Israel ?

[xxdjsethxx]

Hello Everyone I am new here, and decided to make a post wondering if anyone else feels about the same way...

I have been Ponder over Israel's land desires, we all know it's really based upon religion that "God" gave the land to Israel and so on, so I am not going to go into a deep rant about that issue since I think most of us would agree on the outcome it self.

I am just curious how things would had played out if Israel (Jews in general) would had thought Hmmm picking this land in the middle of a very hostile area might not be such a good idea, maybe we should settle for a nice area just off a European country or somewhere other then the middle-east. Yea I know they will claim that the land was giving to them via their god, that's one reason I sometimes dream of No Religion then you wouldn't have this mess. However I wonder what would had been the outcome if they did think of all this before hand and picked somewhere that was not so hostile. They have enemies in all directions.(other then to the west somewhat because of the Mediterranean Sea)

I understand they wanted their own land, but the religion part played so heavily into it. I once heard somewhere that the Middle East is just a big Chess Board in terms, Many Christians (maybe even others) not only Want, but they Need Israel to be in place and be destroyed so they can have the end days come about and they can say Check-Mate! So in a way Many Christians were wanting them to be there just waiting for this to happen.

I just wonder if anyone else notices the craziness in this?

 

[scikidus]

I am just curious how things would had played out if Israel (Jews in general) would had thought Hmmm picking this land in the middle of a very hostile area might not be such a good idea, maybe we should settle for a nice area just off a European country or somewhere other then the middle-east.

If you knew your history of Zionism, you'd know that for a while Theodore Hertzl pushed for moving the Jews to Uganda. Also, it's not just like it was a destination becuase the Torah says so: many Jews said that we shoudl resist returning to Israel until the coming of the Messiah. The Jews had live din Israel for centuries before the the Diaspora, and quite a bit of Jewish history lies there. A lot of the hostility in the Middle East today arises because the British promised the land to two groups simultaneously.

In short, the problem is more political than religious.

 

[xxdjsethxx]

I understand it's more political then religious but is it not true that religion wise for the "end of days" to happen Israel has to be there to be destroyed? Correct me on how it's all suppose to go down if I am wrong, been awhile since I read into that lol

 

[scikidus]

I understand it's more political then religious but is it not true that religion wise for the "end of days" to happen Israel has to be there to be destroyed? Correct me on how it's all suppose to go down if I am wrong, been awhile since I read into that lol

According to Judaism, the Messiah will return (riding a donkey), the Jewish dead will come back to life, and we'll all go and live happily ever after in Israel.

We dont' have to be there, and nothing is said about anyone else, I believe. Again, the decision to have the Jewish state in Israel was more political and historical than religious.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

If you knew your history of Zionism, you'd know that for a while Theodore Hertzl pushed for moving the Jews to Uganda. Also, it's not just like it was a destination becuase the Torah says so: many Jews said that we shoudl resist returning to Israel until the coming of the Messiah. The Jews had live din Israel for centuries before the the Diaspora, and quite a bit of Jewish history lies there. A lot of the hostility in the Middle East today arises because the British promised the land to two groups simultaneously.

In short, the problem is more political than religious.

Yeah, there was a whole lot of European antisemitism that played out as support of Zionism, as well as European colonial aspirations in the Middle East, and racism against Arabs. It isn't too much of an oversimplification that the Europeans wants the Jews out of Europe, were willing to give them part of the Middle East where their influence was waning, and if the Jews and Arabs wiped each other out there would be no tears shed over it.

 

[Aught3]

It's not like all the Jews got together and voted on were they all wanted to go. They basically all got packed on a ship, sent to a strange land, and had to make the best of it. You could argue that they didn't do a very good job of that last part.

 

[theatheistguy]

Post-WW2 the Jewish had a choice, stay in Europe which was still very anti-semitic, or move somewhere else. Many stayed in Europe but most went to one of two places, America and Israel (created for them in 1948 by removing land from many countries, mainly Palestine, but consulting next to no one from those countries). Since then Israel has annexed and illegally occupied a butt load of land to gain resources (mainly water) and they don't care what they have to do in the process (hence the 40 year conflict with Palestine which reared its head in the media before the new year).

The Jewish in America used their influence with the government to get money and arms regularly sent to Israel so they could expand their borders. They now have one of the largest armed forces in the world (some estimate it to be the 4th largest, although I'm not sure how accurate that is).

Yes, the government of Israel today still use their religious dogma as an explanation, although only for the same reason that the America's government do, control of the people. Napoleon said that there was no easier way to control a nation and it seems to be true. Israel expands its borders for power, money and resources, it considers anything, anyone and any nation that gets in the way as nothing, and as soon as anyone objects, the anti-semitic card is played.

Antisemitism = bad
Anti-Zionism = good and there are many Jews who agree.

 

[Dirigoproductions]

Outside of biblical text, it amazes me why or how so many people believe modern day Israel even belongs to the Jews themselves? True it was given to them in 1948 as a result of WWll, but the land was never theirs to begin with?

Biblical scriptures actually point out the land of Israel and Jerusalem was theirs and yes Moses led them to their "promised land". However, the Hittites and Kittim actually lived there centuries before the Jews claimed it. The Samaritans also provide a strong case for the land of Israel being theirs as well.

Regardless, no historical or archaeological documentation supports their claims that Israel is in fact theirs. The Jews in fact abandoned Israel during the diaspora never to return to Israel until it was deemed theirs as a result of WWll. When the Jews came back, the Palestinians had already occupied their "supposed" land since they had originally left there during the Second Roman-Jewish war.

To sum up, their claims and assertions are false and groundless. How can anyone claim something is theirs when in fact it was never theirs to begin with? Today its called stealing, which is exactly what the Jews did with Israel.

 

[Talos]

Well, being an Israeli I suppose I should comment here.

first of all regarding your original post post xxdjsethxxx, I have to agree to it mostly... if it wasn't for religion this entire mess would haved been largely avoided (there would have been a conflict regarding who has the right to live here, but I doubt it would be ever near as heated as now due to the lack of religious nutcases inciting people. and personally I would love it if you were right (Europe sounds much better then this desert)

now, moving on

According to Judaism, the Messiah will return (riding a donkey), the Jewish dead will come back to life, and we'll all go and live happily ever after in Israel.

not precise... you forgot the Gog and Magog war... a war which will take place at the end of times, when a coalition of nations, headed by gog king of Magog will fight the Jewish people, that war will be the hardest and most brutal war ever but in the end God will make Magog surrender using miracles and all the world will know of gods existence... and the Massiah will come riding a white donkey from the North of what is believed to be the city of Zfat at the end of the war, the dead will be revived and afterwards they will kill some kind of magical whale, and use his skin to cover the righteous and let the people feast on its flesh and live happilly ever after in the holy land (Which is actually bigger then modern day Israel... its suppose to be from the Mediterranean to the Prat river in Iran). according to some sources this Gog and magog war is meant to kill the "wicked" - in short the usual apocalytical bullshit... I'm ashamed I actually believed this shit as a kid

They now have one of the largest armed forces in the world (some estimate it to be the 4th largest, although I'm not sure how accurate that is).

I wish it was true, Israel has the most advance Army in the middle east, and is among the most advance armies in the world - thats true but from a pure numerical point of view the Army is fairly small (which isnt surprised considering theres only ~7 million citizens - not too much soliders to take) Israel is actually 31st in Army size with 176,500 soldiers (but during war times, when theres a general draft it could reach up to ~50,000 troops) and also, another reason why Israel has a relatively large Army is because people have to serve 2-3 years in the Army from the age of 18 (3 years for men, 2 for Women) and men must serve 1 month in the Army every year until the age of 45.

and finishing off with this part:

Outside of biblical text, it amazes me why or how so many people believe modern day Israel even belongs to the Jews themselves? True it was given to them in 1948 as a result of WWll, but the land was never theirs to begin with?

Biblical scriptures actually point out the land of Israel and Jerusalem was theirs and yes Moses led them to their "promised land". However, the Hittites and Kittim actually lived there centuries before the Jews claimed it. The Samaritans also provide a strong case for the land of Israel being theirs as well.

Regardless, no historical or archaeological documentation supports their claims that Israel is in fact theirs. The Jews in fact abandoned Israel during the diaspora never to return to Israel until it was deemed theirs as a result of WWll. When the Jews came back, the Palestinians had already occupied their "supposed" land since they had originally left there during the Second Roman-Jewish war.

To sum up, their claims and assertions are false and groundless. How can anyone claim something is theirs when in fact it was never theirs to begin with? Today its called stealing, which is exactly what the Jews did with Israel.

Well, the Hitties and Kittim and all the other people that lived there are either exitinct or assimilated to other nations, so theres really no way to give them back. about Historical are Archaeological evidence there is quite alot of evidence showing Israel had a kingdom there, and about leaving them that too is inaccurate as there are Babylonian account saying they conquered Israel, and then there were countless of other conquerers and re-conquers (Since Israel was also located where many trade routes passed - like the Silk trade route) There was a Part where the Muslim empire conquered Israel (and then the Palestinians settles there). the reason there were almost no Jews then is simply because every time Israel was conquered, Jews migrated away from the fighting (which ended up displacing them all over the globe)

and lastly, my final argument is that your whole argument of "claiming" countries is pointless... after all the Americas were Originally Indian, then European settled there... then the colonies revolted... so who really "owns" America and who stole it? Same can be said regarding almost every other country - everybody took lands, and those who were strong enough kept them.

 

[theatheistguy]

I wish it was true, Israel has the most advance Army in the middle east, and is among the most advance armies in the world - thats true but from a pure numerical point of view the Army is fairly small (which isnt surprised considering theres only ~7 million citizens - not too much soliders to take) Israel is actually 31st in Army size with 176,500 soldiers (but during war times, when theres a general draft it could reach up to ~50,000 troops) and also, another reason why Israel has a relatively large Army is because people have to serve 2-3 years in the Army from the age of 18 (3 years for men, 2 for Women) and men must serve 1 month in the Army every year until the age of 45.

Why would wish that? And I referred to the whole armed forces, not just soldiers.

Also you have/had the States as an ally so you essentially had the largest army anyways. However, whether or not it was the 4th or 31st largest, the conflicts waged (especially that against Palestine) have been against countries much much lower, with no allies, and in some cases using defending themselves with home made rockets.

The IDF has used human shields, including children and is refusing any outside investigations. The IDF has fired upon innocent civilians including children, a few stories that jump to mind are the boy throwing rocks at tanks, or the boobie trap that 4 children walked into, or the families told to evacuate to a hospital as it was a safe zone, only to have that hospital bombed, or the family trying to retrieve the body of their dead daughter, but were fired upon every time they came out of cover, eventually risking their lives when dogs started tearing limbs from the corpse.

Biggest or smallest, the Israeli army is not a force for good, and the government controlling them are power mad, wanting nothing but more land and resources, using religion as an excuse and brainwashing their population.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Biggest or smallest, the Israeli army is not a force for good, and the government controlling them are power mad, wanting nothing but more land and resources, using religion as an excuse and brainwashing their population.

You've got that right. The Israeli army is currently one of the strongest forces for evil in the world today, only falling behind some of the genocidal African governments, and surpassing any country in the Middle East. Granted, some of the Islamic dictatorships would LIKE to be worse, but they don't have the ability to commit the crimes against humanity that Israel engages in every day.

 

[GoodKat]

I would probably irradiate all of Israel if I could(giving time to evacuate of course). If the American government loves Isreal so much, they should just give them part of the midwest, I wouldn't mind.

 

[theatheistguy]

I would probably irradiate all of Israel if I could(giving time to evacuate of course). If the American government loves Isreal so much, they should just give them part of the midwest, I wouldn't mind.

Nah, create a replica Jerusalem in the Mexican desert, if you build it, they will come!

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I would probably irradiate all of Israel if I could(giving time to evacuate of course). If the American government loves Isreal so much, they should just give them part of the midwest, I wouldn't mind.

I've been proposing Jerusalem as a nuclear waste dump for about a decade now. Since they can't play nice, no one gets to live there, for at least a thousand years.

 

[scikidus]

I've been proposing Jerusalem as a nuclear waste dump for about a decade now. Since they can't play nice, no one gets to live there, for at least a thousand years.

Could you tone down your statements a little? I can hear my Jewish day school teachers screaming in disgust. :lol:

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Could you tone down your statements a little? I can hear my Jewish day school teachers screaming in disgust. :lol:

Ummmm... just downtown Jerusalem?

I'm not saying you don't evacuate the place first. You definitely tell folks first. I'm not suggesting that you just drop the nuclear waste in a warehouse somewhere, and the locals find out when they start giving birth to three-headed babies. You offer everyone a nice little chunk of change, enough to find a new and nicer place to live. Then you condemn the whole city to radioactivity for as long as possible. MAYBE by the time the place cools down, all the sides will have matured enough to move back in.

 

[Pulsar]

[Nah, create a replica Jerusalem in the Mexican desert, if you build it, they will come!

I love that. Jerusalem, Las Vegas style. Or create a theme park. Either way, the jews know how to make money.
"Mommy, can we go to the Horror House of Golgotha?"
"After we had dinner at the Last Supper, sweetheart."