League of Treason

[ShredderIsAlive]

How do you respond to intellectual cowardice and bigotry among your ranks?





I'd also check out the following links


mp3 of of Coughlan giving thunderf00t examples of Blasphemy laws used in modern Britain.
http://www.box.net/shared/noxy66670a

Physical Conservative's blogTV session where thunderf00t tries to shift the goalposts with dlandoncole
http://www.blogtv.com/Shows/1683247/ZeTDZu7FbGFwY2XFZeZ&pos=ancr

 

[ImprobableJoe]

We don't have "ranks" here, last time I checked.

Maybe you want to explain exactly why you started what appears to be a flame-bait thread?

 

[pendulousphallus]

We don't have "ranks" here, last time I checked.

Maybe you want to explain exactly why you started what appears to be a flame-bait thread?

Ten more rep points until I level up to Junior Member!

 

[CosmicSpork]

The issue for me here is that it seems easy that people are equating Thunderf00t and the like as representing the League of Reason in its entirety. Admitedly they probably have a bit more push than most due to their popularity and exposure, but they do not represent the opinion of LoR as a whole. Not everyone here agrees with each other, there isn't always a general concensus on a subject. If Thunderf00t has done something that someone doesn't agree with, that doesn't mean that everyone in the League supports him.

If there's no mass disgruntlement at Pat Condell it's not necessarily because there aren't people who feel that way but more likely that they either don't care, or choose to ignore Pat as they don't necessarily affiliate themselves with him or his opinions whether for or against. But that is down to those people...

I'm probably missing the point, but I am getting concerned that some people think that the League is simply just a few people and we all follow their opinion without question... it's not true.

 

[ShredderIsAlive]

We don't have "ranks" here, last time I checked.

Maybe you want to explain exactly why you started what appears to be a flame-bait thread?

Flame-bait? Is that what you call a simple question? Well allow me to elaborate.

A few months back the user thunderf00t made a series of videos promoting Draw Mohammad Day. In order to gain sympathy for his cause, he resorted to using the same tactics that he made a name for himself busting theists for, and committed what could only be described as character assassination of the Muslim user DawahFilms.
Since then we've seen other members jump on the bandwagon such as FactvsReligion. She is a fan of the rantings of Islamophobic user Pat Condell and favourited his latest videos where he campaigned to defend free speech by (ironically) removing an entire group of people's free speech rights.

I along with many other YouTube users are curious to know why none of the other prominent members of the League have never once spoken out publicly against thunderf00t's frankly disgusting and obscene use of fundamentalist tactics and logical fallacies.


Specifically I mean the following members.

ZOMGitsCriss
AronRa
AndromedasWake
antybu86
Th1sWasATriumph
DonExodus2
DasAmercianAtheist
dprjones


And to address another quote. Yes thunderf00t and his clique ARE the representatives of your organisation. Who runs the YouTube channel LeagueOfReasonTV? Who hosts the BlogTV sessions under the banner of "League Of Reason"? Who is it that challenges possibly mentally challenged theists to debate the League Of Reason on these shows?

 

[Aught3]

Read this: http://www.leagueofreason.co.uk/youtube/with-regards-to-shanedk-and-masterghostknight/

Videos made by particular users are not endorsed by this site.

On your examples, I think that the youtube atheist community has done an adequate job of addressing some of the more outrageous claims made by Pat Condell and besides, he's not even a member here.

I do think you have a point about Thunderf00t though, I've started to go off his latest videos but maybe some more vocal internal criticism would be a good thing. However, surely you understand that at a forum made specifically because of youtube censorship no one is going to tell him to stop saying the things he decides to say? And even then, TFoot doesn't speak for the league of reason, the brain bulb is not an official endorsement - it is an invitation to visit.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

We don't have "ranks" here, last time I checked.

Maybe you want to explain exactly why you started what appears to be a flame-bait thread?

Flame-bait? Is that what you call a simple question? Well allow me to elaborate.

A few months back the user thunderf00t made a series of videos promoting Draw Mohammad Day. In order to gain sympathy for his cause, he resorted to using the same tactics that he made a name for himself busting theists for, and committed what could only be described as character assassination of the Muslim user DawahFilms.
Since then we've seen other members jump on the bandwagon such as FactvsReligion. She is a fan of the rantings of Islamophobic user Pat Condell and favourited his latest videos where he campaigned to defend free speech by (ironically) removing an entire group of people's free speech rights.

I along with many other YouTube users are curious to know why none of the other prominent members of the League have never once spoken out publicly against thunderf00t's frankly disgusting and obscene use of fundamentalist tactics and logical fallacies.


Specifically I mean the following members.

ZOMGitsCriss
AronRa
AndromedasWake
antybu86
Th1sWasATriumph
DonExodus2
DasAmercianAtheist
dprjones


And to address another quote. Yes thunderf00t and his clique ARE the representatives of your organisation. Who runs the YouTube channel LeagueOfReasonTV? Who hosts the BlogTV sessions under the banner of "League Of Reason"? Who is it that challenges possibly mentally challenged theists to debate the League Of Reason on these shows?

Why don't you ask the people you listed? We're a forum of people who sometimes agree, sometimes disagree, and this is a place where we discuss those issues. If you do a search here, you'll find that we've discussed issues like you have brought up. Lot's of us think Pat Condell is a giant bigot douche-nozzle. Some people agree with his stances. The same goes for T-f00tie's recent posts. We're all individuals and we all have our views. We respect people's right to free speech, and that includes speech that makes them look like ignorant jerks.

If you have a specific complaint about a specific person, what do you expect me to do about it? Can I do any more than you can? What should we do, do you think? Besides come here and on your very first post you accuse us of committing some sort of "treason" and not much else...

 

[LordCustos3]

Re: Why can't we call an asshat an asshat.

If there's no mass disgruntlement at Pat Condell it's not necessarily because there aren't people who feel that way but more likely that they either don't care, or choose to ignore Pat as they don't necessarily affiliate themselves with him or his opinions whether for or against. But that is down to those people...

I do see Shredder's point, though.
Pat and tf00t crossed a line and made all freethinkers look bad with their antics.

Re: Thunderf00t....
Nobody here gave Thunderf00t even the slightest token rebuke during his Nuke 'em All and Let Lack of God Sort 'em Out "Fire and Brimstone Preacher for Atheism" phase. He seemed to be obliquely endorsing saturation nuke genocide against the entire middle east; And when asked to clarify that this was not his position....he instead got more creepy and preachy about it.
Now, I'm no fan of Islam....and I didn't support DawahFilms' desperate need to throw gasoline onto tf00t's raging ego fire....but the petulant and childish behaviour of Thunderf00t during that debacle was embarrassing and counterproductive. It was two fundies angrily waving their ePenises and making death threats; and seeing that kind of deranged shit coming out of the second person I ever subbed to on YouTube was really soul-crushing and made me ashamed of my ideological position.
There, I said it.
I don't see why no-one else feels the need to say it as well.

 

[AsheIsTheRaven]

Been a long time since I been here. A he of a long time, but shredder's points are pretty valid ones, as though are the forums here. It's a far point that These people should not be representing the League or forums here, but in many ways they do as well. As such as they are the most prominent, they are the "figure heads" of this place. Also it is no mystery that, and I am sorry to say this, the people in the leagues Radio show do have a reputation for watching each others back. Now one could put it down to mere jealousy, but if that were the case I think many of these issues would have come up sooner, rarther than now. It's not liek their wasnt ample opportunity

Crackergate, Draw Mohammad Day, TF's treatment of Dawah Films, whilst in themselves raised many an eyebrow as to how the IDs (forgive my Freudian analogy) were clearly superseding the Super Ego. Even Piro, though with poor taste, did in his little game show a level of arrogance from a few of these individuals that is utterly ridiculous. When one of these people comes on to your channel and openly says, you are nothing more than a mosquito, And I can swat you, you do begin to wonder how far these so called champions of "reason" will go. Saying in one hand you support freedom of speech even if it offends, then in another champion a bill that denies individuals the rights you demand for yourself also raises eyebrows. And really, Thunderfoot bought this down on himself. Let's face it, the radio show whilst interesting is really a bunch of atheists feeding of each other, or bating one poorly educated theist. It's not like you've offered anything fresh to this show. Also Thunderfoot's commentary about Richard only compounded not only the level of contempt some of these people have to anyone who might disagree with them, but not being able to have the courage to take on an equally educated man and then make a demand to remove him before he came back to the discussion only shows a level of intellectual dishonesty and fear on Thunderfoot's part. Like Richard said, it's easy to debate the morons, but it says something if you can't debate the competent. I think perhaps a mature discussion on this issue is definitely in order

 

[TheFlyingBastard]

How do you respond to intellectual cowardice and bigotry among your ranks?

I say, good luck to the people in question when they're called on their bullshit.

Does that answer your question?

(Also, lol, "Treason"? Did you even try to make sense in that thread title?)

 

[LordCustos3]

Let me get on a pedestal for a second and pontificate about those three debacles Ash mentioned.

Crackergate: Utter nontroversy. A force 5 hurricane in a tiny teapot. The real shame of that incident was that anyone actually gave a crap.

Draw Mohammad Day: It was strategically bad in the long run because of the tightening of censorship in Pakistan....and it gave unintentional cachet to bigots and trolls...
But, the one thin ray of sunshine was how the whole Muslim world was unmasked twice by their reactions to it.
1) There threats were proven to be utterly toothless.
2) They tried to stir up a counter-protest called "Let's Draw the Holocaust Day"....which passed by with a collective yawn of total indifference.

TF's treatment of Dawah Films: It was "Let's Draw Mohammad Day" on a small scale....
1) The Filthy Filthy Kuffah makes an ass out of himself with what appears to be a cosmic scale death threat.
2) The most charismatic Muslim on YouTube* switches from smearing the universe in a thin layer of Taqqiyah to make an ass of himself....with an, albiet smaller scale, death threat.
3) Everybody demands that both parties apologize so that we can talk about this with some semblance of decorum.
4) Both Dawah and tf00t instead act like bigger douches.
5) LordCustos3 defriends/unsubscribes from both.
6) Dawah tries to transform "Let's Draw Mohammad Day" into "Let's Do Amatuer Calligraphy of the Prophet's Name in Arabic Day"; which, though silly, was somewhat more civil.
7) Dawah follows this with "Hate's Magic Mirror" a creepy 12 1/2 minute long video where he imitates the most rabid Wa'hhabist Jihad-monger on Earth for 12 minutes and 15 seconds....followed by the most weaksauce "just kidding!" I've ever seen.
8) Thunderfoot make his "Stepping on the Pedohammad Flag" video. Becomes even more enamoured of his own Messiah of Atheism Status.

The TL;DR version: Dicks. The Both of them.

....gets off pedestal.

* Note= No, Not baadshah142!

 

[AsheIsTheRaven]

Let me get on a pedestal for a second and pontificate about those three debacles Ash mentioned.

Crackergate: Utter nontroversy. A force 5 hurricane in a tiny teapot. The real shame of that incident was that anyone actually gave a crap.

Draw Mohammad Day: It was strategically bad in the long run because of the tightening of censorship in Pakistan....and it gave unintentional cachet to bigots and trolls...
But, the one thin ray of sunshine was how the whole Muslim world was unmasked twice by their reactions to it.
1) There threats were proven to be utterly toothless.
2) They tried to stir up a counter-protest called "Let's Draw the Holocaust Day"....which passed by with a collective yawn of total indifference.

TF's treatment of Dawah Films: It was "Let's Draw Mohammad Day" on a small scale....
1) The Filthy Filthy Kuffah makes an ass out of himself with what appears to be a cosmic scale death threat.
2) The most charismatic Muslim on YouTube* switches from smearing the universe in a thin layer of Taqqiyah to make an ass of himself....with an, albiet smaller scale, death threat.
3) Everybody demands that both parties apologize so that we can talk about this with some semblance of decorum.
4) Both Dawah and tf00t instead act like bigger douches.
5) LordCustos3 defriends/unsubscribes from both.
6) Dawah tries to transform "Let's Draw Mohammad Day" into "Let's Do Amatuer Calligraphy of the Prophet's Name in Arabic Day"; which, though silly, was somewhat more civil.
7) Dawah follows this with "Hate's Magic Mirror" a creepy 12 1/2 minute long video where he imitates the most rabid Wa'hhabist Jihad-monger on Earth for 12 minutes and 15 seconds....followed by the most weaksauce "just kidding!" I've ever seen.
8) Thunderfoot make his "Stepping on the Pedohammad Flag" video. Becomes even more enamoured of his own Messiah of Atheism Status.

The TL;DR version: Dicks. The Both of them.

....gets off pedestal.

* Note= No, Not baadshah142!

To a certain degree I agree with all of that as well. Irony is we have to look at this in many lights

 

[AndromedasWake]

Re: Why can't we call an asshat an asshat.

Contrary to the opinions of the OP, League of Reason members are people with (active) forum accounts, because League of Reason is an open web community, not a clique or exclusionist group or think tank. The LoR Show panel does not set the policy of any "organisation".

There are very few people who could be argued to be representatives of LoR, myself one of them. However the term is misleading, because whilst I may represent the website as its administrator, I do not and could not possibly represent every member. The views/opinions and knowledge base are just far too broad. Likewise, Thunderf00t does not represent League of Reason, he's just a scientist with a good grasp on creationist arguments.

As for the show itself, we do not screen callers for the most moronic. William Lane Craig is welcome to call in (I believe he has actually been contacted as well) as is anyone else who wants to use science to promote religious arguments, or doesn't understand science. There are many people out there who are purported to be intelligent creationists. No one is stopping them. We have also made efforts to reach out to YouTube's most prominent apologists (including Togetherforpeace) who are regarded as making somewhat more "sophisticated" arguments than your average creationist.

I make a point of not running my mouth on topics outside of my field of expertise. I have friends who've studied international relations to the same degree I've studied astrophysics, and I'm aware that my knowledge of politics is about as offensive to them as hearing people with no knowledge talk about the Big Bang and advanced cosmological concepts is to me.

Thunderf00t's videos on politics and Islam are of no interest to me. I do not trust that I will learn anything from them in the same way that I will from his scientific videos. I was extremely disappointed with his approach to Draw Muhammad Day, and made that known to him in very blunt terms. On this we must agree to disagree.

I would never impose on any YouTuber any obligation to make any video. What they make the focus of their channel is up to them, and mine is about debunking creationists, theistic apologetics, promoting astronomy and encouraging people to take a stand for free speech on YouTube. I may or may not broaden the scope of my channel in the future. I haven't decided yet. My channel is not about drama, starting endless back-and-forths with other users, or ambiguously generalising all Muslims as being anti-free speech or violent terrorists.

Any "deafening silence" you hear from me will always be the result of either not signing in for a while, and being unaware of events (a la the Rozeboosh situation), or apathy (a la Pat Condell/Dawahf00t). It is not due to censorship or cowardice.

Lastly, just because I get on with a particular user, or support one aspect of their philosophy does not mean I fully and completely endorse them, and pat them on the back at every opportunity.

 

[AsheIsTheRaven]

Well the irony in this here is the level of hypocrisy, and please don't think I am calling you a hypocrite. I tend to think better of you, just the situation seems "hypocritical" to me. It's kinda one sided to demand and criticize "the other side" for not speaking out when they see abuse or bigotry then damn the rest of us when we feel we have to do the same with "our side"

Damn I hate that, taking sides... but I think that's the issue

 

[AndromedasWake]

Well the irony in this here is the level of hypocrisy, and please don't think I am calling you a hypocrite. I tend to think better of you, just the situation seems "hypocritical" to me. It's kinda one sided to demand and criticize "the other side" for not speaking out when they see abuse or bigotry then damn the rest of us when we feel we have to do the same with "our side"

Damn I hate that, taking sides... but I think that's the issue

I'm not sure if you're responding to me, but I do not criticise "the other side" for not speaking out. I directly criticise the people who speak out garbage (ie. the creationists/apologists). I do not for example criticise the more reasonable theists for not damning the creationists. They are free to do what they like.

We might as well stick with the topic at hand: Islam. This is where TF made sweeping generalisations and sensationalised his videos to an almost cringe-worthy degree. I disagree with him on almost every point, including the suggestion that moderate Muslims do not speak out against extremism. On the contrary, I know for a fact that many moderates criticise extremists, and I also appreciate the difficulties in doing so when considering your safety if you live in a more extreme Islamic state.

Lastly, Thunderf00t is only "on my side" when it comes to science and atheism. I disagree with his political views and his approach to Islam in general. It is very easy to assume that people who agree on one topic agree on all, but if you just ask me, dprjones, DonExodus2, AronRa and others who have appeared on the show to clarify our views, I am always happy to do so and I am confident they will be too.

I am usually about a week behind on my PMs, but I do get through them eventually.

 

[TheFlyingBastard]

Well the irony in this here is the level of hypocrisy, and please don't think I am calling you a hypocrite. I tend to think better of you, just the situation seems "hypocritical" to me.

Well, let me put it this way.
How many people from the LoR can you name that are hypocritical like that?

I don't see the whole problem, honestly. Nobody has ever said people from the LoR Show could never be douchebags, and nobody pretended they were anything more than human. Sure, no points for style, but meh. Never let one member - no matter how vocal - reflect their image on the larger crowd. (fallacy of composition and such)

I'm not going to the CARM forums, create a thread called "HARM" and ask the forum members "How do you respond to willful ignorance and bigotry within your ranks?" because Matt Slick and his ilk are creating atheist concentration camps on their forums and are using logical fallacies in their propaganda. It's silly.

 

[LordCustos3]

....and sensationalised his videos to an almost cringe-worthy degree.

Almost? Wow. That's a pretty big understatement.
Thunderf00t came of like the second coming of Doctor Orpheus in those videos.

Nobody has ever said people from the LoR Show could never be douchebags

Ah, but we have a higher standard to uphold. We're not only supposed to have our facts straight, but we're supposed to be more civilized and less crazy.
Keeping our cool throws the incivility and batshitness of the Racist/Fundie/Creationist DMCA Dork into sharper relief and makes the fence-sitters less likely to be swayed by nonsense.
We are supposed to be The League of Reason, damnit!
Being Irrational, Illogical and Fundamentalist for the bad guys is par for the course.
Being Irrational, Illogical and Fundamentalist for the LoR, is not only bad PR, and not gives cachet to wingnuts and moonbats and whackjobs, it turns us all....by association...into smug hypocrites.

 

[borrofburi]

Re: Why can't we call an asshat an asshat.

Re: Thunderf00t....
Nobody here gave Thunderf00t even the slightest token rebuke during his Nuke 'em All and Let Lack of God Sort 'em Out "Fire and Brimstone Preacher for Atheism" phase. He seemed to be obliquely endorsing saturation nuke genocide against the entire middle east; And when asked to clarify that this was not his position....he instead got more creepy and preachy about it.
Now, I'm no fan of Islam....and I didn't support DawahFilms' desperate need to throw gasoline onto tf00t's raging ego fire....but the petulant and childish behaviour of Thunderf00t during that debacle was embarrassing and counterproductive. It was two fundies angrily waving their ePenises and making death threats; and seeing that kind of deranged shit coming out of the second person I ever subbed to on YouTube was really soul-crushing and made me ashamed of my ideological position.
There, I said it.
I don't see why no-one else feels the need to say it as well.

Meh, I guess this was the set of videos I thought looked too boring to bother watching. Guess I didn't miss anything.

 

[TheFlyingBastard]

Nobody has ever said people from the LoR Show could never be douchebags

Ah, but we have a higher standard to uphold. We're not ... into smug hypocrites.

I realize that, but it seems that the moment one of the co-hosts on the podcast slips up, people are pouncing on it and posting threads on these forums. I'm just saying it's a sign of weakness of mindboggling proportions if all you can do is fire one ad hom at a podcast co-host because he is human...

 

[borrofburi]

Ah, but we have a higher standard to uphold. We're not ... into smug hypocrites.

I realize that, but it seems that the moment one of the co-hosts on the podcast slips up, people are pouncing on it and posting threads on these forums. I'm just saying it's a sign of weakness of mindboggling proportions if all you can do is fire one ad hom at a podcast co-host because he is human...

Thanks for this, I couldn't find a way to say something like this without exaggerating; but it's a general trend I've been noticing lately on the boards as well (and not just aimed at those on the blog tv show).