AronRa
Administrator
Yesterday I got the following email from a financial adviser in New Zealand.
It’s not an honest dilemma for two reasons.
(1) Being a product of undirected incidents and natural processes is no indication that you shouldn’t trust your brain. On the contrary, your ancestry of survivors of life-and-death struggles is one good reason why you should trust your brain. There are two basic perspectives here, those with a deep-seated emotional need to believe impossible nonsense, and those who have a desire to understand the way things really are. The latter group has a very different way of judging information. The only value any claim can have is how true we can show it to be. If you can’t show that it’s true at all, then it has no value at all; it is only an empty assertion unsupported by anything, and therefore beneath serious consideration. The fact that no one can show that religion isn’t just a product of human imagination is further exacerbated by the fact that there is so much that we can show religion to be wrong about. Then there is the point that the only way to improve understanding is to seek out the flaws in your current perception and correct them. You can’t do that if you believe anything on faith.
(2) Religion is the only thing telling us not to trust our brains. Faith is an unreasonable assertion of complete conviction which is assumed without reason and defended against all reason. You’re supposed to believe things that are not indicated by any evidence, and you’re supposed to maintain that belief despite all evidence to the contrary. It is already dishonest to assert as fact that which is not evidently true, yet that’s what all religions do. They pretend to ‘witness’ things they’ve never seen, saying they know things no one can honestly say they know, and they claim facts that are not facts. As if that wasn’t bad enough, faith also requires an unreasonable resistance to reason itself, in the form of apologetics. This is the practice of making up excuses to rationalize, justify, or dismiss all the arguments against your position. That’s where your challenge comes from, prompting you to misrepresent the situation as if there was ever any reason to distrust our own brains. That’s also why you won’t really donate $10,000.00 to Médecins Sans Frontières. You never intended to do that. Instead your goal was to pretend to present an unanswerable dilemma and arbitrarily dismiss every perfectly good answer you get -without any transparency. So there is no way for anyone else to see all the answers like this one that you actually did get.
So I’ve decided to post your question to my blog, just so that people have some way to know that I did answer it.
For whatever reason, this guy decided to continue the conversation:
You should post what you just did as a comment to my blog. I want everyone to see how dishonest your position is, and that would be the best way to show them.
But faith REQUIRES dishonesty, and gullibility too. In fact gullibility is the sole criteria for redemption. Your religion is all lies and nothing but lies. If you cared at all about truth, then I can prove to you that evolution is an inescapable fact of population genetics and phylogeny, and that the Bible has already been proven wrong on every testable claim that it makes, and that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support it. But you can't take that challenge, but defending your delusion is more important than understanding the way things really are. Unsupported belief matters more to you than does demonstrably accurate knowledge.
I would ask that anyone else reading this thread not contribute to it, at least until after I see whether this guy will participate in this forum.
So I replied:As you strike me as an honest and sincere authority in the atheist worldview, could you please help me by advising me:
1. How can I be an intellectually honest atheist when it seems to me that atheism itself, logically demands that I distrust my brain, because it’s merely a cosmic accident - evolved from a random, mindless and unguided process in the 1st place?
I’ll donate $10,000 to a mutually agreeable charity for the 1st person who can answer my honest dilemma.
Your help would mean a lot to me.
Thanks in advance.
It’s not an honest dilemma for two reasons.
(1) Being a product of undirected incidents and natural processes is no indication that you shouldn’t trust your brain. On the contrary, your ancestry of survivors of life-and-death struggles is one good reason why you should trust your brain. There are two basic perspectives here, those with a deep-seated emotional need to believe impossible nonsense, and those who have a desire to understand the way things really are. The latter group has a very different way of judging information. The only value any claim can have is how true we can show it to be. If you can’t show that it’s true at all, then it has no value at all; it is only an empty assertion unsupported by anything, and therefore beneath serious consideration. The fact that no one can show that religion isn’t just a product of human imagination is further exacerbated by the fact that there is so much that we can show religion to be wrong about. Then there is the point that the only way to improve understanding is to seek out the flaws in your current perception and correct them. You can’t do that if you believe anything on faith.
(2) Religion is the only thing telling us not to trust our brains. Faith is an unreasonable assertion of complete conviction which is assumed without reason and defended against all reason. You’re supposed to believe things that are not indicated by any evidence, and you’re supposed to maintain that belief despite all evidence to the contrary. It is already dishonest to assert as fact that which is not evidently true, yet that’s what all religions do. They pretend to ‘witness’ things they’ve never seen, saying they know things no one can honestly say they know, and they claim facts that are not facts. As if that wasn’t bad enough, faith also requires an unreasonable resistance to reason itself, in the form of apologetics. This is the practice of making up excuses to rationalize, justify, or dismiss all the arguments against your position. That’s where your challenge comes from, prompting you to misrepresent the situation as if there was ever any reason to distrust our own brains. That’s also why you won’t really donate $10,000.00 to Médecins Sans Frontières. You never intended to do that. Instead your goal was to pretend to present an unanswerable dilemma and arbitrarily dismiss every perfectly good answer you get -without any transparency. So there is no way for anyone else to see all the answers like this one that you actually did get.
So I’ve decided to post your question to my blog, just so that people have some way to know that I did answer it.
For whatever reason, this guy decided to continue the conversation:
Obviously your computer system would have to be biological and subject to natural selection in order to be refined to the level of perfection worthy of purchase. But this would be immediately demonstrable and would not require any faith at all. Since faith is the most dishonest position it is possible to have, then any belief which requires faith should be rejected simply because faith is required. Let's work with things we know and can show to be correct instead.Thanks Aron.
I've a computer software program for sale.
It serves no objective purpose.
It was created from an unguided process.
There was no mind behind its creation.
It's also the result of a random series of cosmic accidents.
If you'd like to buy it from me and have blind faith in the answers that the software gave you, then I applaud you for you own naive intellectual honesty.
Perhaps you'd like to add that to your blog as well.
I however don't share the same blind faith you have in your brain when it informs you that atheism is true.
In New Zealand we tend to have s greater understanding of irony than those in USA.
You should post what you just did as a comment to my blog. I want everyone to see how dishonest your position is, and that would be the best way to show them.
Dishonesty is reprehensible. Yes it can get one out of trouble, just like violence, but it also causes harm, just like violence, and should avoided except as a last resort in self defense, just like violence.Another thing I’d have to logically admit to (if I was an intellectually honest atheist) is that dishonesty is a legitimate evolutionary survival trait.
So therefore I am having great difficulty reconciling your very own self-righteous moralising on the matter of dishonesty with your claim that you’re an atheist.
I.e what you say does not make sense to me.
But faith REQUIRES dishonesty, and gullibility too. In fact gullibility is the sole criteria for redemption. Your religion is all lies and nothing but lies. If you cared at all about truth, then I can prove to you that evolution is an inescapable fact of population genetics and phylogeny, and that the Bible has already been proven wrong on every testable claim that it makes, and that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support it. But you can't take that challenge, but defending your delusion is more important than understanding the way things really are. Unsupported belief matters more to you than does demonstrably accurate knowledge.
After hundreds and hundreds of these type discussions hidden away in personal email, I've learned that there is no purpose in continuing a private dialogue with someone determined to dismiss or ignore everything I say. So the only value this conversation can have is if we move it to an open forum, where it will be available in public archives.Could you just please spare me the ad-hominem diatribes when corresponding.
Rather than having to wade through this constant onslaught of tiresome and clichéd diatribes against my faith, may I instead please merely get from you a better understanding of:
1. how it is that you can be clearly so self-righteously indignant about my alleged (unproven) dishonesty on one hand, while on the other hand
2. you subscribe to your very own (and indeed unproven) faith in your brain to inform you that atheism is true?
I make this honest plea, because if atheism is true, then what rational basis is there to:
a. believe that what my brain is telling me is the truth and
b. to in anyway treat dishonesty as being even remotely reprehensible?
Please also rest assured that I’m not going to regurgitate my previous unanswered query, when I asked you to “show it that you know it” when you continually trot out the (so-far) unsubstantiated “If you can’t show it then you don’t know it” slogan.
I found the irony from your failure particularly remarkable and also a resounding blot on your slogan.
I appreciate you’ve a large fan following. E.g I can imagine The Americanised hype of “RaRa AronRa” being trumpeted whenever you’re introduced at the self-proclaimed “Reason” Rallies.
I also realise that your views appeal to a certain character type and how you seem to be wedded to your faith views in such a way that my very own counterpoints represent a pesky challenge that you’re having difficulty in intellectually addressing, which is perhaps why you’ve resorted to ad-hominem attacks.
So please let us keep the exchange of ideas and opinions on a civil basis.
Let us get one thing clear.
That is, that evolution itself bears no threat to my religious faith. Therefore I don’t need anybody to prove to me that evolution is either true or false.
However one thing I’d dearly love for you to prove to me (from your atheistic standpoint) is that:
1. How do your “shoulds” arise to the point that you’ve the “right” to tell me what I should and should not do?
And
2. What is reprehensible about violence or dishonesty, when after-all we are merely just fellow lumps of meat on legs who populate the animal kingdom and possessing no more dignity or worth than a zebra being mauled by a lion?
I would ask that anyone else reading this thread not contribute to it, at least until after I see whether this guy will participate in this forum.