Losing your enthusiasm for atheism

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

A true believer believes (s)he is "saving" you - or a child.

Even though, from a atheist's perspective, the believer is misleading the individual.

I can understand how this may appear when the "victim" is a vulnerable person - whether a child or a recovering addict, who are often targeted by Jehovah's Witnesses and/or Mormons or other cults.

I agree that it's sometimes hard to tell from the outside whether this is intentional or whether it's just a case of a true believer.

We may not always be able to distinguish whether it's intentional (lying) or not (genuine concern for your "salvation") - but it still comes down to intent.

I agree that a true believer is not lying when they think they can "save" someone. However, many seem to feel that this noble goal justifies lying and misleading people to get them on board or keep them there.

In this case, it's lying, because they know they're lying - even if it's for a "good cause". This is in contrast to those who believe what they're saying totally.

The most overt example of this of which I am aware is the Church of Scientology which trains recruiters to find out what a perspective member wants and then claim Scientology addresses whatever that is. The instruction from Hubbard is to "find their ruin". The justification is that they will be better off with Scientology so the recruiter is helping them even though they might be deceiving them about the specifics.

I don't believe that most people who have studied at a seminary honestly think everything they say to their parishioners is actually true. Unless they adopt Martin Luther's position that reason is the enemy and should not be applied to Christian thought.

Certainly the "professionals" are most likely to either know or have doubts about what they're preaching - it's more a case of the average parishioner who totally believes what they're told and tries to "save" someone who isn't lying.

Kindest regards,

James

 

[SpecialFrog]

Certainly the "professionals" are most likely to either know or have doubts about what they're preaching - it's more a case of the average parishioner who totally believes what they're told and tries to "save" someone who isn't lying.

I think we are basically in agreement at this point.

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

Certainly the "professionals" are most likely to either know or have doubts about what they're preaching - it's more a case of the average parishioner who totally believes what they're told and tries to "save" someone who isn't lying.

I think we are basically in agreement at this point.

Kindest regards,

James

 

[surreptitious57]

I am an apatheist and as I get older I have less fixed views on anything outside of mathematics. Death is the final destination for all of us and as such I realise that being
absolute about anything is rather superfluous at the end of the day. There has been a cyber schism in the online atheist community but atheists are just as much ground apes as anyone else so sadly one should not be too surprised at that. I try to take the good from all and use that to formulate a better moral philosophy but it is a work in progress and one that can never be fully realised. But none of it ultimately matters in the end as it will be of precisely zero use to wherever are going but so be it. I do not worry about things beyond my control because it just a complete waste of time and energy. In the meantime I keep busy and harm no one while waiting for the inevitable transference from consciousness to non consciousness whenever that may be

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

Welcome, surreptitious57, to LoR!

Kindest regards,

James

 

[surreptitious57]

I see myself as an educator and the odd person that comes along thanking me for providing them with the tools to meet
nonsensical horseshit head on tells me that I must be doing something right so I keep at it even when I begin to get weary

Two points : firstly one is not responsible for others that may have closed minds for that is only something which they can resolve. All a teacher
can do is provide a student with knowledge. If the student for what ever reason does not wish to avail themselves of it then that is not their fault
Long as the information has been presented in a comprehensive format and without an agenda other than to educate that is all that they can do

Secondly your knowledge is valued by many of us at the other place and so is not just confined to theists. And so do not think that they are your
only audience for they are not. You know very well that you are generally very much respected over there as your input on all matters pertaining
to physics and to a lesser extent biology is very much appreciated. I my self am rather impressed by your clinical approach on all subject matter
but specifically on scientific ones. I do not always agree with you on some of your less factual observations but that does not in no way diminish
the respect I have for you. So keep on doing what you are doing and do not worry about those who disregard you as there are many who do not

 

[Lallapalalable]

My account activity on this board should say everything anyone needs to know

I think my reasons boil down to getting older. The peak of my interest in the whole topic started five years ago (holy shit!), and since then I went from unemployed college dropout to someone with actual responsibilities, and the time just wasn't there anymore. Even without the loss of free time, I was starting to feel bored by debate anyway. For one, there were three very probable results to any serious debate on the subject:

One, you will exchange facts, discuss, and agree to disagree;

Two, they will be stubborn and ignorant, and no matter what rebuttal you toss their way they'll write it off just because you don't agree with them;

Or three, you're being trolled.

Then, I started hearing the same arguments over and over, from both sides. It was fun and interesting and exciting when I was learning and reading new things, but too soon I wasn't. It was "same shit, different youtube channel," and the lack of novelty really hit my enthusiasm hard. But the nail in the coffin came when my friend got out of the army and moved back to the area. He was ready to party, and I had the connections, so we spent a good year and a half just doing whatever drug we could find, mostly psychedelics. He and I, plus a few other friends, would spend almost all of our free time talking about the nature of the universe and reality, analyzing our physical and emotional responses to things, and just everything that I was looking for here, but more satisfying because it was face to face with real people (no offense). Eventually, our conversations too got repetitive, and I lost enthusiasm for them as well.

So, put all of that together and, yeah, I'm getting old.

 

[televator]

dude I've felt this way for a while.

I've kind of always been an atheist, even though I didn't realize it for a long time. Religion angered me for all the stupid shit it did, but I never really questioned that. Then an ex-girlfriend exposed me to the idea that I'm an atheist. I had never put a label to it or considered it.

When I sat down and analyzed it, I was furious. I was mad as hell, and I wasn't gonna take it any more! So I started talking to other atheists, joined this site, others, etc. This was always my favorite forum though, because the people here were much more reasoned and less knee-jerk emotional about everything than some of the big atheist boards.

I used to be vocal, I'd decry any whackadoo spouting their crap. But I used to go out and seek it, I used to whip myself up into anger just thinking on shit. Now I don't go looking for it, and I only speak up when it needs to be shot down. No sense getting mad at Old Miss Gerhardt for saying "bless you" when I sneeze. I've also removed religious habitual phrases from my vocabulary. Instead of "bless you" I say "salud" - instead of "thank god" it's "thank fuck" - instead of "oh god" it's "sweet cthulhu" - and so forth.

Recently, I've chilled the fuck out with it. I just don't care enough, and I have other things I want to invest my energy in. I have an awesome job that I've worked hard to get, and I love it and want to keep myself sharp for it. I'm getting in shape. As of this past week there's a skirt I've been chasing - and she's stopped to shake it a couple times so I know it's not in vain. I'm working on my band, we're going out and playing shows. Life is too good to spend angry about assholes. I'm taking the Bad Religion approach and condemning them through song, and having a great time while doing it.

I'm a bit late on reply, but it's good you're doing well, Zero. I also don't go out of my way anymore to advertise my atheism. I only bring it up when necessary in conversation with inquisitive theists or people who tell me they doubt their religion. I no longer wear my atheism on my sleeve.

Recently, I got help from a psychiatrist to help finally settle my depression issues. I've also been living, for a while now, in my Mexican place of birth and I've helping my father with his small business. Some of my theist aunts and uncles heard about my mental troubles and thought that Jesus is what would fix me right up, so they invited me to their christian church. I made it known that I'm an atheist, but I went to the church as an observer. They've since backed off though. Heh

One of my dad's young employees is a real science fan and started to tell me about his doubts in religion. I told him about web sites that could be of good reference and I've been open to any questions he's had about atheism. It feels good knowing that I could be there to let him know it's perfectly okay to not believe.

 

[Laurens]

Essentially I think the main reason I have become disenfranchised with the atheism movement or whatever you want to call it is because religion has zero impact on my life. The only thing I can really think of is the fact that the head of state in the UK is also the head of the C of E and that there are unelected bishops in the House of Lords. These things however are minor symptoms of far wider problems with the establishment in this country, and there are far more toxic and damaging aspects to focus on before getting to these. I don't have children who are getting taught creationism at school, I don't face bullying at work and rejection from family and friends because I am an atheist. In my day to day existence it just doesn't matter.

Because of this, I kinda feel like being vocal about my atheism, as though it were some civil rights issue would be unjustifiable. Of course it can at times be interesting to discuss, but I no longer wish to do so without being prompted. For the most part though, I've done the discussion to death and then some.

 

[Steelmage99]

Essentially I think the main reason I have become disenfranchised with the atheism movement or whatever you want to call it is because religion has zero impact on my life. .

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

 

[Laurens]

Essentially I think the main reason I have become disenfranchised with the atheism movement or whatever you want to call it is because religion has zero impact on my life. .

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

There are far more important things to speak out against than the persecution of non-believers in this country---something that just does not happen.

The government fucking over the poor in every which way possible, whilst giving tax breaks to the rich for example. I'd much rather speak against that injustice because it is a real problem that is forcing people into homelessness and disabled people to die after having their welfare cut. Putting a 10 commandments monument on a lawn is an insignificant quarrel when compared to that.

Edited for grammar.

 

[Steelmage99]

There are far more important things to speak out against than the persecution of non-believers in this country---something that just does not happen.

The government fucking over the poor in every which way possible, whilst giving tax breaks to the rich for example. I'd much rather speak against that injustice because it is a real problem that is forcing people into homelessness and disabled people to die after having their welfare cut. Putting a 10 commandments monument on a lawn is an insignificant quarrel when compared to that.

Edited for grammar.

I understand.

I also find the most resource-rich country in the world deciding to cut stem-cell research funding for eight years because President Bozo The Clown has religious concerns worrying.

Not all religious issues are as insignificant as having a picture of Jebus on the dollar-bill and the like.

 

[Laurens]

There are far more important things to speak out against than the persecution of non-believers in this country---something that just does not happen.

The government fucking over the poor in every which way possible, whilst giving tax breaks to the rich for example. I'd much rather speak against that injustice because it is a real problem that is forcing people into homelessness and disabled people to die after having their welfare cut. Putting a 10 commandments monument on a lawn is an insignificant quarrel when compared to that.

Edited for grammar.

I understand.

I also find the most resource-rich country in the world deciding to cut stem-cell research funding for eight years because President Bozo The Clown has religious concerns worrying.

Not all religious issues are as insignificant as having a picture of Jebus on the dollar-bill and the like.

To be fair I think I might find it more of an issue if I lived in the states.

Over here though, especially in my generation religion is viewed as a bit silly.

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

As I pointed out back on the first page of this thread, why focus on just atheism? Is there not something else that interests you? I mean look at my blog history, it is about fossils. Do you not have any interests that you feel are worth sharing?

 

[Dustnite]

It's intruding into everyone's lives here in the states. I'm just hoping the American people don't elect Trump or I'm going to have to move to Canada...

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

It's intruding into everyone's lives here in the states. I'm just hoping the American people don't elect Trump or I'm going to have to move to Canada...

[sarcasm]Carson/Trump 2016!

Black to Black 2016 **==[/sarcasm]

 

[Laurens]

As I pointed out back on the first page of this thread, why focus on just atheism? Is there not something else that interests you? I mean look at my blog history, it is about fossils. Do you not have any interests that you feel are worth sharing?

I do, although 90% of them are not related to the content of these forums.

The only thing I can really think of that I am currently very fascinated by is neuroscience, but I have a lot of reading to do before I would be able to post in detail about it!

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

As I pointed out back on the first page of this thread, why focus on just atheism? Is there not something else that interests you? I mean look at my blog history, it is about fossils. Do you not have any interests that you feel are worth sharing?

I do, although 90% of them are not related to the content of these forums.

The only thing I can really think of that I am currently very fascinated by is neuroscience, but I have a lot of reading to do before I would be able to post in detail about it!

Before I got here, how much talk of fossils was there on this forum? I highly doubt that 90% of what you are interested in would fall on deaf ears here. There have been a lot of very diverse subjects pop up on this forum and they have all garnered attention.

 

[ldmitruk]

It's intruding into everyone's lives here in the states. I'm just hoping the American people don't elect Trump or I'm going to have to move to Canada...

I guess us Canuk's are going to have to start building a wall along the U.S. Canada border to keep out all the expected immigrants to Canada if Trump wins :lol:

 

[DepricatedZero]

Annex the Northern states. We just need to take off the Bible Belt.