League of Treason

[AsheIsTheRaven]

It isn't arrogance, but words you yourself posted.

I stated that I see no reason to treat TF as a leper. He has made excellent contributions to the community.
It is proper that his lapse be brought to his attention.
It is neither proper nor necessary that he be abused for it.

You require inerrency. Let's not confuse the matter by attributing your expectations to something lesser, like "consistency."
Were consistency the issue, there were be no issue.

If you say so, but I know what I meant and obviously so do you. And I don't rightly care what you think of my tone or owe you any clarification of what I already said, as you feel you owe me nothing but telling me what you think I meant.

DPR Does nothing but write a good yarn for a 1 post member, but eventually ends up saying absolutely nothing which kinda proved my earlier point

 

[AndromedasWake]

I'm not addressing anyone in particular here, but please keep this discussion as levelheaded as you can be when dealing with someone you think is offensively wrong.

If there is a solution to be found, the search won't be aided by people getting even more shitty with each other.

 

[AsheIsTheRaven]

Much better in big red letters.

Basically what I am saying is DPR did nothing but use lawyer talk to say absolutely nothing new except, "I won't hold my friends to the same standards I demand of others"

 

[Gnug215]

[Lots of stuff.]

Ok, so this time you managed to miss/ignore two of my posts to you, and instead you kept bumping heads with lrkun, and taking conversation in new directions.

Am I that easy to ignore or uninteresting, or something else?

(In case you were wondering...
http://forums.leagueofreason.org.uk/viewtopic.php?p=72719#p72719
And
http://forums.leagueofreason.org.uk/viewtopic.php?p=73016#p73016 )

 

[Gnug215]

Hi ShredderIsAlive,

To your response:

To address your points.

First, it seems like you have a genuine desire to be taken seriously. And yet you persist in the rather silly and immature "League of Treason" thing. It will not get people to take you seriously. I assume you already know this, so I wonder why you do persist.

Frankly as I outlined in my video, I refuse to call them by the League Of Reason moniker. I think it's an insult to the word reason.

Yes, you made your reasons clear in your video, but you didn't really respond to my points.

Perhaps in a show of maturity and compromise, you could say "LoR". Just an idea.

Also, what you're calling an insult to the word reason is an Internet forum with some 5000+ members, not some united entity or organization.

Second, you mention FactsVSreligion. I don't think she's ever had anything to do with this site. Her only connection to the show as far as I can tell was when she was visiting TF, while he was doing a show.

Her videos are frequently endorsed by the inner clique that I mentioned. Yet they ignore her bigotry towards religion and as I've lately discovered sexuality.

I haven't seen much of that endorsement, to be honest. And again, you're trating LoR like some kind of organization. AW is really the only one that has any real connection to LoR, and he's never endorsed her.
I haven't seen many of her vids, so I can't really judge about her, but it seems to me as you're making yourself a judge on what is reasonable or not. Oh, and I'm sure you'd think that ironic coming from a member of LoR, but LoR makes no such claims. Remember, the title is mostly facetious.

Third, you seem to be going under the assumption that when TF was talking about the "sleeping giant" in that vid to Dawah, TF was somehow endorsing and threatening genocide. Perhaps the issue whether or not that is actually the case should be discussed first? All your ire and anger seems to hinge on that fact.
I for one did not perceive TF's words in that manner. I would think if it were so obviously an endorsement of genocide, more people would have reacted. Would you really think that TF endorsing the genocide of... about 2 billion people would have gone unnoticed and uncontested? Perhaps that IS what you are thinking?

The endorsement of genocide and the demonisation of the entire religious group of Islam was not unnoticed. Numerous other users as well as myself saw this quote for the ignorant and dangerous hate speech that it was. I was particularly disgusted with TF's lack of ability to even see that he was giving credence towards racists and bigots, as was evidenced by the tidal wave of abuse that was posted on DawahFilms channel after TF made his death threat claim.

No, it wasn't unnoticed, but surprisingly few noticed it, if it is supposed to have been so egregious as you seem to think. The guy has what, 80k+ subs? I'd have expected a veritable outcry from a majority of his subs if that were the case.
I took his message as being directed and fundies. Perhaps on second visitation after some people (UNFFWildcard, to be specific) complained about it, it wasn't so unambiguously clear, but there was NO doubt the first time in my mind that it was aimed at extremists who would kill in the name of their religion to silence critics. Perhaps I was influenced by context? The context being that TF had always been vehemently yelling about free speech - and he had never expressed any bigotry before (not that it was, as I saw it). Did he generalize? Sure, but since the context was clear to me, I was never in doubt as to whom he was directing his message.
Anyway... I may seem to be defending TF here, but I'm not. I'm just telling you how I perceived that video. I personally didn't like the video, nor have I really liked any of the non-scientific stuff TF has done... so perhaps I just haven't paid enough attention to get what you get out of those vids?

Lastly, TF doesn't really post on this site, he's just a member on the BlogTV show panel. To claim that he is representing LoR is not fair or accurate. The issue, as I then see it, is whether or not AW needs to boycott TF from the show, publically denounce him and all his actions, and demand all LoR members do the same.

I'm thinking... no.

I'm not suggesting a boycott. You are. And I;m not demanding anyone publicly denounces him. My only point was why don't the clique who for the better part criticise Muslim moderates for not speaking out against the actions of the extremists (an accusation that lacks any merit), practice what they preach and speak out against this kind of bullshit when it's blatantly being done in front of them.

All I want is a little consistency.

I think it's clear that the "clique" don't see things the same way you do. Again, if TF had been endorsing genocide of some 2 billion people, do you think they would have let it slip?

Incidentally, I disagree slightly on your point about the accusation about moderates not speaking out against extremists lacking ANY merit. It is probably partly the medias fault, but we rarely do see a lot of moderates criticising the extremists. You mentioned somewhere that one only had to go look for it oneself, but I would think many people expect such criticism to be so vocal and overwhelming that it WOULD appear in the media.
Also, people may feel the criticism of extremists isn't enough. That's a matter of taste, I guess, but you could say it raises the question about how much criticism one could/should actually expect.
You also mentioned IRA and Westboro Baptist Church not being criticised enough, and no one criticising the Christian moderates for not speaking out against those more. Again, I have a different experience there. I remember a fair bit of criticism on that, but I also remember others complaining about the Christian moderates for not speaking out. So basically, I disagree with your somewhat black and white description of this issue.

Lastly, you didn't address the edited part of my message, which I feel is fairly central to this entire discussion.

There seem to be some basic elements in this debate that people are working from, and we fundamentally disagree on those elements, so we end up talking past each other.

I'll list them here:

1 - TF's mistakes:
We disagree fundamentally on how grave they are.

2 - What LoR is:
It's not an organization or some atheist church.

3 - What LoR should be doing about the situation:
If you hold my view on points 1 and 2, then nothing, and I hope it's clear why.


I hope that covers everything for now.

 

[AsheIsTheRaven]

[Lots of stuff.]

Ok, so this time you managed to miss/ignore two of my posts to you, and instead you kept bumping heads with lrkun, and taking conversation in new directions.

Am I that easy to ignore or uninteresting, or something else?

(In case you were wondering...
http://forums.leagueofreason.org.uk/viewtopic.php?p=72719#p72719
And
http://forums.leagueofreason.org.uk/viewtopic.php?p=73016#p73016 )

when one is in the middle of an argument it's had to pay attention to every post that may or may not be directly related to me. I work from the very same computer so I apologize if my attention span is on my work primarily and on this forum as a matter of passing, please do not take it personally. The nature of my job is that I work all the spare hours I get

 

[TheFlyingBastard]

So I woke up this morning and logged onto the LoR forums.

That title banner made my day.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

League of TREASON?

Suck on it! SUCK ON IT!!!

 

[Gnug215]

when one is in the middle of an argument it's had to pay attention to every post that may or may not be directly related to me. I work from the very same computer so I apologize if my attention span is on my work primarily and on this forum as a matter of passing, please do not take it personally. The nature of my job is that I work all the spare hours I get

It's understandable. I didn't take it personal. The slight tone of irritation in my post had more to do with the fact that you and lrkun were sending this thread soaring ahead like crazy with, I'm sorry to say, mostly pointless posts.

Anyway, I hope my posts made some clarifications.

 

[DeathofSpeech]

Much better in big red letters.

Basically what I am saying is DPR did nothing but use lawyer talk to say absolutely nothing new except, "I won't hold my friends to the same standards I demand of others"

"God's bodkin, man, much better: use every man after his dessert, and who shall scape whipping..." Hamlet

 

[LordCustos3]

Oh, wow.
What an interesting and subtle change to the Title Banner.

 

[Nautyskin]

Time for some completely random words:

Some people simply want others to respond to what they say, holding only a cursory interest in the merit of the arguments being made. Generating dialogue is the ultimate goal, and, while I understand there is nothing intrinsically wrong with this, and that it's something that a number of people do enjoy, it's not something I value, and, seemingly, it's behavior a lot of people don't seem to realize even exists.

If they did .. well .. what page is this thread up to now?


Moving on, and perhaps others should, too.

 

[Womble]

Oooohhhh........an open letter you say? How wondrous, here's my reply! For a general note my stuff will be in lovely normal font like this, Chedd.......er......I mean Shredders will be in italics

Also for anyone not used to my style of posting read to the end as there's always a plan to how I do things, and if anyone is ever unsure about what intonation I'm using go for playful/benign sarcasm, because if I really wanted to be rude to someone I'm more than capable of being so in a very straight forward way

My full response to the forums and "The League"

An Open Letter To The League Of Treason.

Hello Ladies and Gentlemen. And FactsvsReligion. It's your friend the Shredder here.

Umm....Hi, I didn't realise we were friends......having never met you before and all that. Also why would you need to single out one person, especially one that's never been here? Curious Womble's need to know....

After my last two videos about your little clique, and lets not kid ourselves that it's anything other than that.

Ummm....hello? As many people have said already LoR isn't a clique, hell even the people from chat that Skype together fairly regularly (me included) keep checking random newbie's for Skype contacts. So no cliques there mate.

You're the ones that promote the website, promote the shows, host the shows and challenge creationists to call in and debate. You are the public faces of the League Of Treason.

You know, if you really want to piss off the membership of a forum this is actually a good way to go about it, so congratulations. I'm guessing it probably wasn't so way to go, you've annoyed me enough to drag me out of my 'mostly lurker' status on the forum to give you a piece of my mind. I'll also say that your asinine use of the league of treason might be more entertaining if a bunch of those of us from chat hadn't already used that some months back as the name for one of our group convos on Skype following some attempts at humour that got a little out of hand in chat and 2 of the group getting temp bans from chat. Is this important? Perhaps not but at least it shows that we can acknowledge when we've goofed, even if we immediately made a joke out of it.

I've had responses from four of your members. The rest have come from the League Of Reason chat forums where if anything certain members seem to have proven they have no idea what the word Reason actually means. So to address them first.

Just four? Fail, there have been more than that responding to you, and that's because LoR is NOT just the big names you see kicking about on YT. Fine the forums might have been inspired by their collective efforts but that does not make THEM the League of Reason, the league is a loose connection of people that like to gather to discuss things reasonable and also to have a laugh and a joke with like minded people. So get over yourself. Also, do you mean LoR chat or the forums? I ask this as there is a slight difference between the members that regularly use chat and regularly peruse the forums. We all generally know what the word reason means and from my experience we all mostly behave in a fairly reasonable fashion here in the LoR community. Maybe the responses to this thread would be more 'reasonable' as you seem to desire if the things you were talking about/complaining about were reasonable in and of themselves. But I'll get to that.

Firstly, I did not post the topic on your forums to simply start a "flame war" as it's been suggested. Nor have I attempted to run away from the debate.

So you post something that's going to get peoples backs up, it creates a long discussion in which your absence is noticed and then you grumble when peoples suspicions are raised and voiced. Ok, sounds very fair to me.....oh really, it does....see, I even have my sincere face on. The site has been subjected to post and runs before so you can't fault us for being cautious.

As you may be unaware I actually work a full time job so am usually away from my computer 16 hours a day.

OHMYGODREALLY?ITHOUGHTIWASTHEONLYONE!!!!! I mean seriously, do you think we're all either unemployed bums or students on this site, I'd say most of the membership here have a job of some description or another and I'd say a fair few of those to most are likely to be full time jobs. So you know we all have lives too.....although to be fair we do have one suspected hobo, but we accept him. It just leaves me thinking you need to get over your own self importance and realise that we have lives too, and oddly they don't revolve around you.

Therefore I really don't have time to reply to every comment made in response.

*yawn*

I also was not addressing the entire LoR chat forum.

Then what's with the open letter? And again with the chat/forum confusion, with such a poorly defined generalisation and the open letter, posted ON the forums that we can all access on the site you expect us not to respond? If you have a beef with an individual bring it up with them not the whole site. You can do that via PM's or slapping 'FAO: Person I want to bitch about' in the thread title.

As mentioned earlier, the clique of YouTube's freethinkers I've named in a previous video, are the ones publicly representing the League and promoting and hosting the shows.

You mentioned that this is a transcript of the vids you'd previously just linked to, since this is now text and you've done a very shoddy job of IDing the people so far it would have helped a lot if you'd edited the transcript to stick the names in. And whilst they may well promote LoR to encourage any new or curious subs to check LoR out THEY DON'T REPRESENT LOR. (Caps for emphasis). That point has hopefully been repeated enough now that it will have sunk in.

They call themselves the League Of Reason and as such that is what I will address this group as. If you choose to look at this as an attack on an entire forum then that's your issue, not mine.

No, they just use LoR based images to associate themselves with the LoR or ID them as members/promoters of the site, you've failed to realise this. By stomping in here acting like they represent us YOU are making this an issue that tars everyone on the site with the same brush. How about you direct this at the people you specifically have a beef with and not this community as a while.

Secondly, AsheIsTheRaven and LordCustos3 are not sock puppet accounts of mine. They are also YouTube users and completely seperate entities from yours truly. It may have escaped your advanced reasoning abilities but there are people out there that genuinely support my arguments against the clique that runs the League Of Treason and are willing to argue the case, regardless of whether or not I'm there to participate in the debate.

Cute, going in for an insult because people raised an issue that could have been a valid issue (it is on some other forums I poke about on). I'll repeat this again as it's been mentioned here and I'm going for thorough, there is no clique in LoR, and your bastardisation of the name is pointless and inappropriate. You are showing a child like simplification here, and before you whinge about it I'm basing this on the fact I've got lots of experience of kids and how they think about these things.

Thirdly, I refer to the clique as the League Of Treason because the moniker they have chosen to use is self aggrandizing, hollow and intellectually bankrupt given the action by some of their members and the lack thereof by the rest.

This point has been raised, but what the hell I'll raise it again. The name League of Reason was derived from a joke, not a nasty one but a mild poking of fun at a bunch of people that you seem to be entirely fitting into..... I'll even get you a link because that's how awesome I am.

Original: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci3INHJSeIk

Redux: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1S1ffoqQvM

In fact I was double awesome and got you two. Maybe, if you watch them both, the point will sink in. But I'll not hold my breath.

And finally to the forums I did not make those videos or post them to the site simply to gain views. Certain subscribers who read my bulletin post about 2 weeks ago know that I actually turned down the offer of a YouTube partnership. I have also turned down YouTube's offer of revenue share for my video that's so far incited the biggest response "Bigotry is League Of Reason approved!"

So now you get to us, are we allowed to respond or should we just wait for those that you think represent us? Oh, I can't decide....I'd best go seek LoR clique approval!! But seriously now, you think this buy's you and kudos with the forum and chat aspects of LoR, I mean come on. You think we even care about you turning down a partnership to YouTube? Personally I'd have thought getting a few pennies in your pocket for the effort you've put into making something, even if it's only because you enjoy doing it, would be a good thing. But that's just me.

The purpose of the video was to voice my disgust at said clique. It's my view that the only opinion that doesn't make a difference is the one that goes unexpressed. And the reason it was posted to the forum was to grab their attention on the site they promote so that the PMs I sent were not simply dismissed as junk, or those of some random crank.

This is not the clique you are looking for... Seriously, the closest thing there is to a LoR clique is the Skyping that goes on, but even that is not a clique. Hell if there's any member of LoR that reads this, see's there's some Skype action that they've not heard about and wants to join in they are MORE than welcome to PM me their Skype ID and I'll add them and we can mix them into the Skype group as and when they're online and we're chatting. Now how in hell can that be a clique when I've just given it an open invite? And before you start going on about not being the clique you mean you've already been told there is no clique and when I called into the LoR show AW even outed me as being a regular LoR veteran to however many people were listening into the show at that time.

Now we have that out of the way, I think it's time we address what the League Of Treason themselves had to say. I've so far had responses via YouTube PMs from Th1sWasATriumph, antybu86 and dprjones, with AndromedasWake taking part in the forum discussion. The only comment that wasn't productive was Th1sWasATriumph's which read as follows.

So now we get to the specifics of who you are bitching about. Bear in mind that your vague and hand wavey association means that even those you don't have a beef with specifically are getting their 2p's worth across, if you don't like it then you should have been more specific. And of those listed AW is the only one that can take any claim at speaking for LoR as it's his site, even if TWAT came up with the name. Speaking of which lets move along....

"I think you've got the wrong guy. I'm not involved in anything called the League of . . . Treason, was it?"

Well Triumph, I think I have got the right person because you are part of the League Of Treason. Or would you prefer I called you the Clique Of Treason instead?

So he uses some humour and you fail to get it. And you again fall back to your now sad and tired league of treason piffle. How lacking in imagination.....

But the rest of the responses have two common themes. You seem to think I want you to speak out against Pat Condell. dprjones wrote
"I have never subscribed to his channel. I have only watched a number of his videos. I do not support his views. Obviously it is not possible to respond to everything and everyone on you tube that I disagree with."

Well, you do seem to have been frothing at the mouth over the Pat Condell issue. Which by the way I've recently unsubbed to, I've not made an issue of it as I don't see the point, I did used to find his stuff entertaining and I no longer don't. I know other Leaguers are still subbed to him but each to their own; I'm not going to get shirty with them for it. But meh, let's see what else is written....

Antybu86 wrote
"In your video, "Bigotry is League Of Reason approved!" you go on about how there's a "deafening silence" from people who are involved with the League of Reason on the Pat Condell issue... but in the very last episode from Sunday I explicitly stated that I thought it was a bad thing that Condell was one of the top YouTube atheists (in fact, I said specifically that I think he should reply to videos Coughlan has done). I also had favorited Rith's video about Pat (but you only mention the fact that FvR favorited Pat's video)."

Wow, you can quote people, fascinating...... Again, the point comes up about understanding. If you find it odd that people thought you wanted them to rant and rave about this then maybe that's the impression you gave them. I'd advise that you go back, review what you said and then have a quick think.

and AndromedasWake said
"Any "deafening silence" you hear from me will always be the result of either not signing in for a while, and being unaware of events (a la the Rozeboosh situation), or apathy (a la Pat Condell/Dawahf00t). It is not due to censorship or cowardice."

You know, as I type this I do wonder if you are expecting these people to have some kind of universal one size fits all approved atheist view on stuff. They're all individuals, they'll have different views, and some might be similar to yours, others vastly different. It's the fact we can all meet here to share them that makes this place great.

Perhaps I was unclear with my video so I will clarify now as simply as I can. I do not give a flying fuck whether or not you make responses against Pat Condell. Pat is not a member of your clique and doesn't perpetuate the idea that he's willingly to openly debate anyone on the issues he discusses.
My problem is with a member of your inner circle, FactvsReligion endorsing this kind of bigotry from him, and even worse thunderf00t actually espousing that same kind of bigotry, And with thunderf00t in particular you seem to give him free reign to be as disgustingly bigoted as he pleases with no scrutiny whatsoever.

No perhaps about it mate, you WERE unclear, hence why I suggested above that you go over what you said and check for how you can improve it next time you raise a similar issue. And again I'm going to restate what others have said...FACTVSRELIGION IS NOT A MEMBER OF LOR (caps for emphasis). She and TF may well be getting up to who care what but that doesn't make her a member of the community here, you are clasping at straws in some sort of desperate attempt to pick a fight, again I make my comparison to simplification a la child. In addition TF has kicked about on the site, but not for a very long time....see I have evidence and everything <@Reezn> AngryWomble: thunderf00t was last seen quitting "Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client" on #lor (307d 46m 48s ago). So as you can see he's such an active member of the site that he is really able to speak about what the rest of us on LoR think.

Oh and purely for giggles is you read this and go into chat copy and paste this in and see what you get '!search closet creationist', it's clearly tongue in cheek and something that amuses me.

But back on topic now.....if any of the active member of the forums or chat users went through such a drastic change as TF did in the vids in question they would be called in it, why haven't the grass roots members of LoR called TF on it.......oh right, he doesn't come here anymore. I'll say that again with caps to see if that point can be really nailed across.....HE DOENS'T COME HERE ANY MORE. Clear? Well we'll see on that front.

The second common theme was to try and claim that you have indeed already spoken out with dprjones video "Why I disagree with Thunderf00t". dprjones also wrote

Well as I said above he's not been on the forums or in chat that I could express my personal disapproval with him, and I fail to see how he'd respond to a YT PM from me on the issue. And I'm in much the same position as many other LoR regs that might have disagreed with him, and if memory serves it was discussed at the time and I wasn't the only person with misgivings.

You do some more quoting which I'm not going to even stick here as I'm moving on to your next point.

While I have been unable to find any videos of these shows I have spoken to Physical Conservative, and he did confirm that you are indeed telling the truth. However, to suggest your response to thunderf00t on YouTube where he was doing most of if not all of the damage, was a critical response would be laughable at best.

So just because he didn't reply in the way YOU think he should he's at fault, yeah....good one. Dpr dealt with this himself so I'm just going to move on to your next little gem.

Allow me to summarise your video as best I can while using direct quotes. Links are also in the description.

In dprjones video he states that the main theme of thunderf00t's videos is freedom of speech, but agrees on the following criticisms of thunderf00t.
1. thunderf00t appears to be addressing all Muslims rather than just the extremists.
regarding this dprjones said "I agree. That does appear to be the case. In my view he could have been more careful in his choice of words."

2. He is not likely to convert moderate Muslims with this style of rhetoric and video.
dpr's response was "I agree. But this was NOT the purpose of the videos. The purpose of the videos, so far as I can see was to support freedom of speech."

and finally, He (thunderf00t) did not convey his message with sufficient clarity.
dprjones response "I agree. In my view his message could have been encompassed in much shorter form. If you do not stand up to the potential dangers of the erosion of the rights that you currently enjoy, then don't turn around later and whinge and whine when they've gone. Do not allow yourself to be intimidated not to speak your mind. If you are frightened to stand up against it, then it will happen again. Thunderf00t has the balls to stand up against it. Do You?"

So he correctly identifies the main fault and you're still not happy?

In my opinion this video does nothing except excuse thunderf00t for all of his actions. In thunderf00t's videos he blames ALL Muslims for the handful of fundamentalist psychopaths who carry out the terrorist acts that he displays images of to drive home his point. To suggest that he simply didn't choose his words carefully when even after this he never clarified that his anger and bile was towards Muslim fundamentalist extremists and not all Muslims is a bad joke.
In his videos he even in my opinion and the opinion of others practically endorses genocide in retaliation to the actions of a few terrorists. And I quote

So DPr's friend made a mistake, and you want him to publicly rip him a new one? That's not friendship in my book, and before you bleat on about it my book also includes calling your friends on serious mistakes. Now personally I really didn't care for these vids on Muslims/Islam and I really would like to think that TF is mature enough to do some manner of public retraction, however to my eyes both he and Dawah are equally as culpable in this situation as they both got involved with what is a video slapping match. And come on, let's face it, this is the internet.....aside from a few instances what goes on here is mostly a bunch of random stuff that doesn't have a lot of consequence with the outside world, so a little perspective........which given that you had to state that you had the wonders of a full time job that meant you couldn't reply on our demand I shouldn't need to point out to you......or should I?

From the video South Park vs Islam

"The rift between the prowess of the first world and the advanced warriors of Islam on the battlefield, can be put in no lesser terms than the contrast between ants and Gods....."

"But let's say that all your box cutters, and shooting and stabbing unarmed filmmakers you actually manage to threaten the enlightened world. And I mean threatened beyond crashing a few airliners. Your only achievement will have been to awaken a sleeping giant, and to have filled it with a terrible resolve. If you're gonna pray to Allah for anything, beg him that you never meet the giant in such a mood."

Thunderf00t also put on the screen at this point the following sentence.

'Shock n awe' was merely the giant's irresponsible child playing with kid gloves.

But to continue his quote
"For your continued existence is entirely at the discretion and goodwill of the giant. And that it is all that stands between you being granted continued existence, and you receiving yourself the self same judgment that you would so zealously impose on the rest of the world if only you had teh power."

So he used some grand sweeping statements, but some of these things are very accurate. A Dutch film maker WAS killed by extremists, and extremists have crashed planes into buildings and have likewise tried similar hijackings of planes. You want him to not list such real world events. And he is right in the fact that continued acts such as these will cause their nations bother (awake the sleeping giant) and whilst he's using a lot of rhetoric, possibly badly, he's being fairly honest. So you'll undoubtedly whitter on that I support him in this, well I did in this vid, his later ones were the ones I had issue in. But I ask you this, have you ever lived under serious threat of terrorist activity? I mean really, not just a nebulous thing where some random group might possibly decide to try and do something in a city, but actual fair game target to hit. I'll be coming back to this later....

And to quote his video 'Death Threats from 'moderate Muslims'

"All you can do is broadcast to the world that you're a bunch of nasty deranged religious nutters from some barbaric middle eastern cult

To say that thunderf00t chose his words clumsily is simply excuse making. Indeed the Muslim user who quite understandably made an angry and passionate response, which thunderf00t spun into some kind of veiled death threat, apolgised for some of the words he admits to choosing rather carelessly and took down said videos.

Whilst TF might have been clumsy don't you think the other guy was too? The points go to Dawah though as he retracted and pulled down the vid, it was still a video based slapping match though.

While I accept that free speech is important, and am a strong proponent of it, I find it absolutely disgusting that anyone believes it's acceptable to demonise an entire group of people in the name of it. I also find it equally disgusting that the so called "reasonable" free thinkers choose to either make excuses for it or ignore it entirely. Particularly offensive was a portion of AndromedasWake's response on the League Of Treason Forums.

Freedom of speech IS important as is not badmouthing an entire group, but reality check time.....you are doing PRECISLEY that by whittering on about your league of treason shite, and it really is shite. You have failed to separate the individuals from the community and are getting the effects of it on this thread. Now I know for a fact you'll whinge on about not meaning the rest of us but using that bastardisation of league of reason you ARE! Again I will restate my point that you are making a child like over simplification. If you are going to try and claim the high ground on this one make sure you aren't lumping everyone into the same bag, if you had approached this in a reasonable manner you'd have come in and spoken to the membership that actually uses the forums and chat room and you would have been able to not make such a glaring pigs ear out of this. Instead you've mixed the pot and the kettle up and can't work out which is blacker.

"I make a point of not running my mouth on topics outside of my field of expertise. I have friends who've studied international relations to the same degree I've studied astrophysics, and I'm aware that my knowledge of politics is about as offensive to them as hearing people with no knowledge talk about the Big Bang and advanced cosmological concepts is to me."

Jesus fucking Christ Andromeda. Do you need a degree or expertise to discuss someone committing character assassination against someone else? Or their demonisation of an entire religious group? How about their use of false propaganda, such as thunderf00t using an image of a "mass child wedding" in the "Draw Mo' Over 9000 Edition" video? For more on that one I'll direct you to a video in the description by the user NoelPlum99.

I know AW picked this up, but I'm going to comment too. You've misrepresented the guy here and in a bad way. And you whitter on about the 'clique' being reasonable and you open up in that manner. Yeah, sure sounds very reasonable to me. I'm convinced.

Thunderf00t however went on to destroy the character of the Muslim user DawahFilms. He portrayed Dawah's response as some kind of death threat and said things like:
"What'cha gonna do, come to America and start gunning people down on the street that disagree with you?"

That happens in fights, especially internet ones, and whilst baiting isn't perhaps the most intellectual tactic in the world when the red mist descends it's going to happen. So whilst the behaviour as such might not be reasonable in of its self, when you sit down and think about it there is a reason for this sort of behaviour be it an actual fight or an internet slapping match.

And proceeded to portray the angry look on Dawah's face with the caption "The baneful stare of the 'religion of peace'

Well he had perceived a death threat from the guy, so he won't think very highly of him. By the way if it wasn't obviously I'm mostly picking apart and dissecting what's happened, you know doing the reasonable thing of trying to work out what's gone on and why the slapping match has started or is continuing.

And during the barrage of racist comments left by THUNDERF00T SUBSCRIBERS, the same people that Thunderf00t convincing that he'd been threatened, there was not one comment of condemnation from thunderf00t or anyone else in the League.

You know there were likely as not an equal number of TF subs that weren't posting racist remarks, I know as I was one of them, so that's another count of you tarring me with some brush or other. And given the mood TF seemed to be in do you think he cared about what we being posted. And also the fact that the league doesn't assume accountability has already been covered. Yes TF was a dick about this, but Dawah wasn't perfect either, it's a slapping match so what do you expect?

But on the subject of character assassination thunderf00t was not the only guilty party. To a lesser extent this was also carried out by the user antybu86.
Antybu86 said the following in his PM

"Finally, DawahFilms is an asshole. See my video, "The Hatred in Islam" for example. Be skeptical before buying his bullshit."

You know, and I am open to correction on this, I don't recall seeing antybu86 posting much on the forums, and they've definitely not been in chat that I can remember. So again you are lumping someone else into LoR that might not be part of the community, but as I said I'm willing to be corrected on that. I've personally never seen and of this YTers vids so I've nothing to go by on them, but I do wonder now if you are on some manner of crusade or not.

Firstly I was skeptical unlike a large percentage of yours and thunderf00t's audiences which is why I didn't immediately join the anti-Dawah camp.

Hold up there champ, you were what not? Do you know how simplistic and how gross an understatement you've just made there. Have you actually found out who did or did not agree with TF in this from both his and AW's subscribers? You didn't, I'm subscribed to both and I don't recall being asked by you at any point what I thought about this, I'm not even aware if you'd have had the time or inclination to even just do a head count of the people from either side of the slapping match involved. So how the hell can you say 'a large percentage' without pulling that from your arse. I want some evidence for that thank you very much, you are the one that's made this very bold statement and I'm calling you out on it, put up or shut up.

But anyway, I watched your video and I watched Dawah's with a critical mind. By no means do I agree with Dawah on every subject but I have some strong points of contention with your video. When you use the clip of Dawah saying "Really we shouldn't even have to be speaking out." You try to make it appear as if Dawah is accusing you of saying he has to speak out rather than what it actually was, which was Dawah stating that he doesn't believe that moderates are obliged to speak out against the actions of the extremists. And on that point I will say he is quite right. If you're willing to do the smallest amount of research you'll find there are plenty of moderates that do speak out against Muslim fundamentalists. The problem is that people like you, thunderf00t and the racists and bigots that this debacle gave credence to, will never be satisfied no matter how many Muslims speak out. Indeed the quote you displayed after saying Dawah misquoted you. And I'm quoting you here.

"I have noticed that whenever some fanatic does something crazy the religious moderates of the same faith seem to rarely speak out against it in public."

is debunked by a simple Google search.

And your last quote in the video was completely hollow and callous where you accuse Dawah of hate speech after as I mentioned before he made a passionate and angry response to thunderf00t's video almost endorsing genocide of Muslims.

Given that I've just had to call you out on something that I'd be surprised if you could quantifiably demonstrate how in any way does that make you legitimately able to call TF out on this. You've just done pretty much the same thing as you accuse him of; you've made an unsupported statement. So really, Mr Pot, stop beating on Mr Kettle and show some of the integrity in research that you appear to be demanding that others do.

Thunderf00t also used the excuse of moderates remaining silent in his first video South Park vs Islam. He at no point mentioned the fact that Dawah supported the idea of Draw Muhammad day and although Muslims are t forbidden to draw an image of the prophet he did propose that they take part through calligraphy. Nor did thunderf00t ever mention the campaign by SamiZaatari to respond peacefully by posting passages honoring the prophet on a facebook page.

Whilst there were a lot of us here aware of the whole draw Muhammad day and a number of us joined in not everyone did, and those that joined in that I'm friends with were all able to decide for themselves if it was the sort of thing they wanted to so no sheeping going on. I was personally aware that there was some counter suggestions in terms of thing Muslims could do in response but to be honest since I've yet to do any vids for you tube I just ignored it all.

The ONLY member of the League to even mention this was AronRa. The only member of the League that seems to show any kind of integrity.

To the first sentence here I don't remember any public outcry on you tube from the bulk membership of the league, I recall it coming up in chat and there was a general tone of 'wtf is he doing' but nothing that we could voice with him directly. And as to your other little gem here, how very fucking dare you, as I've already pointed out you've come here and posted this on the forums, you've poorly defined who you addressed at the start and have effectively lumped the rest of us in with those that you have a beef with. So how DARE you come here and whinge about the LACK of integrity of others when you don't even have integrity enough YOURSELF to take you beef to the individuals in question. If you don't like that I'm turning this on you then tough shit, being utterly frank. This strikes of what I've already commented on, a child like simplification, which I am aware I might be miss reading but then what you will be unaware of if how extensive my experience of children is compared to most average people and again to be frank it's nothing I deem that you need to know right now but rest assured is required I will bring in a friend or two that could attest to this. Hmmm......very long sentence there, best to be read in the style of AronRa's epic monologues

And while his quotation about the silence of moderates is completely untrue, I would like to ask why now so many people are so eager to hear moderates speak out against the extremists involved with their religion. Did anyone ask Christian apologists TogetherForPeace or JesusFreek777 to speak out against the actions of Scott Rhoeder after he shot Dr. George Tiller or the wave of Christians, even pundits like Glenn Beck who attempted to justify it?

Now you see this is where you fall down again for your poor opening, but let's tuck in. Now I can only speak for my own experiences but I already knew that from your average Muslim perspective that extremists weren't considered real Muslims because of their actions (there was a guy from Omar on my degree that I did some field work with a few times). Likewise I've spoken to Christians I know IRL and they don't approve of this sort of thing in the name of their god. And also I would like to point out that as you are also British despite the overriding secular nature of our country we also have a national psyche that up until however many decades ago when religion stopped being the 'in thing' as it where that is heavily grounded in Christian thinking. So I would say that if you wanted a yard stick to how Christians en mass might respond to this you could just gauge the opinion of the people round you IRL and you'd possibly end up with a fair approximation. I'd say all to most of the Americans I know despise the likes of Glenn Beck, so that's why I personally wouldn't get antsy over asking them to denounce the guy, because they already do.

Or should they be asked to speak out against the distasteful actions of the Westboro Baptist Church?

Umm.....have you ever done a search on YouTube for vids on this matter, a hell of a lot of people ALREADY speak out about this group, they are widely known for their batshittery. Are you aware of a group called the patriot riders, all ex servicemen and women from the states that are ardent bikers that go to the funeral that this collection of all that is wrong with religious lunacy try to interrupt and are acting as a barrier between said loons and the funeral? I'd say that the nation as a whole has given its views on this group enough that asking specific people to call them out is just a little silly.

Did any of you ever ask Catholic moderates to speak out against the bombings of British streets and the murder of Protestants committed by the fundamentalist Catholic group known as the IRA?

Bugger the religious lot, especially as sectarian violence over there during the heyday of all this was a major tit for tat fest, I've got some VERY special things I would personally love to do to this lot but that would in fact make me not better than them. Suffice to say that I have a strong and valid reason to detest this lot irrespective of religion, because the religion had nothing to do with their bombing of the mainland and their targeting of British service men and women and their families. But that's a whole other kettle of fish.

No? Then why should moderate Muslims have to speak out against the crimes committed by people who's only common ground with them is the fact they read the same book but came to different conclusions about it?

They should unless they wish to be lumped in as backers of it, or unless they wish to show a lack of moral strength, however so just don't expect them to come running to me to denounce such acts. As I said I'm already aware that your average Muslim doesn't consider the extremists to be acting on behalf of Islam even though they claim to.

But anyway, lets move on to the second issue I brought up with the League. Intellectual dishonesty. Thunderf00t has a history of mocking those that refuse to debate or try to move the goalposts when they are challenged to a debate. For example, when DonExodus2 attempted to debate NephilimFree, thunderf00t was quick to point out Nephilimfree constantly changing the subject, and making every other objection under the sun to the debate going ahead.

You know in some respects this is actually getting tiresome, notwithstanding the issue that you've failed to separate the individuals you with to vent your attempt as spleen at from the rest of the community but also because of the standard of English deployed. Many might say I'm sinking to a low point here to pick this up but given that I've dropped Shredders post in its entirety to word so that I can get this done it's got a shitload of the little squiggly lines under it, and I'm freely able to call him out on it as I'm using word to proof my SPAG. But anyway, I'm over 2 thirds of the way through this, possibly at the bottom of the ninth if I borrow from American baseball parlance so here we go my friends, once more unto the breach, once more, let us face what we see here with fortitude chaps and know that our path is indeed righteous and our goal noble.....I may yet be some time.....

Ahem. You see as I don't personally move in the same circles as TF on this it's not like I, as a member of the League, am able to call him out on this. If I was I'd tell him he was being a bit of a tit and to pack it in, I certainly wouldn't bimble up to an open forum and start lambasting all un sundry and some perceived failure to take someone to task when said group has little way of speaking to him directly, I've always preferred to speak to people on the QT about such things and then help them make any public amendments as necessary. But then I guess it's all down to differences in style and all that, one could be argued as being more thought out and tactical and the other as something by someone who's just interested in causing collateral damage as opposed to maybe getting to the root of that matter. You know even if you AREN'T in for the collateral damage Shredder you've gone about this very arse about face imo.

Nephie had a perfectly good reason not to debate Don. He'd lose. But for thunderf00t to sneer at this kind of behaviour, and be widely praised for it, while engaging in it himself is ridiculous.

Hmmmm........now I don't profess to be up there in terms of keeping up on current affairs but I mingle for the cats in chat here on the site very regularly, we've certainly not been aware (to my knowledge at least) that TF has been behaving in this way, and I'm pretty sure I could say that if we had been aware of this our discussions on the matter wouldn't have been favourable. So assuming that the general membership here on the side wouldn't call him on such flagrant double standards is just highlighting how little you know of the community that is here, one that TF has very little to do with. So bringing your beef about his behaviour here is not the brightest of things to do.

When DawahFilms asked thunderf00t for a debate, thunderf00t sneered at the idea and declined, stating that he couldn't have a reasonable discussion with this person.

You know I've got a little secret for you, it's very hush hush now so I've got to be careful who hears this....

*peers about and checks the coast is clear*

{Psst.....TF is human like the rest of us and capable of getting things wrong}

Yeah, I know, shocking isn't it. Now I for one and not defending him, I'm just pointing out the fact that he's capable of being fallible, and it seems this potential is coming to the fore at the moment. By all means if you think it's appropriate to call him on this please do so, but do it to him not a collective to which he is only loosely associated with. Do you honestly think that expecting us as a site to admonish him is a reasonable thing to do? Come on.

Quite astonishing considering that the YouTube user HappieCabbie took up the offer instead. A user who has uploaded such scientifically educating videos as Mankini Milkshake, and great philosophy material like Death of Optimus Prime Balloon, was able to have a civilised back and forward debate where they even discussed taboo Islamic topics like Muhammad's 9 year old wife. Something a proponent of logic, discussion and debate could not do.

So you don't think HappieCabbie is up to the task? Is that what your inferring by pointing out he's not done very many scientific vids on YT? As I pointed out above TF is human, he has his foibles and it seems we've come across a big one, is it not a surprise that a different person, with an entirely different set of foibles, is more suited to do this? You know you almost sound as if you don't think that HappieCabbie is a proponent of logic because he's gone for humour, I've made no videos myself but if you ever search out the comments I've posted on vids I've gone in and sunk my teeth into various displays of idiocy on YT.

Now the League assures me that they do not screen the callers to their show based on their mental capacity. Which I believe them on. But thunderf00t's recent debacle on BlogTV with PhysicalConservative, dlandoncole and coughlan666 shows him to be afraid to debate anyone that knows what they're actually talking about.

So TF who already has a very loose association only with LoR has some encounter that is COMPLETELY separate to LoR in its entirety and you want us to call him out on it? Now given that I'm subbed to Coughlan I got to see his vids on the matter, which contain clips from the discussion. Yes, TF got owned publicly and went off to sulk about it, right or wrong that's what he did, and whilst you could probably say that Coughlan can be a bit emo like at times, childish too and I'd not know about the whorish but TF was out of order using the language he did on Coughlan. But that's got NOTHING to do with LoR so what do you expect us to do about it? Seriously, shall we come up with some manner of code that all of us have to stick to in all other interactions on the internet? That's not what LoR is about, it's a place where we can come and chat, talk about some reasonable things and in chat have a jolly good time goofing around between reasoned discussions. If you are going to whinge about something learn what it's about first before you come in here half cocked ranting your tits off.

He's more than happy to debate people who are possibly mentally retarded like TruthfulChristian and NephilimFree but won't debate anyone on his level. Let me explain what happened. During the discussion Thunderf00t attempted to pull facts and statistics out of his ass, and landon swiftly shoved them straight back up there without lubrication. Landon also became frustrated because each time he did this thunderf00t would persist to shift the goalposts and pull out more outrageous statistics. When coughlan finally entered the debate the discussion had moved on to Blasphemy laws. After Coughlan answered thunderf00t's question about whether or not Blasphemy laws exist in the western world, he then asked rather snottily "Well when was the last time they were enforced." Coughlan then explained to him that they have indeed been enforced in recent years particularly in Ireland. Thunderf00t attempted to then move the goalposts yet again by changing the discussion from the blasphemy laws themselves to people being killed over Blasphemy laws. As Coughlan started to call bullshit on this thunderf00t left the conversation and left a message with the user redfistofeurope showing EXACTLY how much of an intellectual giant he is by calling coughlan a "Childish Emo Whore".

As I said above I know this from seeing Coughlin's vids before his channel was taken down, whilst Coughlan may have been a smidgen drama queen like in his recanting of these events my own opinion came down on his side of things and I thumbed up his vid for it. But what more do you want me to do? Run over to Coughlan and act like some sort of sycophant to show I agree with him on this, a) it's not the sort of thing I'd do and b) from what I gather from the guy it's not the sort of thing he'd appreciate. I've already mentioned how I've got little ability to bring TF to task on this, because given the sort of things I'd have to say about this to him I'd prefer the quiet word in the ear approach not a public lambasting.

These are debating tactics I'd expect from Eric Cartman, HowTheWorldWorks or Brett Keane. NOT thunderf00t

I expect not to have to deal with someone that decided to bring a beef over here that they had with a specific individual when they have little to no association with us, especially as one of the other people you want to harrang has NO connection to us aside from knowing people that are loosely associated with us. But we don't always get the things we expect do we.

But the fact is that the rest of the League is willing to endorse Thunderf00t when he's crushing those that know nothing about what they're talking about, but will look completely the other way, when he is guilty of that same offense.

No we do not endorse these actions, we a collective of people that come here to discuss things, not to fan worship specific YTers. I suggest that you check out what goes on here before you make baseless assumptions about what goes on.

They are willing to openly and unapologetically condemn the actions of someone like VenomFangX when they attempt to assassinate the character of thunderf00t or dprjones.

Because the guy was an utter twat (no not triumph) and he was called on his behaviour. I'm also hoping that he is doing well and getting rid of the mindset that caused him to behave in such a twatish way, please note who it was that helped him. TF, DPR and others, so whilst TF might have crushed the arguments VFX was raising when it came to the actual person he was investing his time and effort into helping him to see that he needed to sort his shit out. Or did you forget that in your rush to call TF out for his unreasonable behaviour? Again I address the fact you demand reasonableness but don't seem to be able to give it yourself.

Yet when thunderf00t is guilty of those same tactics, they look the other way or make excuses for his behaviour. That is something I find distasteful, disgusting, immoral, cowardly and the very antithesis of Reason.

Ummmm.......no, in short. I can't speak to someone about something if they aren't in my social circles, if I tried a PM it would likely get lost in the sea of PM's he's likely to receive and whilst I could pass a message on via AW it's not the most adult ways of expressing disapproval over something someone he's said. Also as I've mentioned how reasonable is it for you to come here and kick up this shit storm (because be honest, it's what you've done) when you've got a beef with a couple of people, and despite the fact I'm going all broken record on this people that don't have any actual concrete affiliations to this community.

So what do I want you to do about it? That's the question that seems to be on the minds of everyone, from the League themselves to the users of the forums.

Oh I'm getting tired of this, the users of these forums ARE the League. Not some random bunch of YTers that don't participate here, the only people out of the group you are inaccurately referring to are AW definitely and AronRa loosely as he does contribute here albeit infrequently. Oh and I forgot we have Don Exodus popping into chat occasionally so he contributes a small amount too. But by and large the main contributions to THIS community are NOT by those that are big players on YT. Get it?

Am I demanding anyone makes a video? No. Am I demanding anyone apologise for any of this? No. In essence I'm not demanding anything.

Then why for the love of Hutton are you here?

But I think that for you to sit in silence or make excuses for bigotry while criticising people for the same things, is hypocritical and an absolute betrayal of reason.

No, we don't sit in silence and make excuses for bigotry, we call it out. I've been part of this in chat when someone has come in and been completely asinine in the things they've said. It's not our fault that you can't be arsed to check the facts because you're lazy.

All I ask is that you show some backbone and rather than make excuses for bigotry in your circle, you instead try and do what so many of you accuse religious moderates of not doing and SPEAK OUT!

Blahblahlblah.... You know, as I near the end of this my tolerance for your uninformed bitching is waning, so perhaps it's a good thing there isn't much left.

What, do you want us to announce to the world each time we discuss something in chat or here on the forums that we think is out of order? Again it's showing your base ignorance on the community here, there are those of us that make videos on YT and may or may not have denounced the deeds of the individuals you are bitching about, I couldn't say for sure who has or hasn't as I'm only subbed to a few people from LoR on YT, those being predominately the people I get on with and who's opinions I happen to value.

Until then I think the title of my last video is still valid, and I believe I've shown that indeed Bigotry has got the League Of Treason's seal of approval.

........

Yeah, right......give me one reason why I shouldn't default to the point AW made by referring to you as Cheddar in his reply. I mean come on, it looks like you've rammed your head deep up your own arse......possibly to the seeking out new life and new civilisations and going where no self appointed chastiser has gone before.....

{This reply was brought to you by Scientists working to enrich non fissile Womblonite that was mined from areas that had undergone secondary enrichment and concentrated recycling and enriched to fissile Womblonium 232 in a deuterium reactor. The research and development team responsible for this found that they needed hazmat suits made of reinforced irony as during testing it was discovered that it caused so much sassery radiation as to render most of the testing ranges uninhabitable for the next 4 billion years. The device was loaded into a launch tube and fired to ensure a Womble-grade rebuttal. Dr QuadError is said to deny all involvement in this process.}


Now lets see if this posts in one or if i have to snip it up a bit so avoid breaking the boards and incuring the web hampsters wrath....

 

[DonExodus]

Have a nice day

 

[borrofburi]

Oh, wow.
What an interesting and subtle change to the Title Banner.

When your title is facetious and in good humor, it's not hard to make it a little bit more facetious.

 

[australopithecus]

Well that was 20 minutes of my life I'll never see again. At least I get the banner change now.

tl;dr

Tf00t et al made some majorly misguided comments/videos during the whole DMD thing. People do stupid things *shock* and they were called on them, sometimes in public, some in private. We as a community have zero responsibility to babysit anyones YT channel, and nor would we. Tf00t is on the LoR show because he is quite a good scientific commentator and can refute creationist nonesense well, and yes he fucked up with a few stupid videos but we, and certainly not AW, are his keeper. If he fucks up on a LoR live show then fair enough, but what he does on his own time is his choice and the consequences are his. Taking a cheap shot at this community because he has a limited association is much like branding Volkswagen evil because Hitler designed the VW Beatle, or Starbucks is immoral because the Washington Sniper popped in for a coffee a few times.

 

[lrkun]

Well that was 20 minutes of my life I'll never see again. At least I get the banner change now.

tl;dr

Tf00t et al made some majorly misguided comments/videos during the whole DMD thing. People do stupid things *shock* and they were called on them, sometimes in public, some in private. We as a community have zero responsibility to babysit anyones YT channel, and nor would we. Tf00t is on the LoR show because he is quite a good scientific commentator and can refute creationist nonesense well, and yes he fucked up with a few stupid videos but we, and certainly not AW, are his keeper. If he fucks up on a LoR live show then fair enough, but what he does on his own time is his choice and the consequences are his. Taking a cheap shot at this community because he has a limited association is much like branding Volkswagen evil because Hitler designed the VW Beatle, or Starbucks is immoral because the Washington Sniper popped in for a coffee a few times.

I think he said it as he should have ^^.

 

[UNFFwildcard]

Tf00t et al made some majorly misguided comments/videos during the whole DMD thing. People do stupid things *shock* and they were called on them, sometimes in public, some in private. We as a community have zero responsibility to babysit anyones YT channel, and nor would we. Tf00t is on the LoR show because he is quite a good scientific commentator and can refute creationist nonesense well, and yes he fucked up with a few stupid videos but we, and certainly not AW, are his keeper. If he fucks up on a LoR live show then fair enough, but what he does on his own time is his choice and the consequences are his. Taking a cheap shot at this community because he has a limited association is much like branding Volkswagen evil because Hitler designed the VW Beatle, or Starbucks is immoral because the Washington Sniper popped in for a coffee a few times.

While is should not be called a responsibility per se, there is a necessity to 'babysit' troublemakers as the consequences are not just their own. Every time some chalatan Christian does something illegal or idiotic, that negatively reflects upon every other Christian - myself included. Their choices do indirectly hold consequences for me. This can be made quite evident by the xenophobia and jingoism that emerged within the united states against all Muslim people after a petty handful of them decided it would be a good idea to suicide attack choice US military and economic targets using hijacked commerical aircraft. Those 19 individuals had just as much autonomy in their decision making as Thunderf00t did when he decided to capitalize on such actions through his rhetoric and blanket stereotyping. In terms of the public perception to whichever group such individuals were affiliated with (whether it be youtube atheists or all muslim people) the consequences of individual choice to either group affiliated were analogous. This is the price you pay for a group identity.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

While is should not be called a responsibility per se, there is a necessity to 'babysit' troublemakers as the consequences are not just their own. Every time some chalatan Christian does something illegal or idiotic, that negatively reflects upon every other Christian - myself included. Their choices do indirectly hold consequences for me. This can be made quite evident by the xenophobia and jingoism that emerged within the united states against all Muslim people after a petty handful of them decided it would be a good idea to suicide attack choice US military and economic targets using hijacked commerical aircraft. Those 19 individuals had just as much autonomy in their decision making as Thunderf00t did when he decided to capitalize on such actions through his rhetoric and blanket stereotyping. In terms of the public perception to whichever group such individuals were affiliated with (whether it be youtube atheists or all muslim people) the consequences of individual choice to either group affiliated were analogous. This is the price you pay for a group identity.

Two points:

1) We don't have a 'group identity' here. We're barely able to hold together a "we" around here. Besides not breaking the forum rules, there's no sort of orthodoxy of viewpoint that unites all of us, and no deviation from a standard worldview will get you booted from here. We don't have an group identity in the way you imply.

2) Proof of that can be found in our own previous interactions. I don't think we've ever agreed on anything, and yet there's a place for both of us on this site. What would you like "us" to do to T-f00tie that shouldn't be applied to you, or to me, or to anyone who happens to disagree with someone else?

 

[australopithecus]

While is should not be called a responsibility per se, there is a necessity to 'babysit' troublemakers as the consequences are not just their own. Every time some chalatan Christian does something illegal or idiotic, that negatively reflects upon every other Christian - myself included.

Only if you're engaging with the type of person who judges a group on the actions of a few which I admit is a lot of people. I don't judge Christians on the Westboro Baptist Church, Nephilimfree or paedophile preists. I judge Christians on an individual basis on their own actions, not as a whole. The fact that the OP decided to brand all of us as unreasonable because we didn't live up to his standards is a joke. The sad part is with regards to his video about Pat Condell I actually agree with pretty much everything he said. But he doesn't have a leg to stand on when he attacks us because tf00t at best is only a minor player in this community and FvR isn't a part of it at all.

It's simply not our job to call everyones buillshit, there's not enough minutes in the day, but tfoot was called on his bullshit both here and in private by members of the community and by AW himself. So we didn't blanket him with videos? If he wanted a public display then he should do it on his own time.

This can be made quite evident by the xenophobia and jingoism that emerged within the united states against all Muslim people after a petty handful of them decided it would be a good idea to suicide attack choice US military and economic targets using hijacked commerical aircraft. Those 19 individuals had just as much autonomy in their decision making as Thunderf00t did when he decided to capitalize on such actions through his rhetoric and blanket stereotyping. In terms of the public perception to whichever group such individuals were affiliated with (whether it be youtube atheists or all muslim people) the consequences of individual choice to either group affiliated were analogous. This is the price you pay for a group identity.

We all agree'd tf00t dropped the ball, big time. But it really isn't up to us to pick it up for him and show him. The fact still remains that his assocciation with the LoR is paper thin at best so make a blanket statement about us for not attacking a blanket statement by tf00t (even though many did attack it) is hypocrasy of the highest order.