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Is belief in a god the "default state" for our brains?
- Thread starter Sparky
- Start date
joshainglis
New Member
If you can spare an hour, watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iMmvu9eMrg
You may find it even MORE interesting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iMmvu9eMrg
You may find it even MORE interesting
MachineSp1rit
New Member
uggh it's so long, it better be good.
p.s.
i love this -->
"elieve those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
~Andre Gide"
p.s.
i love this -->
"elieve those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
~Andre Gide"
Not really. A few points.
- When everything we care about can be taken away in the blink of an eye, and many of these things being beyond our control, we clutch at straws to deny this fact (ie God can stop it and if we pray he will do that).
- Like all animals, we infer causation instinctively (ie a light comes on and the floor becomes electric a few seconds later, a rat will quickly learn to associate the light coming on with the floor becoming electric soon after).
- We naturally question and try and learn. If we did not have language our greater thoughts on the world would largely be a personal thing, however the ability for ideas to spread from person to person means we can share these ideas. This is important as I believe without external influence, peoples thiestic beliefs would not be as formed.
Didn't watch the vid, so hopefully I'm adressing the topic.
- When everything we care about can be taken away in the blink of an eye, and many of these things being beyond our control, we clutch at straws to deny this fact (ie God can stop it and if we pray he will do that).
- Like all animals, we infer causation instinctively (ie a light comes on and the floor becomes electric a few seconds later, a rat will quickly learn to associate the light coming on with the floor becoming electric soon after).
- We naturally question and try and learn. If we did not have language our greater thoughts on the world would largely be a personal thing, however the ability for ideas to spread from person to person means we can share these ideas. This is important as I believe without external influence, peoples thiestic beliefs would not be as formed.
Didn't watch the vid, so hopefully I'm adressing the topic.
ImprobableJoe
New Member
Not in my brain...
I think it is more accurate to suggest that our brains are wired in a certain way that is then hijacked by religion. Part of the way we learn is from our parents, so we are wired to trust them absolutely as children. When they tell us useful things, then this is a good thing. When they teach religions, or when parents are abusive, it screws a person's mind up for the rest of their lives.
I think it is more accurate to suggest that our brains are wired in a certain way that is then hijacked by religion. Part of the way we learn is from our parents, so we are wired to trust them absolutely as children. When they tell us useful things, then this is a good thing. When they teach religions, or when parents are abusive, it screws a person's mind up for the rest of their lives.
WolfAU said:
This is somewhat covered in both the article and the video. Both source cite an experiment done on numerous groups of 4 year old children in which they are told a story about an alligator that eats a mouse. Afterwards the children are asked questions about the physical needs of the mouse - does it eat, sleep, etc and the children answer no. However when asked whether it still thinks roughly half answer yes. This emphasises our ability to separate mind and body. This is evolutionarily advantageous as it enables us to understand what other people/animals might do in some situation without having to see them so we can react accordingly. The other key factor is these children look into causation far to much. When asked what a tree is for they will say it is for shade, mountains are to climb, etc. It isn't hard to see that this belief that everything has a purpose and our ability to envision a mind without a body can easily lead to a default state of mind in which a deity makes the most sense.
This isn't perhaps the best explanation but it gets the bones of the article and video across. Watch the video. It is VERY good! The article I provided in the opening post covers much of the content of the video if you can't be bothered watching the video though
WolfAU said:
Sort of. The middle point you made was very close to one of the studies as I explained above.
ImprobableJoe said:
I wouldn't say that they screw up a person's mind for LIFE. I was taught to be a Christian throughout my childhood and was a Christian for 17 of my 20 years and I don't think my mind is warped at all. I would have preferred that my parents didn't teach me now though and had given me the option of choosing to believe myself.
ImprobableJoe
New Member
Sorry, I should have said "CAN screw up" because some people do OK. Many seem to suffer at least mild aftereffects for the rest of their lives, like former Catholics giving up the religion and still being stuck with the guilt.Sparky said:
On its own I wouldn't read too much into that as adults would probably answer as such rather than explain things like plate techtonics.Sparky said:
I'm not sure how convincing I find the argument, but there is no doubt we accept that there are things that we cannot see that can benefit and harm us (air, disease, toxins etc), and how many creation myths infer a being beyond the physical (ie one that is formless until it chooses to take form) is quite surprising.
I'll have more free time tomorrow so hopefully I'll watch it then, though I've heard arguments on this topic before.
Re screwed for life: The problem with religion is that in order to break free of it, a person has to accept certain things that many people resist.
- Chaos reigns, no fate, no destiny, no divine protection of the virtuous.
- No heaven, no, hell, no ultimate judgement.
- No Objective morality, theres nothing that makes your beliefs more correct than other unless supported by logic or evidence, humans are not (inherantly) special, no grand plan etc.
Also because they are taught these things often from birth, and need to completely redefine themselves (ie they base their entire belief system on religion), and often need to accept key figures in their life as being wrong.
SatanicBunny
New Member
The problem with studying or contemplating whether religion is "the default state" is that there is no true "default state". It could be said that a newborn child is in a default state but that's irrelevant to the point I think, for such a young child lacks the capacity to believe in anything at all.
With older children the problem of default state boils down to one thing: upbringing. A child does not grow up in a vacuum. The ideological enviroment he lives in always affects his thoughts - on some level at least.
What I'm trying to say is that parents esentially always push a child to one way or another. Religious parents can often - but not always - raise their child to be religious. Likewise parents who are not religious probably pass on a more scientificly oriented/"godless" world view to their children.
From the article:
This is all fine and well but if your parents have always told you there is no god whatsoever I doubt you have as "strong natural receptivity to believing in gods" as those who have actually been raised to believe in god(s). After all, for a young child parents are the highest authority when it comes to facts.
I'm not claiming it couldn't be possible for our brain to be "wired" in such a way that it supports and works well together with religion. I'm just saying that studying this with children is difficult because the religious atmosphere of the family the child lives in is likely to have so big an effect on his beliefs that it's practically impossible to find children who are, in any way "default state."
The only way to study this in a more reliable way, as the article suggest, is a leave a group of children to grow up on their own and see if they naturally develope a set of religious beliefs.
With older children the problem of default state boils down to one thing: upbringing. A child does not grow up in a vacuum. The ideological enviroment he lives in always affects his thoughts - on some level at least.
What I'm trying to say is that parents esentially always push a child to one way or another. Religious parents can often - but not always - raise their child to be religious. Likewise parents who are not religious probably pass on a more scientificly oriented/"godless" world view to their children.
From the article:
This is all fine and well but if your parents have always told you there is no god whatsoever I doubt you have as "strong natural receptivity to believing in gods" as those who have actually been raised to believe in god(s). After all, for a young child parents are the highest authority when it comes to facts.
I'm not claiming it couldn't be possible for our brain to be "wired" in such a way that it supports and works well together with religion. I'm just saying that studying this with children is difficult because the religious atmosphere of the family the child lives in is likely to have so big an effect on his beliefs that it's practically impossible to find children who are, in any way "default state."
The only way to study this in a more reliable way, as the article suggest, is a leave a group of children to grow up on their own and see if they naturally develope a set of religious beliefs.
Otokogoroshi
New Member
Children are pre-programmed to be curious, ask questions but also to believe what the parents tell them. This is for several reasons. If the child is too skeptical of their parents then they have a higher risk of injuring themselves. See my brother, who when told "Don't touch that it's hot" would instantly grab at said object. Then on the other end of the spectrum when I was a child and told that I would instantly pull my hand back.
We are not born blank slates "Tabula Rasa" (not just a shitty short lived MMO!) but sponges with a few built in parameters.
I really think this goes back to nature vs. nurture.
I'd type more but I'm hungry. I'll watch and read the links above when I get the chance. Just wanted to throw out this tidbit.
We are not born blank slates "Tabula Rasa" (not just a shitty short lived MMO!) but sponges with a few built in parameters.
I really think this goes back to nature vs. nurture.
I'd type more but I'm hungry. I'll watch and read the links above when I get the chance. Just wanted to throw out this tidbit.