LGBT adoption

[Nemesis]

Should lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people be able to adopt?
Oh, and, if we are on the subject, should a lesbian be able to have a baby (sperm from a donor) that she will keep in a lesbian couple? Or a gay person donates sperm to a girl, the girl has the baby and gives it to the gay person. You get the point.
This is different from adopting a kid, because in the adoption case you could say "it's better for the kid to be adopted by a LGBT couple or person than staying in an orphanage".

I think they should, I see no problem in it.

 

[Aught3]

Seems fairly obvious.

 

[IBSpify]

I fail to see why they shouldn't they are just as fit to be parents as any other couple

 

[ImprobableJoe]

The issue makes you really wonder: why do fundamentalist Christians hate children so much?

 

[felixthecoach]

This is one subject that really gets me heated. Every time I pass a car on the road with that fucking bumper sticker: "Protect Marriage! Vote YES on Amendment 1" I wanna jump in the car with them and slap them in the head.

The thing is, everything from marriage to adoption, humans are humans. People in the LGTB community have no nocks against them statistically. Actually, most of the stats indicate that people in those types of communities are MORE ready to adopt. This is because they are financially independent, emotionally aware of their motives, and overall more stable in their decision making than straight couples (on average). This means that the child will be raised in a better immediate environment, especially when considering that the alternative is an orphanage or rotation from one bad foster home to another.

Of course, fundamentalists and stupid idiots who think homosexual somehow means pedophile will fight, kill, and ruin the lives of people in those communities before they even begin to consider that it might, just might, be okay to allow the adoption process to occur.

GAH! I'm pissed now! I need to go eat a baby... seeing as I'm immoral and all.

 

[felixthecoach]

O by the way. I'd like to suggest changing the question in the poll to

"Should it be legal for homosexual couples to adopt children?"

No big deal if you don't change it...

 

[Distructica]

Basic psychology says that you only need one loving parent of any gender to raise a psychologically healthy child. You need at least one good parent with the ability to support the child to raise a healthy child. Gender is not an issue so lets stop pretending there needs to be a peen and a vageen in the house.

 

[Nemesis]

O by the way. I'd like to suggest changing the question in the poll to

"Should it be legal for homosexual couples to adopt children?"

No big deal if you don't change it...

I was also referring to a single LGBT person adopting, and i said in the title and in my first post: "Should lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people be able to adopt?".
So I don't see why I should change the question, I don't think gay is an offensive term and I am not so sure that if I change the question the votes will remain, so people might have to vote again.

 

[felixthecoach]

Yeah, I kinda said, no big deal if you dont change it, because it's no big deal.

 

[PuppetXeno]

I don't doubt gay people or transgenders can be good parents, but right now I'm thinking about the social implications for the child... We can all be very understanding and rational about this, but children in school won't be. Well, atleast not the ones who bully all the others into forming their opinions accordingly.

No reason to dismiss it's legality ofcourse, but this is something to think about.

 

[Distructica]

I don't doubt gay people or transgenders can be good parents, but right now I'm thinking about the social implications for the child... We can all be very understanding and rational about this, but children in school won't be. Well, atleast not the ones who bully all the others into forming their opinions accordingly.

No reason to dismiss it's legality ofcourse, but this is something to think about.

That has to do more with how we raise our kids, at first it will be a problem but as kids get older they will realize the faults in this logic and raise their children to be better.

I grew up with a single parent, I was never made fun of for coming from a divorced family, this would not have been the case not to long ago.

I know I'm kinda saying "Well fuck those kids" but really unless someone has a better idea that seems like how we will have to go about this.

 

[Nemesis]

I don't doubt gay people or transgenders can be good parents, but right now I'm thinking about the social implications for the child... We can all be very understanding and rational about this, but children in school won't be. Well, atleast not the ones who bully all the others into forming their opinions accordingly.

No reason to dismiss it's legality ofcourse, but this is something to think about.

In some parts of the world black kids are bullied, would you say black people shouldn't breed? (and think a little about how good things were for the black people just decades ago)

 

[felixthecoach]

I don't doubt gay people or transgenders can be good parents, but right now I'm thinking about the social implications for the child... We can all be very understanding and rational about this, but children in school won't be. Well, atleast not the ones who bully all the others into forming their opinions accordingly.

No reason to dismiss it's legality ofcourse, but this is something to think about.

The same thought process was given to biracial couples who wanted to adopt 20 years ago.

I know someone who was almost not adopted because she is black and her parents are white. Yeah she was made fun of for being in the wrong race, but she made it. Now days, it's even more common to have mixed race families.

 

[felixthecoach]

PuppetXeno, I was thinking about what you said. I think i jumped to a conclusion. You're not saying to restrict adoptions because of this fear, but to recognize that the culture is still by and large hard on the children. This implies they will have more problems in school in the same way that, say bi-racial children and divorce children are treated. Is that what you meant? I guess that's a legitimate concern to want to help the kids through.

 

[PuppetXeno]

PuppetXeno, I was thinking about what you said. I think i jumped to a conclusion. You're not saying to restrict adoptions because of this fear, but to recognize that the culture is still by and large hard on the children. This implies they will have more problems in school in the same way that, say bi-racial children and divorce children are treated. Is that what you meant? I guess that's a legitimate concern to want to help the kids through.

Yes, that is very much what I meant, I thought I'd bring it up so people could think about it. It didn't look like anyone was going to bring up the effects on the children, so I did it - I think it's important to be aware of that.

My nieces, aged 4 and 7, receive assertivity training in their school, but this doesn't happen everywhere. This is extremely good for their social developement, I remember well how there hardly was a social net to prevent children from falling prey to ridicule and mockery. Now they do not only learn how to stand up for themselves, but they also learn why you shouldn't make fun of other people's peculiarities... Like having a different skin tone, talking in a funny accent, being deaf on one side (my youngest niece) or having gay foster parents.

 

[felixthecoach]

I think it's important to be aware of that

Said like a true sociologist!

 

[WolfAU]

Didn't vote, because like all issues worth discussion, it is hardly black and white. Without going into too much complex shit, I'll adress a few issues.
1. Many gays are emotionally disturbed (either being the cause of or caused by their homosexuality or completely external to), as such before I would allow gays to adopt I would insist they recieve a psychological evaluation.
2. I am not convinced that certain issues of overt homosexuality would not be harmful to a child, and as such would expect them to follow some guidelines on the matter.
3. Healthy psychological developement of children requires a variety of strong male and female role models in their life. As such a male homosexual couple I would expect to have some kind of regular female involvement (ie a woman friend who helps them raise it etc) and the same for lesbian couples. This could even take the form of lesbian and gay couples kind of 'pairing up' to help each other raise both sets of kids.
4. Regularly checking on the childs performance.

I think trials on the issue have some warrant, particularly if the mother/father can personally be contacted for their approval, with an initial group of them being trialed to exam how they fair compared to a heterosexual control group.

Also what is to be gained from allowing LGBT adoption? Are we arguing in favour of it because it is in the best interest of the child (ie better a gay family than a lifetime at an orphanage) or because we feel it is a basic human right to allow individuals the opportunity to adopt?

Also you list bisexuals, I think most people are not so much opposed to sexual orientation so much as their lifestyle. So a bisexual woman living monogamously with a man I cannot think of any reason why she should not adopt when a heterosexual woman should (and true of bisexual men). Which in my experience bisexual individuals tend to prefer long term relationships with the opposite sex.

Transgender or individuals who have undergone sex change operations I would be less open to the idea of them adopting I think.

 

[Aught3]

1. All prospective parents should be evaluated to ensure they aren't emotionally disturbed.
2. Which issues are you taking about? I assume that those looking to adopt would be aiming to provide a suitable and stable home environment for their new child. I doubt anything you could bring up under this point would be relevant to the vast number of homosexual parents wanting to adopt.
3. Bunk; single parents do just fine. There are plenty of opportunities for male and female influence on a child as they are growing up: teachers, coaches, a friend's parents, etc.
4. I only support this one as far as it would apply to heterosexual couples and I see no need to monitor homosexual parents with any extra scrutiny.

I think trials on the issue have some warrant, particularly if the mother/father can personally be contacted for their approval, with an initial group of them being trialed to exam how they fair compared to a heterosexual control group.

Perhaps I am mistaken but I thought this had already been done. Lesbian parents turned out to be the best for the child, I can try to look it up if you want to read about it.

Also what is to be gained from allowing LGBT adoption? Are we arguing in favour of it because it is in the best interest of the child (ie better a gay family than a lifetime at an orphanage)

Close, better to have a loving family than a life in the state's care.

 

[felixthecoach]

Many gays are emotionally disturbed...as such before I would allow gays to adopt I would insist they recieve a....

Lets look at some logic:
Some gays are psychologically disturbed (PD)
Some PD are not fit to be parents
Therefore some gays are not fit to be parents

This is not a sound logical syllogism. It does not follow logically to assume that the same gays will be the same who are PD. Additionally, we have to apply that rule to other groups as well:

Some ethnic groups are PD
Some PD are not fit to be parents
Therefore some ethnic groups are not fit
or
Some strait couples are PD
...and so on all the way out to:

Some HUMANS are PD...Yada yada

All we can do with understanding is to conclude that we might need to check EVERYONE for being PD.

I am not convinced that certain issues of overt homosexuality would not be harmful to a child, and as such would expect them to follow some guidelines on the matter

This is the most ambiguous way you can say, "There is some issue that I don't know or understand about homosexuality and even though I don't have truth, reason, or evidence on my side, I'm going to say that these homosexuals should follow some undetermined guideline."

Tell me if I'm wrong...

Healthy psychological developement of children requires a variety of strong male and female role models in their life

Wrong. Developmentalists consistently debate what it requires to "turn" a child into a healthy adult. Evidence points today to very strong correlations between consistency in their home and a safe environment.

Some evidence in the study of evolutionary psychology points to the fact that men are less valuable to reproductive success because in hunter gatherer societies, they normally did stupid things like become polygamous or die. The implication is that children would have to develop into a healthy adult independent of a male role model, even solely learning to develop with a group of peers.

The old evidence of having a male role model is slowly becoming weaker. Additionally, you're making an assumption that if a lesbian couple adopts, they will not have male friends, or vice versa for gay couples.

Regularly checking on the childs performance

I'm pretty sure this is standard during the foster/adoption phase of ALL adoptions. No reason to act like it's a new implementation for homosexual couples.

Also you list bisexuals, I think most people are not so much opposed to sexual orientation so much as their lifestyle

This is my last point. What lifestyle are you trying to imply all bisexuals have? I'm pretty sure you can't pin down any of these individuals into a specific lifestyle.

The people who are ready and willing to adopt on average and regardless of sexual orientation, ethnicity, or social hierarchy are by far much more ready for children than the overall population. This is because they have to have the income, the stability, and the training that the government requires. There is no doubt in my mind that on the whole homosexual couples are completely ready for adoption.

 

[WolfAU]

Re: Aught3
1. I agree, and wouldn't be entirely opposed to the government finding some effective and permenant form of contraception, which they lift when we apply for the right to have children, this requires having passed a basic psych evaluation etc (therefore making any parent meet certain standards of care, rather than any horny teenage couple able to have a child). Obviously this opens up abuses (ie eugenics), but would prevent children being born into horrid conditions (people clearly not fit to have children).

2. I mean that the sight of a child witnessing their two male or female parents tongue kissing may cause gender confusion in a young child and even go on to cause psychological harm (more than a straight couple), but haven't seen much evidence on the topic (how would one test this?).

3. Just because children of single parents don't go around shooting up schools or having major psychological breakdowns does not disprove the widely accepted theory that healthy child raising requires for the child to have both a mother and father figure, and yes, good teachers, friends and other people with strong influence are important. I maintain my belief that single parenting should be discouraged when valid alternatives are possible.

4. I would support extra evaluation of homosexual couples until it is generally accepted fact that homosexual couples on average raise children to be at least as well adjusted as heterosexual couples, after that point yes, in fitting with heterosexual couples level of evaluation. If you find the study you mentioned post it.

Another commonly accepted theory is that homosexuality often stems from some kind of psychological disturbance (I do not subscribe to the belief it is immutable and I think Greeks approach to pederasty is compelling evidence in favour of that), however you can say that about alot of things, ie alot of people say being gifted at art requires some level of disturbance.

re felix coach:
Any argument that something new is moral/just etc because a currently existing system is equally flawed I generally do not find compelling, and as I stated above, am not completely opposed to the idea of enforcing certain basic standards for all potential parents.

HOWEVER, heterosexual couples (regardless of ethnicity) can produce children and society has been shaped for thousands of years to support heterosexual couples raising children (see family law). Homosexual couples cannot (though a Homosexual male or female can have a biological child with another person) and as such are asking for something inherantly lacking in their arrangement. This requires the statement that 'it is a basic human right to adopt children', which I do not accept. The only reason that I can see to let gays adopt is if they do as good (or better) a job at raising children, and the children who they raised would otherwise been raised by the state system.

There is also next to no generally accepted laws regarding homosexual family structure, and when a young child is thrown into the mix, that crosses a line from '...between consenting adults' to risking the welbeing of a child.

Most evidence I have seen has supported the statement above (requiring male/female role models), if you have evidence to the contrary, please share. Furthermore I find the argument that because fathers in society tend to be more absent (as bread-winners) that this is evidence that fathers are not as important for child developed unconvincing.

Additionally, you're making an assumption that if a lesbian couple adopts, they will not have male friends, or vice versa for gay couples.

I am not making the assumption, and I said so in my previous post, that I would consider it sufficient if a male friend was to be involved, but that this is a factor that in order for me to consider the living arrangement acceptable, they would be required to keep in mind (ie like a vegetarian being conscious of their iron intake etc).