Israel in some part), it only goes to form untrained and frankly useless reserves. I can't stress the word MANDATORY enough. Would you like to be forced to join the reserves and perhaps be called to active duty and, given the case, combat?

It's not like we've been doing it since the dawn of time. I mean, it's just your HOMELAND. :roll:

Look. There are plenty of things in life that are mandatory. Being forced to join the military is the same as insurance that your country will be protected when it needs it. It's a common-effort provision for your national defense. This entire argument, to me, comes off as a little more than slightly selfish to the fact that YOU don't want to be FORCED to protect your country in it's time of need.
And I guarantee you that if they had a soldier recall, those soldiers would be refreshed on everything they had learned instead of being just thrown back into combat.

Sorry. I'm having a bad day, so my usual drop-hammer statements are sloppy.

 

[Duvelthehobbit666]

Military service should in no way be mandatory. People should have a choice if they want to be in the military or not. Don't forget that not everyone is strong enough to fight a war. They are not able to handle it mentally. And if you look at recent US history, the "defending" of the US seems minimal for the military. Hytegia, you mention that a military is there to defend a country. There hasn't been a proper war on US soil since the Civil War. All other wars were on foreign soil. It is not worth having mandatory military service just because you need soldiers in foreign lands. And what if you are against the war? If your country is fighting in a foreign country, and you are against the war, should you be forced to fight for something you don't support. No of course not. A volunteer army is fine as long as all people there want to be there. I live in the Netherlands and they are doing fine with their professional army. However I did get a letter saying that in extreme circumstances, I could be called to go fight for the Netherlands. This is not such a bad thing. Mandatory service only really works when it is needed. It is only when war is being fought and a country is short on personnel when it is good but just like divergedwoods said, it is not really needed so I do not see why it should be in place. I think this is something you should have a choice in. Hytegia, you seem to forget the psychological implications of being in the military and shooting a gun. Not everyone wants to shoot a gun and there are not enough desk jobs to give all those unwilling to shoot a gun.

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

Military service should in no way be mandatory. People should have a choice if they want to be in the military or not. Don't forget that not everyone is strong enough to fight a war. They are not able to handle it mentally. And if you look at recent US history, the "defending" of the US seems minimal for the military. Hytegia, you mention that a military is there to defend a country. There hasn't been a proper war on US soil since the Civil War. All other wars were on foreign soil. It is not worth having mandatory military service just because you need soldiers in foreign lands. And what if you are against the war? If your country is fighting in a foreign country, and you are against the war, should you be forced to fight for something you don't support. No of course not. A volunteer army is fine as long as all people there want to be there. I live in the Netherlands and they are doing fine with their professional army. However I did get a letter saying that in extreme circumstances, I could be called to go fight for the Netherlands. This is not such a bad thing. Mandatory service only really works when it is needed. It is only when war is being fought and a country is short on personnel when it is good but just like divergedwoods said, it is not really needed so I do not see why it should be in place. I think this is something you should have a choice in. Hytegia, you seem to forget the psychological implications of being in the military and shooting a gun. Not everyone wants to shoot a gun and there are not enough desk jobs to give all those unwilling to shoot a gun.

You should be allowed an escape for religious reasons, or being weak-willed in terms of death.

But, you get back down to it : just because it hasn't happened in a very long time doesn't mean that it WON'T happen.

 

[Duvelthehobbit666]

Military service should in no way be mandatory. People should have a choice if they want to be in the military or not. Don't forget that not everyone is strong enough to fight a war. They are not able to handle it mentally. And if you look at recent US history, the "defending" of the US seems minimal for the military. Hytegia, you mention that a military is there to defend a country. There hasn't been a proper war on US soil since the Civil War. All other wars were on foreign soil. It is not worth having mandatory military service just because you need soldiers in foreign lands. And what if you are against the war? If your country is fighting in a foreign country, and you are against the war, should you be forced to fight for something you don't support. No of course not. A volunteer army is fine as long as all people there want to be there. I live in the Netherlands and they are doing fine with their professional army. However I did get a letter saying that in extreme circumstances, I could be called to go fight for the Netherlands. This is not such a bad thing. Mandatory service only really works when it is needed. It is only when war is being fought and a country is short on personnel when it is good but just like divergedwoods said, it is not really needed so I do not see why it should be in place. I think this is something you should have a choice in. Hytegia, you seem to forget the psychological implications of being in the military and shooting a gun. Not everyone wants to shoot a gun and there are not enough desk jobs to give all those unwilling to shoot a gun.

You should be allowed an escape for religious reasons, or being weak-willed in terms of death.

But, you get back down to it : just because it hasn't happened in a very long time doesn't mean that it WON'T happen.

And once it happens, you change the laws regarding mandatory military services or put a clause in which says that it is not mandatory unless in a crisis. As long as there is no need of it, you should not have something which takes time and energy away from people when those people can do other more productive work. Would you rather have someone like an engineer waste a year on training, or would you have them design objects to benefit mankind. Sorry but having mandatory military service when a professional one already suffices seems dumb.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

On the other hand...

Mandatory service or a draft would give everyone a little more incentive to maybe make sure, ummm... how do I put this? A little incentive to make sure we're invading the right motherfucking country?!?!

 

[lrkun]

According to e-how,

Military Preparedness
Nations with major defense issues seek to lessen the burden of their armed forces by requiring increased military participation from their citizens. The United States, which has an all-volunteer military, has found that its forces are heavily strained due to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, and proponents of mandatory military service have suggested this is part of the solution.
National Unity and Diversity in the Armed Forces
In the United States, a volunteer military attracts those that are most in need of a career and money for higher education. Requiring military service diversifies the armed forces and removes a disproportionate amount of the burden from the poor and from ethnic minorities. The result is a greater sense of national unity and integration between races and economic classes.
A More Competitive Workforce
The military has always provided a valuable place for those with less resources at their disposal to gain important skills. Those with a military background are more competitive in the career pool and carry with them skills that can be applied to fields outside the military.
Discipline and Public Service
Some proponents of mandatory military service argue that young people leaving school in their teen years, either by graduating or dropping out, create societal disadvantages. Military service instills in recruits an understanding of responsibility and sacrifice from working for a greater cause in unison with fellow citizens.

[1]

Do you agree or disagree?

---

1. http://www.ehow.com/facts_4868048_benefits-mandatory-military-service.html

 

[Duvelthehobbit666]

On the other hand...

Mandatory service or a draft would give everyone a little more incentive to maybe make sure, ummm... how do I put this? A little incentive to make sure we're invading the right motherfucking country?!?!

How, wouldn't the fact that you have a greater military force increase the incentive to go to war because you have a greater number of soldiers.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

How, wouldn't the fact that you have a greater military force increase the incentive to go to war because you have a greater number of soldiers.

Yeah, but if middle class kids could be involuntarily dragged into wars, their parents would exert political pressure against just randomly attacking people. An all-volunteer force tends to come from lower class folks with no political pull, and the rest of the country says "fuck them, they signed up so they should STFU and go die for me."

 

[Duvelthehobbit666]

How, wouldn't the fact that you have a greater military force increase the incentive to go to war because you have a greater number of soldiers.

Yeah, but if middle class kids could be involuntarily dragged into wars, their parents would exert political pressure against just randomly attacking people. An all-volunteer force tends to come from lower class folks with no political pull, and the rest of the country says "fuck them, they signed up so they should STFU and go die for me."

But mandatory service did not stop wars like Korea and Vietnam. If you were drafted, you needed to go. Nor did it stop WWI and WWII where there were many casualties. Do you remember history class where "going over the top" was described when discussing WWI. People from all walks of life were there and if you were chosen for going over the top, it did not matter what social class you came from. Military service is not something that should be forced upon you except in very dire situations. The western world is not in such a situation so I see no use for it. I should not be forced to kill for my country when my county isn't being invaded. Joining the military should be something you choose to do. If I don't want to join the military, I should be able not to join the military. The fact that I can control my life is what make the western world great. I have the freedom to not join the military and taking this freedom away makes such a country not a free country anymore.

 

[Master_Ghost_Knight]

As I have mentioned but aparently nobody cared. Things are not that polarized, this isn't a black and white issue, there are many shades of grey. What works for US doesn't necessarily work for Mexico, the needs of one country is not the same as the other. Nor it is a simple case that is fair to play with the cards you are dealt. I don't know of the circumstances that Mexico faces in this aspect, nor does anyone else. This is a rather a case for the people that live in those circumstance and know the situation, to re-avaluate their needs and decide what is the best outcome.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

But mandatory service did not stop wars like Korea and Vietnam. If you were drafted, you needed to go. Nor did it stop WWI and WWII where there were many casualties. Do you remember history class where "going over the top" was described when discussing WWI. People from all walks of life were there and if you were chosen for going over the top, it did not matter what social class you came from. Military service is not something that should be forced upon you except in very dire situations. The western world is not in such a situation so I see no use for it. I should not be forced to kill for my country when my county isn't being invaded. Joining the military should be something you choose to do. If I don't want to join the military, I should be able not to join the military. The fact that I can control my life is what make the western world great. I have the freedom to not join the military and taking this freedom away makes such a country not a free country anymore.

The bolded part makes my point for me. If you HAD to fight for your country, you'd work hard to make sure you weren't being sent to die for bullshit. Vietnam couldn't happen again if there was a draft, because we're all sort of cynical about how the government makes war now. Since there's no draft, people can make cavalier statements about volunteers and give no thought to the lost and ruined lives.

 

[Duvelthehobbit666]

But mandatory service did not stop wars like Korea and Vietnam. If you were drafted, you needed to go. Nor did it stop WWI and WWII where there were many casualties. Do you remember history class where "going over the top" was described when discussing WWI. People from all walks of life were there and if you were chosen for going over the top, it did not matter what social class you came from. Military service is not something that should be forced upon you except in very dire situations. The western world is not in such a situation so I see no use for it. I should not be forced to kill for my country when my county isn't being invaded. Joining the military should be something you choose to do. If I don't want to join the military, I should be able not to join the military. The fact that I can control my life is what make the western world great. I have the freedom to not join the military and taking this freedom away makes such a country not a free country anymore.

The bolded part makes my point for me. If you HAD to fight for your country, you'd work hard to make sure you weren't being sent to die for bullshit. Vietnam couldn't happen again if there was a draft, because we're all sort of cynical about how the government makes war now. Since there's no draft, people can make cavalier statements about volunteers and give no thought to the lost and ruined lives.

A) Actually, Vietnam could happen again even with a draft. People seem to forget the lessons of history. It might not be in my lifetime but I see that the chances of it happening quite high.

B) People actually do care or they would not be protesting the current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Say rather that the government doesn't care and you must not forget that the opinion of the government is not always the opinion of the people. Don't forget that the soldiers of a volunteer army chose to volunteer.

 

[ArthurWilborn]

Well, whether or not you have a mandatory military service people would still need to be vigilant of their government, so this is a non-issue in this context.

I have nothing against mandatory military service per se. A military is a necessary and legitimate function of a government, and requiring citizens to take part in it is a traditional and legitimate function of government. Even in the US, it's one of the few explicit powers given to the national government.

In many countries where warfare seems unlikely, such as Germany, this mandatory service can also be spent doing public service. I'm a bit leery of what is a (very nice, admittedly) form of slavery to the government, but such programs seem to serve their purpose well enough without creating an undue burden on citizens.

 

[Duvelthehobbit666]

Well, whether or not you have a mandatory military service people would still need to be vigilant of their government, so this is a non-issue in this context.

I have nothing against mandatory military service per se. A military is a necessary and legitimate function of a government, and requiring citizens to take part in it is a traditional and legitimate function of government. Even in the US, it's one of the few explicit powers given to the national government.

In many countries where warfare seems unlikely, such as Germany, this mandatory service can also be spent doing public service. I'm a bit leery of what is a (very nice, admittedly) form of slavery to the government, but such programs seem to serve their purpose well enough without creating an undue burden on citizens.

If there was an alternative such as in Germany where you can do public service instead of military service, I would not complain. However, the discussion is only about military service and not an alternative.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

A) Actually, Vietnam could happen again even with a draft. People seem to forget the lessons of history. It might not be in my lifetime but I see that the chances of it happening quite high.

B) People actually do care or they would not be protesting the current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Say rather that the government doesn't care and you must not forget that the opinion of the government is not always the opinion of the people. Don't forget that the soldiers of a volunteer army chose to volunteer.

Every time you repeat that, you reinforce my point. Keep up the good work! :lol: